SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[LowtherCastle]

We probably should try to decide what we're going to attack with early on. Is it going to be mainly axes and catapults or faster moving units? If axes then we should get the copper hooked up. If not, then we might want to settle a different site first. LC's numbers look about right to me.

Bear in mind that hooking up copper also means +2 4. We can use them for axes, HAs, Stonehenge, whatever your heart desires... just not galleys...

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC, did you count the trade bonus once we connect Copper Town with MW?

Nope, forgot about that. Thnx.

 

[Erkon]

Nope, forgot about that. Thnx.

Does that mean Copper Town and Clam Drojf are -neutral?

 

[klarius]

We probably should try to decide what we're going to attack with early on. Is it going to be mainly axes and catapults or faster moving units? If axes then we should get the copper hooked up. If not, then we might want to settle a different site first. LC's numbers look about right to me.

Catapults for the early attacks . That's about as likely to win the competition as going for space race.
Swords or axes is the name of the game, at least as long as the defenders are archers. And if our barb friends do a good job that might be through most of the game. Chariots are a bit weak and HBR much to expensive to research.
That's assuming we don't need astronomy (pretty likely) otherwise one could think about it then.
But it doesn't help to build axes as long as we cannot transport them anywhere. So our first priority is still research.

Still there is a point . At some point we run out of useful builds. After pottery and granaries we want to be able to build axes for nice 2 pop rushes.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Does that mean Copper Town and Clam Drojf are -neutral?

I wasn't connecting Copper Town before we got roads... and with klarius gung-ho to build Gold CIty, not just then either...but I hereby order me to check out that possibility too...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, I've tried to optimize this, but I can't really find a better way than 1) klarius' way versus 1) my way to settle GC ASAP. As far as I can tell, my way has the gold mine online 4 turns sooner, so that makes up the gold, I guess. Mine also gets the wb out exploring early. The main trade-off is that klarius has the farm up and running earlier, which grows to pop3 in 7 turns instead of 9. Both seem to need until around T46 to build the 4th settler.

I did look a little more carefully at the research pace. I think we complete the Wheel on T12 and Pottery in the mid to late T20s. That means we could be finishing Sailing some time in the T40s. In other words, We could be planning to drop a couple axes on Sal about T50 and grab a couple free wkrs to help with cottaging and roading.

 

[klarius]

Ok, I don't believe in this extreme longterm predictions. There is e.g. one point: seems LC has completely ignored that granaries get available with pottery. When they are available you want to build them, even if that delays your next settler a bit.

If we neither build granaries nor cottages (as we are extremely short of workers in LC's evaluation), do we need pottery at all, or do we e.g. mysticism first, so our third city can build an obelisk right away.

And finally still the question: which copper city?
Not connecting the city as early as possible is clearly , economy wise. Erkons's city is obviously easier connected and has some more short term MM options.

And BTW, LC, building copper city ASAP, would mean pop-rushing it right away. That delays the wb 1 up to x turns (x depending on food - commerce priorities), but for sure a few turns make no difference even for the intelligence fanatics.

 

[Erkon]

klarius, it is now up to you to decide how to play. Analyse the info that LC has provided and make the best out of it. LC and I do not agree on the Copper Town location, so you have the final vote (unless someone else cast their vote).

Could you please revisit your plan and update it with potential new ideas? We could finalise the plans for your turnset.

Looks pretty straight forward for the next turn set (if nobody has any smart new ideas ).
Capital should grow to 4 after settler, building another work boat and 1 garrison.
Research first 1 turn wheel, then back to fishing to nab another turn of free beakers (feeling greedy ).
Worker finishes irrigation, does another irrigation on a jungle endangered river tile, then probably can start roading.
For clammy Drojf, I think worker first. Further digging in the code has shown that we pay 1g of number cities maintenance, if the second city grows to 2 (the algorithm is pretty obscure).
We want to be at 15 beakers for the pottery research (or do we want now something else first ), so we make max use of 40% prerequisite bonus. 2 river tiles in the capital and the clam should do the trick. But we then need the odd turn at 0 research to pay for the distance maintenance in the second city.

I would prefer if we could build those cottages at once when pottery comes online and I normally whip my granaries a few turns before a city grows, which may require planning/synchronization. I presume that we can get mysticism well before the 3rd city even if we start it after pottery, yes?

 

[Murky]

I'm not too sure about Erkon's dotmap. No offense, it just seems to be wasting a lot of tiles and not really hooking up all the good resources early on.

 

[Murky]

Catapults for the early attacks . That's about as likely to win the competition as going for space race.
Swords or axes is the name of the game, at least as long as the defenders are archers. And if our barb friends do a good job that might be through most of the game. Chariots are a bit weak and HBR much to expensive to research.
That's assuming we don't need astronomy (pretty likely) otherwise one could think about it then.
But it doesn't help to build axes as long as we cannot transport them anywhere. So our first priority is still research.

Still there is a point . At some point we run out of useful builds. After pottery and granaries we want to be able to build axes for nice 2 pop rushes.

What I often do is first use Axes to take low or no culture defense cities then once I have catapults take the capitials that typically have high defenses. We could just build more axes I suppose. Chariots work well too in some cases. Just depends on how quickly we can pop-rush enough units.

