SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[klarius]

Well, 2 or 3 turns are something like 20-30 commerce and other than the first 8 turns the commerce is the same, so this really has to be some random fluke.

It's not guaranteed that the human barb appearance is that late. The minimum is still 37 turns not the 43-45 we experience. It just needs better starting positions for the AI so they get their first settlers out earlier.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I plan to start taking it forward in 24h unless LC or one of the others manages to confuse the issue further.
Settle SE and aim towards Wkr>growth>settler and mining>BW start

I need another evening of testing. You won't be disappointed...

 

[Big Pig]

I plan to start taking it forward in 24h unless LC or one of the others manages to confuse the issue further.

I need another evening of testing. You won't be disappointed...

Unless its a very long evening, 24h ought to cover it then

 

[LowtherCastle]

Fkitall.
Need help here guys. Can't access the fking game till tonight and I'm trying to do this sreadsheet style...

I can't see how you guys can research BW in 39 turns. (2830bc). I figure we have
Mng 112 * 140% = 168
BW. 269 * 150% = 404
Total 572 / 39 turns = 15/turn

With 9 we start on Mng with 10/turn. With bananas we get 11/t.

With pop2 we max at 12/turn.

On BW we max at 12/turn * 120% for knowing the prereq = 14 /turn.

We never even get to 15/t.

WTH? over.

EDIT: IF we just look at BW, where there's no way we'll have 3 AIs knowing it:

404 / 14/t = 29 Turns. that means somehow you guys are researching mining in 10 turns. But even that's impossible because on the tenth turn we don't have pop2 yet...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Anyway, I guess the basic idea here is that our Grand Plan is for massive bloodletting ASAP so by bee-lining BW we get a free hoard of axes on our Barb Team. So that means,

I AGREE! with kl's plan: Mng>BW, wkr/grow/settler​

JUNGLE CREEP
One caution is in order. After farming the bananas and before Pottery comes in, we should farm the SOUTHERNMOST river tiles FIRST to (hopefully) beat down JUNGLE CREEP. Then the first cottage should be on the dyes... (hear that, BP? That means move the wkr S, not N... )

Scouting
I think the scout should bee-line toward whatever seems like a connection to other AIs. Later, she'll have ample time to scope out the land and as BP mentioned, the wkr will be able to scope out nearby tiles a bit.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@klarius: I may have missed this, but does your plan grow to pop2 or pop3 b4 >settler? I'm asking because based on your description of the added beakers for AIs knowing it, if 2 AIs know BW AND we have 13, then we qualify for the extra bekaers, right? (Floor(13 * 8%) = 1)

 

[Big Pig]

JUNGLE CREEP
One caution is in order. After farming the bananas and before Pottery comes in, we should farm the SOUTHERNMOST river tiles FIRST to (hopefully) beat down JUNGLE CREEP. Then the first cottage should be on the dyes... (hear that, BP? That means move the wkr S, not N... )

The first farmed tile should be the banana - but yes southern tiles with jungle border after this. I don't think we should cottage the dyes tho' - waste of cottage growth when we come to plantation them.

 

[Big Pig]

How are we going to get happiness? Beeline calendar or monarchy? (of course, we may find lots of gold and gems - but I doubt it)

 

[LowtherCastle]

This map has so many tiles, I think we won't need astro (at least not for domination) unless Gyathaar intentionally isolated us. Hence the dyes (Calendar) will never become a factor.

We need to find gold, gems, silver, ivory and minks, asap.

EDIT: I'm not certain Gyathaar wanted a long game this time, since the last one was so long...

 

[klarius]

Tech cost is tricky .
We are getting a 50% penalty for being teamed, but on the other side we are not playing really monarch, but the average of the difficulty levels of the team members. I haven't really found what difficulty the barbs are playing.
But here some cost out of the game:
Mining/myst 145
BW 351
Agriculture/TW 175
Fishing/hunting 117
Pottery 234
AH 292

I did not go to size 3 before settler. That might be an option (even to go to 3 before worker would be an option).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Tech cost is tricky .

Thanks. Feels better knowing at least someone is laughing at me...

