Unfortunatly due to time restraints, I am unable to do this turnset. However i can still read the thread so don't put me in the skip roster. I did get a look at the save though, and I want to know why there is a spearman defending Chengdu when Qin has a mace right outside the city. Ah well.
SGOTM 05 - Misfits
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Qins mace is at 3.6 of 8 after killing two units. The bowman is headed there to back him up....
cnwjr
Warlord
Actually, instead of asking why a spearman is defending Chengdu, I'm more interested in why we kept the city instead of razing it? It has no useful features that I can see. All the resources around it are not built, and I can't see us getting a worker usefully employed there for a long, long time.
Also, I believe that the resources that went into taking it should have been directed towards Beijing or defending Nanjing, or taking the city north of Nanjing instead.
It appears that I am up next. I have the save, but will not play it for about 36 hours. I am not at my game computer, so I can't look at the save right now.
What are are near term and long term goals? What techs do we want to prioritize. What are we willing to give up to Cyrus to gain peace? Are we willing to change religions as I mentioned earlier to try to get peace and possible trades? I seem to remember that Asoka already has Gunpowder which we are currently researching, so we probably have nothing to trade to him other than getting open borders again. Do we want to get Qin's capital and then go after Asoka on the nearby island and his new city on our land? (that is probably outside of my time frame) What is our time frame for turnsets? Lately, they have ranged from 10-18 turns. 15 is probably reasonable, with a pause if something unexpected comes up. Once we get Qin's capital, do we want to right to Police State? Do we finish off Qin completely after taking his capital? Or start on someone else? Cyrus, perhaps, as he is a pain atm. Are there other questions that need to be considered that I haven't mentioned?
Also, I believe that the resources that went into taking it should have been directed towards Beijing or defending Nanjing, or taking the city north of Nanjing instead.
It appears that I am up next. I have the save, but will not play it for about 36 hours. I am not at my game computer, so I can't look at the save right now.
What are are near term and long term goals? What techs do we want to prioritize. What are we willing to give up to Cyrus to gain peace? Are we willing to change religions as I mentioned earlier to try to get peace and possible trades? I seem to remember that Asoka already has Gunpowder which we are currently researching, so we probably have nothing to trade to him other than getting open borders again. Do we want to get Qin's capital and then go after Asoka on the nearby island and his new city on our land? (that is probably outside of my time frame) What is our time frame for turnsets? Lately, they have ranged from 10-18 turns. 15 is probably reasonable, with a pause if something unexpected comes up. Once we get Qin's capital, do we want to right to Police State? Do we finish off Qin completely after taking his capital? Or start on someone else? Cyrus, perhaps, as he is a pain atm. Are there other questions that need to be considered that I haven't mentioned?
Well astronomy will be tradeable if we get it soon? ummm says 51 turns at the moment? 43 at 60%.
I guess if we switch religions once we get the pyramids it wont hurt us much.
I think we peace and trade with the others whilst we wipe out qin shi and build up our economy.
Should we not destroy the Cyrus city near us before we declare peace?
I guess if we switch religions once we get the pyramids it wont hurt us much.
I think we peace and trade with the others whilst we wipe out qin shi and build up our economy.
Should we not destroy the Cyrus city near us before we declare peace?
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Well, we keep giving each other mixed messages... at least those who respond. Piko said wipe the cities out and raze them, cnwjr thought he'd keep some if they were good. My thinking was that copper, cows, and deer were worth it, plus all the chopping available. It would also make a good jump off point to razing the other cities.
I attacked the west flank for two reasons, one, if all Qin resources had gone to taking back Nanjing, we'd have never made it in time to reinforce, so I split his troops. Second, if I had sailed galleys across two ports, and Qin has a caravel, troops die.
Aside from that, I was doing troop build-up. Not sure where I changed our overall direction...
I attacked the west flank for two reasons, one, if all Qin resources had gone to taking back Nanjing, we'd have never made it in time to reinforce, so I split his troops. Second, if I had sailed galleys across two ports, and Qin has a caravel, troops die.
Aside from that, I was doing troop build-up. Not sure where I changed our overall direction...
cnwjr
Warlord
The initial invasion force should have been strong enough to hold Nanjing if it stayed there. We don't have enough forces to split off into multiple directions or targets. How many troops were lost taking Chengdu? Those troops would have been better used to take (or try to) Beijing or reinforce Nanjing if it had problems when the troops arrived in that area.
If a caravel had suddenly appeared and killed a galley, that is the breaks. You have to go on anyway or you will never succeed in the main goal. A couple of extra galleys for protection would usually suffice. Or two galleys each carrying one unit so that only one goes down.
