SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

I just spotted a coast tile SE of Qin next to the continent (west of persepolis). If so, and if Qin makes contact, we definitely have to get Qin first...

And since the WB cannot gap the ocean, it has to return S (to Alex) although with the detour to scout east of QinGate

Good eyes :goodjob:. There is also a suspicious tile east of Beijing, indicting that there's land there. I'm again seeing patterns and suspect that Qin is coastal connected to the continent, but we need a culture bridge to reach anybody but Sal.
We can reach something :crazyeye:, W, NE and SSE with culture. I don't believe that it's such easy that we just can go SE and everything is connected. But even if this is so, the culture bridges will pay off for easier transport.
 
4 fpt => 2 pop / 10 turns which is enough (actually too much).
Excellent rationale, Erkon. Wrong, but excellent. :rotfl:

Here it is, folks, and listen carefully. ALL OF YOU, because this is also vital for WW. HEAR ME? Straight out of Obormot's mouth.

Poprushing 101
We do NOT need to grow our pop all the way up (to pop4, for example, if we have only 3 happies). No need although we can if we don't mind the angry face. Note: This works when we poprush for 1 pop-point from almost pop3 and almost pop4. To poprush for 2 pop-points we either need to go all the way up to pop4, of course, or almost up to pop5, etc.

Example: To grow to pop4, technically we need 39:food:. With our granary, when we poprush down to pop3, the granary will keep half of 36:food: = 18:food: plus anything we have in excess of 18 up to 36:food:. So, to make the pop fall from almost pop4 (36/39:food:) down to pop3(36/36:food:) [ha ha], we need only 36:food:, not 39:food: (= pop4). Presto.

Erkon's Idea
We need 41:food: to bring our pop from pop2>pop4 and 41:food: for pop3>almost pop5 for poprushing purposes.

For two cities that's 82:food:.

4:food: surplus * 15 turns = 60:food:
5:food: surplus * 15 turns = 75:food:
6:food: surplus * 15 turns = 90:food: Bingo!

Each city needs 3:food: surplus, minimum. So with the banana farm and 2:food: in each city, technically we don't need a farm if we're poprushing units. The problem comes in when we need to grow the pop back up AND build a settler up to 61+ hammers for the poprush. For this, even with two farms and 1 unchpped forest still available, we can't poprush sooner than every 17 turns. Luckily , we only have a couple more urgent settlers to make.
 
We still don't know for sure that we need a cultural bridge to Alex, because NE of the Gold Peninsula there is a wb-reachable land tile.
 
10 turns faster. 30:hammers:/3:hammers:/turn = 10 turns. Let's wait to see, but if we're ready 10 turns is HUGE. ( or is that forest on plains, i forget?

Yes, it's forest on plains. I don't want to chop it either.

I'm starting to think that the Stonehenge is actually a good investment (90 hammers once instead of 45*N hammers for all cities). When will mysticism be done automatically? In 20 turns? Perhaps we should spend a turn or two when Persepolis is close to finish the barracks? Then if Persepolis does not start SH, perhaps we should do it?

Klarius, we need masonry in order for the barbs to build it in 13 turns...
 
Why irrigation?
As long as we have workers/settlers in the mix we like to have more food. For the stable pop-rushing while growing, you're right. But also it's nice to have some food tiles in reserve, if happiness increases and one wants to grow fast.

What cities are we planning? As I see it, we can either settle one or two cities more on our continent (pre-IW):

Klarius Klam (stone + clam) + Gold City (gold + rice)
or
Drojf

I suggest the twin cities, since they will both be profitable and we can use poprush more efficiently with two cities than one.

We then have QinGate (and another nice city on the island NW of QG. Plains/hills + fish + clam => good whipping opportunity even without granary and lighthouse)

This means we need another 2-4 settlers. What do you think?
KK is out IMO. That doesn't pay off enough, with all the other cities we're planning. I'm still undecided about gold. As we really need a lux urgently, I'm currently favoring Drojf.

Ok, there are already a bunch more posts, rather send this before it gets too old ;)
 
Klarius, we need masonry in order for the barbs to build it in 13 turns...
No the stone is already hooked up. You don't need masonry for that.

BTW, how about another underhanded idea (I don't think we really can implement it).
Build a city, get it to Asoka in peace and let him hook up stone. Problem is only that we would need to gift him a worker and will probably not get OB to do so right away.
Or later if somebody has calendar and we can not be bothered to research it, let him build a plantation for us.
 
As long as we have workers/settlers in the mix we like to have more food. For the stable pop-rushing while growing, you're right. But also it's nice to have some food tiles in reserve, if happiness increases and one wants to grow fast. - Fair enough.


KK is out IMO. That doesn't pay off enough, with all the other cities we're planning. I'm still undecided about gold. As we really need a lux urgently, I'm currently favoring Drojf.

Ok, there are already a bunch more posts, rather send this before it gets too old ;)

KK will bring in 6:commerce: at size three, and if we pop rush from 4 to 2, the average income will be 5:commerce:

Assume we end up with four cities (MW, EK, Drojf and QG). What will the difference in maintenance be for KK? More than 5:commerce:?
 