Does that team average also affect our build costs, etc.? Guess not, huh?

 

[Big Pig]

I did not go to size 3 before settler. That might be an option.

Somewhat faster tech, significantly slower 1st settler (unless we want to invest 2 chops in the settler). Subsequent workers and settlers will probably be quicker tho' - all depends on how much land we have available for settling.

Best option here seems to be: grow size2>wkr>grow size3>settler

 

[Erkon]

...
Does that team average also affect our build costs, etc.? Guess not, huh?

This question is not as stupid as it appears. LC, I applaud your courage to ask questions knowing that the rest of the team will laugh at you.

 

[Big Pig]

Fkitall.
Need help here guys. Can't access the fking game till tonight and I'm trying to do this sreadsheet style...

I can't see how you guys can research BW in 39 turns. (2830bc). I figure we have
Mng 112 * 140% = 168
BW. 269 * 150% = 404
Total 572 / 39 turns = 15/turn

With 9 we start on Mng with 10/turn. With bananas we get 11/t.

With pop2 we max at 12/turn.

On BW we max at 12/turn * 120% for knowing the prereq = 14 /turn.

We never even get to 15/t.

WTH? over.

EDIT: IF we just look at BW, where there's no way we'll have 3 AIs knowing it:

404 / 14/t = 29 Turns. that means somehow you guys are researching mining in 10 turns. But even that's impossible because on the tenth turn we don't have pop2 yet...

Don't understand why, but at pop2 and only 1 commerce tile worked, BW was getting 13 beakers per turn (initially)

 

[Erkon]

In the early game, getting peace (or not) at the right time may make a big difference to how things turn out. Can I suggest that (at least in the early turnsets) we discuss any proposed peace deals between the group - particularly after the barbs capture a city?
Erkon may even like to make that Directive #1374.4

This means some of us have to be online during the session since you have to ALT-TAB while in the diplomacy screen. Perhaps we can already now agree on who we want to peace with? I would say yes to Alex, but no to Qin for example.

 

[Erkon]

Don't understand why, but at pop2 and only 1 commerce tile worked, BW was getting 13 beakers per turn (initially)

8 from palace, 1 from city tile, 1 from banana, +20% for knowing mining, 1 for the "avoid division by zero at all cost" = 13 bpt

 

[klarius]

Does that team average also affect our build costs, etc.? Guess not, huh?

Only for tech cost.
It would be also used in some evaluations for tech trading, but that probably isn't of any importance in this game.


Well, BP, 11*120% rounded down is 13, so that's not really a surprise.

 

[LowtherCastle]

No more questions, just answers.

Fastest research rates (mng>BW), w/o barb

A. wkr>pop2>settler SE: 2620bc...SW: 2620bc
B. pop2>wkr>settler SE: 2740bc...SW: 2740bc
C. pop3>wkr>settler SE: 2770bc...SW: 2800bc​

Note: In version C, depending on how soon 2 AIs learn BW, this could speed up 1-2 turns.

EDIT: In C, pop3>wkr... results in the same dates as pop4>wkr..., but pop4 = 90 for a poprush.

 

[LowtherCastle]

On declaring peace

@klarius: Do the WW calculations for the barb team function normally? That is, do we accumulate WW points on an AI-by-AI basis? In other words, is it possible that 90% of our WW points come from the barbs engaging in 90% of their battles with 1 particular AI, so that DoP with him alone will end our WW?

If so, then it's imperative that EACH PLAYER (take note Erkon) keep a running tally of all barb combat, AI by AI, so we know exactly how many WW points we have with each AI. (Unless there is some log that records all barbs battels for us.)

MM MADNESS--I LOVE IT!!!

 

[klarius]

That BW can speed up by 2 civs learning BW is not special to case C. The prerequisite bonus is summed up with the known civ bonus before truncation. 11 * 128% is already 14. But case C could be sped up already by one other civ learning BW.

WW points is team vs team. All combat losses of the barbs count as much as our losses. I don't think it's really possible to count all barb suicides. You don't really see every loss. Even if you have show friendly moves on (which is pretty annoying), you don't see them really losing on attack.