The suggestions I had made for keeping cities talked about resources we don't have, or critical ones to deny to the opponent. Copper and cows are neither. Also, we should mainly be concerned with developed resources, not ones that need a worker to develop. Forest is a minor production boost, but I don't feel it is enough of a reason to take a city.
I'm not really trying to assign blame, just explain my reasons. In the long run, it depends on who is playing the turnset. Just try to be guided by the overall goals.
If a caravel had suddenly appeared and killed a galley, that is the breaks. You have to go on anyway or you will never succeed in the main goal. A couple of extra galleys for protection would usually suffice. Or two galleys each carrying one unit so that only one goes down.
The suggestions I had made for keeping cities talked about resources we don't have, or critical ones to deny to the opponent. Copper and cows are neither. Also, we should mainly be concerned with developed resources, not ones that need a worker to develop. Forest is a minor production boost, but I don't feel it is enough of a reason to take a city.
I'm not really trying to assign blame, just explain my reasons. In the long run, it depends on who is playing the turnset. Just try to be guided by the overall goals.
cnwjr
Warlord
Assuming we manage to get Beijing, do we want to see if Qin will sue for peace and perhaps give up a tech or three? This serves tech gain and gives a bit of time to build up.
I would like to either go after Cyrus (at least his near city) or make peace. We are not really strong enough to fight on two widely separated fronts. Also, Cyrus is closest to Qin, so he can come after us that way as well.
If I recall correctly, Cyrus had a galley w/settler near our western lands and our galley a bit out of place to kill it.
Also, as mentioned previously, Asoka will soon cut off our connection between north & south if we don't get open borders back. Gifting time again?
I would like to either go after Cyrus (at least his near city) or make peace. We are not really strong enough to fight on two widely separated fronts. Also, Cyrus is closest to Qin, so he can come after us that way as well.
If I recall correctly, Cyrus had a galley w/settler near our western lands and our galley a bit out of place to kill it.
Also, as mentioned previously, Asoka will soon cut off our connection between north & south if we don't get open borders back. Gifting time again?
Aye, well hows this for an idea, take beijing, sue for peace, then go take cyrus's city then go for peace with him and then redeclare on qin?
Edit: if cyrus really wants that city for some reason he may not give us peace so early. i.e. if its his only source of oil or such. i assume if we raze the city then he would be more likely to go peace cause he can't demand his city back.. and i guess asoka will rebuild there? *shrug*
Edit: if cyrus really wants that city for some reason he may not give us peace so early. i.e. if its his only source of oil or such. i assume if we raze the city then he would be more likely to go peace cause he can't demand his city back.. and i guess asoka will rebuild there? *shrug*
cnwjr
Warlord
If we go after Cyrus's city, we should probably raze it. Between revolt and Asoka's culture pressure, it isn't likely to be worth much (unless we also take out Asoka's city.)
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
We ought to consider razing the city north of Nanjing to relieve the cultural pressure. His troops are dwindling, and he no longer has iron.
Can we get to Cyrus? I'm pretty sure Asoka has us blocked in.
Asoka is teching up pretty fast... If we don't get after him, we're going to be hurting. Not sure how we pull that off, but it concerns me.
cnwjr
Warlord
Well, after a quick look at the actual situation, we are unable at present to go after Cyrus.
We have no connection to his landmass as long as we have no open borders with Asoka. He, on the other hand, can reach us as he is working peacefully with Asoka.
This pretty much means that we focus on Qin. Even if we DOW Asoka, we still cannot reach him except for the little city on our island. As he will outpace us with culture, we will never cover the distance to his lands.
We will thus need Astronomy.
After Gunpowder, I will switch to Astronomy.
If i see an easy breakpoint, I will try switching to buddism to see if we can reopen borders with Asoka and get an easy peace/tech trade with Cyrus.
Any other suggestions or desires in the next little while?
I'll be playing in about 12 hours.
We have no connection to his landmass as long as we have no open borders with Asoka. He, on the other hand, can reach us as he is working peacefully with Asoka.
This pretty much means that we focus on Qin. Even if we DOW Asoka, we still cannot reach him except for the little city on our island. As he will outpace us with culture, we will never cover the distance to his lands.
We will thus need Astronomy.
After Gunpowder, I will switch to Astronomy.If i see an easy breakpoint, I will try switching to buddism to see if we can reopen borders with Asoka and get an easy peace/tech trade with Cyrus.
Any other suggestions or desires in the next little while?
I'll be playing in about 12 hours.
cnwjr
Warlord
Well, that was fun... not much of interest here. Mostly moving troops.
Chengdu was recaptured on the first end of turn. No chance to reinforce.
Nanjing gave us production for a single turn, then revolted for an additional 6 turns. It hasn't revolted since, so we have been getting production (gold).
Asoka has liberalism.
We learn paper (barb) and gunpowder. Astronomy started.