And finally...

(drumroll)

Gnejs checking in!

(Big applause) (Wild cheers from LC) You missed me, didn´t you? I could tell, sweetie.


I have just read through the discussion so far. Very interesting, and very nice play so far :goodjob: (undoubtedly, that will change once we have to let Erkon play).

Unfortunately, I won't be contributing anything until next weekend since I will be slacking away on yet another week of vacation. :woohoo:
 
No the stone is already hooked up. You don't need masonry for that...

Is this different to Warlord? I have a vague memory that you cannot trade or connect resources that you don't have the tech for, but I'm not sure when I noticed that... :confused:
 
No the stone is already hooked up. You don't need masonry for that.

BTW, how about another underhanded idea (I don't think we really can implement it).
Build a city, get it to Asoka in peace and let him hook up stone. Problem is only that we would need to gift him a worker and will probably not get OB to do so right away.
Or later if somebody has calendar and we can not be bothered to research it, let him build a plantation for us.

Perhaps settle on top of the stone instead?
 
KK will bring in 6:commerce: at size three, and if we pop rush from 4 to 2, the average income will be 5:commerce:

Assume we end up with four cities (MW, EK, Drojf and QG). What will the difference in maintenance be for KK? More than 5:commerce:?
Well, we don't end up with 4 cities, I presume. :D
Every city increases the number of cities maintenance in every other city by 0.25+a little bit for population in the other city (little bit no problem for the sizes we have).
It will itself have a distance maintenance of 1-2.
At 4 cities KK is a clear winner. But longterm it might be a drag.
 
Perhaps settle on top of the stone instead?
Welcome :wavey:
I considered this a long time ago (w/o telling anybody), but 3 hammers max (30 turns for Stonehenge), with the possibility that one just loses the race, and ends up with a much suboptimal city put me off.
Edit:
Sure Erkon, one still needs masonry in this case. But that's no problem to get this.
It's just that the city can use it right away (instead taking forever to build a quarry) and has 2 hammers in the city center.
 
Welcome :wavey:
I considered this a long time ago (w/o telling anybody), but 3 hammers max (30 turns for Stonehenge), with the possibility that one just loses the race, and ends up with a much suboptimal city put me off.
Edit:
Sure Erkon, one still needs masonry in this case. But that's no problem to get this.
It's just that the city can use it right away (instead taking forever to build a quarry) and has 2 hammers in the city center.

I was more thinking that Erkdumkopfer (or whatever it is called) would build SH, but that would require both masonry (for the stone) and sailing (for connecting it), and I guess we have neither at the moment?

Exactly how suboptimal is it? We get a permanent +1 hammer from the start, but lose the benefit of a quarry which is what, +2h3c? (only when worked...)
 
Well, we don't end up with 4 cities, I presume. :D
Every city increases the number of cities maintenance in every other city by 0.25+a little bit for population in the other city (little bit no problem for the sizes we have).
It will itself have a distance maintenance of 1-2.
At 4 cities KK is a clear winner. But longterm it might be a drag.

Thanks, I didn't know how "number of cities" maint worked before. So by going from 4 to 5 cities, the total maintenance will increase with 1:commerce: + 4*little bit + ~2:commerce: distance maint. The net will be ~2:commerce: which is not much.

Do we plan to keep any of the cities we capture? I can't see any reason to keep Saladin or Qin cities unless they have mature cottages or gems. They won't contribute much to our unit count, will they? The distances involved together with the upkeep of the galleys needed will drain our treasury real bad. I think we can keep one or two of Alex cities. So the net effect of KK will be about 8*(.25 + a bit). Will that be a drag? I'm not advocating KK, I just want to know your expectations of future city count... :)
 
Btw, where can I get the HOF.SGOTM5 mod? The link in the maintenance thread doesn't seem to work (gotm.civfanatics.net down?)
 
I was more thinking that Erkdumkopfer (or whatever it is called) would build SH, but that would require both masonry (for the stone) and sailing (for connecting it), and I guess we have neither at the moment?

Exactly how suboptimal is it? We get a permanent +1 hammer from the start, but lose the benefit of a quarry which is what, +2h3c? (only when worked...)

The tile will be 1:food: + 4:hammers: with quarry, so the net difference (for working coast with lighthouse) is +1:food: +2:commerce: -3:hammers:
 
Btw, where can I get the HOF.SGOTM5 mod? The link in the maintenance thread doesn't seem to work (gotm.civfanatics.net down?)

Check your *tdc* mail :D

EDIT: sorry, the mod was banned by your supplier since it was offensive :lol:
 
Check your *tdc* mail :D

EDIT: sorry, the mod was banned by your supplier since it was offensive :lol:

LMAO! :lol:

Edit: I guess they have blacklisted you... :p

Edit2: Then rename it into something innocent-sounding, please. I need it before leaving early tomorrow morning...
 
Do we plan to keep any of the cities we capture?
We would like to keep:
Every city that has a few population points to rush.
Every city that has a few forests to cut.
Forget about villages or towns, pillage for a few coins.

We need troops out of captured cities. At some point, it gets irrelevant what we can build in our core.
 
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