 

[klarius]

Well, I don't know what to do really with the different wishes of the other team members.
If we stay at high commerce pottery will come in in about 25 turns. According to LC we would then still have only one worker and probably send him on a trip to gold mine.

If we want a copper city first, we need another worker before a settler or our commerce will suck big time in the next 20-30 turns.
At the same time there is the wish to have a scouting work boat ASAP.

Ok, here my compromise plan:
Hand build settler, build Erkon copper city (will work only river grass to keep commerce high).
Grow capital to 3.
Pop-rush work boat with 1 turn to go and put overflow in worker.
Chop with switching to help the worker.
City built at turn 6.
Work boat at turn 15.
2nd worker turn 17.
Cities connected turn 15 (hopefully TW can finish in time).

 

[klarius]

I'm not too sure about Erkon's dotmap. No offense, it just seems to be wasting a lot of tiles and not really hooking up all the good resources early on.

Wasting tiles should be a non issue in this game. I don't see where from we want to get the happiness for big cities.
So I think we have to get our production by pop-rushing @ size 4 or 5.

 

[Murky]

Wasting tiles should be a non issue in this game. I don't see where from we want to get the happiness for big cities.
So I think we have to get our production by pop-rushing @ size 4 or 5.

Maybe we should do some testing first to find the most efficient method if that is allowed.

 

[Murky]

I'll be gone the rest of the day probably. Good luck.

 

[Erkon]

Wasting tiles should be a non issue in this game. I don't see where from we want to get the happiness for big cities.
So I think we have to get our production by pop-rushing @ size 4 or 5.

The dot map is intended for size5 cities. I'm not convinced though that pop-rushing will gain us much at those -rich and -poor sites.

 

[Erkon]

What I often do is first use Axes to take low or no culture defense cities then once I have catapults take the capitials that typically have high defenses. We could just build more axes I suppose. Chariots work well too in some cases. Just depends on how quickly we can pop-rush enough units.

That's how I play as well (archers on hills will walls need cats).

 

[Erkon]

Well, I don't know what to do really with the different wishes of the other team members.
If we stay at high commerce pottery will come in in about 25 turns. According to LC we would then still have only one worker and probably send him on a trip to gold mine.

If we want a copper city first, we need another worker before a settler or our commerce will suck big time in the next 20-30 turns.
At the same time there is the wish to have a scouting work boat ASAP.

Ok, here my compromise plan:
Hand build settler, build Erkon copper city (will work only river grass to keep commerce high).
Grow capital to 3.
Pop-rush work boat with 1 turn to go and put overflow in worker.
Chop with switching to help the worker.
City built at turn 6.
Work boat at turn 15.
2nd worker turn 17.
Cities connected turn 15 (hopefully TW can finish in time).

Since I dont have the LC-MM-skills I don't know how this compares to any other variant. What do you plan to build in Copper Town? Why not a worker? That would take ~15 turns if the river-grass is farmed... The CT-worker will then arrive just before we learn pottery (voila!).

Just play the way you feel comfortable. Our only request is that you play better then the rest of us

 

[klarius]

Since I dont have the LC-MM-skills I don't know how this compares to any other variant. What do you plan to build in Copper Town? Why not a worker? That would take ~15 turns if the river-grass is farmed... The CT-worker will then arrive just before we learn pottery (voila!).

Just play the way you feel comfortable. Our only request is that you play better then the rest of us

The river grass is not farmed initially and if I do so, I cannot chop for the worker out of the capital (though I contemplated it, but for growing). Even a farmed grass makes a worker in 23 turns. Make that 27 if the grass has to be farmed first, it's no better than the unimproved copper or a forest.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hi guys! My apologies for misunderstandings. I'm wordy, but I really try not to be.

Simplifications

1. I have two high-powered variants: klarius' and mine.
2. Both produce 1 more worker and 2 more settlers by T30.
3. klarius' produces more
4. My variant gets Gold City out faster, is ready for war on Sal sooner, and has very early exploration.
5. Both variants can end up looking the same otherwise, by about T50.

Clarifications

1. I am not in favor of either variation: it depends on our strategy, what we want to do.
2. I'm just looking for a pwerful MM to match our strategy.
3. My T30-T50 ideas (war on Sal) were not a PLAN, but just FOR PERSPECTIVE.
4. I have NOT ignored granaries. My plan was to T30, Pottery coming toward the end.
5. I DO NOT like Copper City 1W of mountains, BIG LOSS not having hill in inner city (for any build). No early specialization.
6. I DO like Erkon's idea of several pop4-5 prod centers, but have not studied his dot map.

Note:

1. I can post an excel chart showing both variants if anyone's interested.
2. This is a -poor, -poor island, guys. Things go slowly, building wkrs, settlers, granaries, etc. That's why it might be good to attack Sal ASAP for the free wkrs.

 

[Erkon]

The river grass is not farmed initially and if I do so, I cannot chop for the worker out of the capital (though I contemplated it, but for growing). Even a farmed grass makes a worker in 23 turns. Make that 27 if the grass has to be farmed first, it's no better than the unimproved copper or a forest.

I forgot we're playing Epic Still, the farmed river will generate one . Just a suggestion in case you want more workers...