We learn Philosophy and Engineering from the barb bleed.
Made peace with Cyrus (finally!). Gave him Philosophy for peace. First, however, I killed off his little city on the two seafood island north of Mecca.
I tried my idea of changing religions. Didn't get much from it except open borders again with Asoka.
There is a caravel just to the east of Beijing. It is there to keep Qin from resupplying by sea. He did that once before the caravel was on station.
Chengdu was recaptured on the first end of turn. No chance to reinforce.
Nanjing gave us production for a single turn, then revolted for an additional 6 turns. It hasn't revolted since, so we have been getting production (gold).
Asoka has liberalism.
We learn paper (barb) and gunpowder. Astronomy started.
We learn Philosophy and Engineering from the barb bleed.
Made peace with Cyrus (finally!). Gave him Philosophy for peace. First, however, I killed off his little city on the two seafood island north of Mecca.
I tried my idea of changing religions. Didn't get much from it except open borders again with Asoka.
There is a caravel just to the east of Beijing. It is there to keep Qin from resupplying by sea. He did that once before the caravel was on station.
cnwjr
Warlord
I think it should be an easy turnset. Build troops. Move to Qinland. Kill Qin, starting with capital, then city north of Nanjing. I doubt there will be much else. 
There are a couple of cats at Beijing, with at least one more on the way. Other troops are waiting on our mainland to be picked up. I grabbed a worker in passing and it is going along with the cat. I'd use it to build a road in that woods next to Nanjing. Then, of course, after we take Beijing, it can rebuild stuff that was pillaged.
It might be possible to sell our map to Cyrus. Everyone else has it. We can get a bit here and there from exploring the dark zones (to us). I have one of the caravels out doing that.
There are a couple of cats at Beijing, with at least one more on the way. Other troops are waiting on our mainland to be picked up. I grabbed a worker in passing and it is going along with the cat. I'd use it to build a road in that woods next to Nanjing. Then, of course, after we take Beijing, it can rebuild stuff that was pillaged.
It might be possible to sell our map to Cyrus. Everyone else has it. We can get a bit here and there from exploring the dark zones (to us). I have one of the caravels out doing that.
OK! hope this satisfies requests
1628 - micromanaged cities reaching unhappiness and created 3 specialists.
1631 - gifted banana to alexander to improve relations after losing open borders.. again
1634 - gifted clam to cyrus to improve relations
niether of these could be traded to anyone for any gold. they can both be ended now however only asoka has gold per turn and has everything we have to trade.
1637 - maceman in beijing, waiting for backup.
1640 - Asoka takes seville!!
1643 - Our economy dead, i sell gunpowder after tokugawa acquires it, making him and asoka, i figured they might trade, gained 1100 gold. worth it?, we are sitting on 80% science now
1646 - BEIJING OURS! And one dead chinese great prophet.
1649 - oh gee, Police State!
1652 - some unhappiness in larger cities now due to no MP anymore, building markets in all 3 for +1 with silk, and if they big enough to be low on happiness now, they can have a market.
1664 - Alex changes civics.... trying to build economy perhaps... beaurocracy, mercantilism and organised religion! could make him weaker? *ponder*
1667 - GUANGZHOU DESTROYED
No revolts in nanjing since taking beijing.
Units in chinese territory, if not in a city? pillage square where they stand! well.. let the workers work hehe.
3 workers in china earning a living, a few workers in our capital living off government handouts... lazy buggers.
Everyone was poor all turn. and yes i took their reserves with gunpowder, with our tech rate still at 80% we are losing 72 a turn (about) need to improve economy more ourselves.
qin shi will give all his gold reserves and max per turn and world map for peace. we don't need gold right now, he has education and banking, sounds good to me!!! so i think since units are all about to pillage in chinese territory, and have plenty of units...... I was thinking we take their new capital before he can build it up (and perhaps the city east of it), and that may be enough to get some tech off of him? atleast pillage before trading for peace with him, hit him while he's down but i say!
1628 - micromanaged cities reaching unhappiness and created 3 specialists.
1631 - gifted banana to alexander to improve relations after losing open borders.. again
1634 - gifted clam to cyrus to improve relations
niether of these could be traded to anyone for any gold. they can both be ended now however only asoka has gold per turn and has everything we have to trade.
1637 - maceman in beijing, waiting for backup.
1640 - Asoka takes seville!!
1643 - Our economy dead, i sell gunpowder after tokugawa acquires it, making him and asoka, i figured they might trade, gained 1100 gold. worth it?
, we are sitting on 80% science now1646 - BEIJING OURS! And one dead chinese great prophet.
1649 - oh gee, Police State!
1652 - some unhappiness in larger cities now due to no MP anymore, building markets in all 3 for +1 with silk, and if they big enough to be low on happiness now, they can have a market.
1664 - Alex changes civics.... trying to build economy perhaps... beaurocracy, mercantilism and organised religion! could make him weaker? *ponder*
1667 - GUANGZHOU DESTROYED
No revolts in nanjing since taking beijing.
Units in chinese territory, if not in a city? pillage square where they stand!
well.. let the workers work hehe.3 workers in china earning a living, a few workers in our capital living off government handouts... lazy buggers.
Everyone was poor all turn. and yes i took their reserves with gunpowder, with our tech rate still at 80% we are losing 72 a turn (about) need to improve economy more ourselves.
qin shi will give all his gold reserves and max per turn and world map for peace. we don't need gold right now, he has education and banking, sounds good to me!!! so i think since units are all about to pillage in chinese territory, and have plenty of units...... I was thinking we take their new capital before he can build it up (and perhaps the city east of it), and that may be enough to get some tech off of him? atleast pillage before trading for peace with him
, hit him while he's down but i say!Spoiler :
cnwjr
Warlord
Wonderful. Sounds like a very successful turnset.
Do we try to finish off Qin? Or get peace (preferably get any techs) with him and recover a bit?
For production, we can get a couple of markets (only useful when we are putting commerce into gold) or build a few harbors (increases trade).
If we leave Qin to lick his wounds... whom do we go after next?
How long to astronomy? What after astronomy?
Alex sounds like he is preparing for war. In case it might be against us, make sure we have a couple of defenders in each city.
Do we try to finish off Qin? Or get peace (preferably get any techs) with him and recover a bit?
For production, we can get a couple of markets (only useful when we are putting commerce into gold) or build a few harbors (increases trade).
If we leave Qin to lick his wounds... whom do we go after next?
How long to astronomy? What after astronomy?
Alex sounds like he is preparing for war. In case it might be against us, make sure we have a couple of defenders in each city.
cnwjr
Warlord
I think we should be primarily building units at the moment. We have to kill, kill, kill. We can get gold via pillaging and destroying/capturing other cities.
We also need to keep aware of our relative power so we don't get attacked. We are currently 4th in power, behind Asoka, Toku, and Alex. As Alex has taken away our open borders and is building for war with someone, we need to watch very, very carefully.
A side note. If/when we are going into a building phase, we need to switch to Organized religion for the building bonus. Probably Police State is also a bad option when building. Police State and Theocracy are best for building combat troops.
We need a couple more courthouses to counteract the drain, but lowish priority.
We are a long, long way from the next useful combat tech. All the following are after Astro (13 turns)
Options are:
Chemistry (grenadiers) 24 turns
Steel (cannons) Chemistry + 44 turns
Military tradition (cavalry) Nationalism (23) + 32 turns
Rifling (riflemen) banking (5) + printing press (21) + replaceable parts (29) + 38 turns
All this assumes no changes in research pattern. We need to grow, and grow our cottages->towns. They must be worked as well as built.
I think printing press should be our next goal. It gives us +1/+2 on our heavily developed towns. This will help us most for funds/research. It is also on the path to the most useful units (barring cannons/artillery/bombers) and such.
As a warning, everyone now has gunpowder, including Qin. One of the minor drawbacks of trading a military tech away. It becomes cheap enough for almost anyone to get.
We also need to keep aware of our relative power so we don't get attacked. We are currently 4th in power, behind Asoka, Toku, and Alex. As Alex has taken away our open borders and is building for war with someone, we need to watch very, very carefully.
A side note. If/when we are going into a building phase, we need to switch to Organized religion for the building bonus. Probably Police State is also a bad option when building. Police State and Theocracy are best for building combat troops.
We need a couple more courthouses to counteract the drain, but lowish priority.
We are a long, long way from the next useful combat tech. All the following are after Astro (13 turns)
Options are:
Chemistry (grenadiers) 24 turns
Steel (cannons) Chemistry + 44 turns
Military tradition (cavalry) Nationalism (23) + 32 turns
Rifling (riflemen) banking (5) + printing press (21) + replaceable parts (29) + 38 turns
All this assumes no changes in research pattern. We need to grow, and grow our cottages->towns. They must be worked as well as built.
I think printing press should be our next goal. It gives us +1/+2 on our heavily developed towns. This will help us most for funds/research. It is also on the path to the most useful units (barring cannons/artillery/bombers) and such.
As a warning, everyone now has gunpowder, including Qin. One of the minor drawbacks of trading a military tech away. It becomes cheap enough for almost anyone to get.
cnwjr
Warlord
I think we need a couple of missionaries. There are a few cities we have now, including Qin's, that are not Christian. Also, it might be a good idea to send a taoist missionary back to our mainland as we own the shrine. Every city with the religions gains us more gold.
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