The 'Nope' was his answer to your question. The '67890' was just to adhere to the ten character limit of the post. At least that is my observation of his post.
SGOTM 05 - Smurkz
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
The 'Nope' was his answer to your question. The '67890' was just to adhere to the ten character limit of the post. At least that is my observation of his post.
Ok here come the promised screenshots:
Fort Smurx:
Our Barbarian Sister City
This is the kind of city spots the AIs leave empty. Can't we make some kind of deal with the Barbs?
The Indian Crisis
I guess that poor little archer gives a whole new meaning to the term war weariness.
Fort Smurx:
Our Barbarian Sister City
This is the kind of city spots the AIs leave empty. Can't we make some kind of deal with the Barbs?
The Indian Crisis
I guess that poor little archer gives a whole new meaning to the term war weariness.
Well I wonder what hits first. That 1 in 1000 chance that one or two Barbs attacking in the same turn kill this guy. Or India finishing that wonder he is probably building. Would be fun to have the Barbs kill a Civ all by themselves.
DaviddesJ
Deity
We aren't going to achieve earliest victory by having the barbs slow down the AIs. We're going to achieve earliest victory by maximizing our own research and progress.
@DaviddesJ:
For sure. Barb could still help a little, and maximasing their help oculd be something though.
Anyway this brings us to victory condition choice.
- Diplo: tough since we are at war with anyone
- Culture: is culture, meaning it takes time (and religion usually)
- Time/Score:
- Space: longer than culture usually
remains
- Conquest
- Domination
Domination cannot be reached without a huge part of the big continent, Conquest is in my opinion tougher (even if I am more a builder, I am slowly starting seeing the beauty of pure military destruction
).
If plans are to go for military victories, we should push toward gaining a technological edge on the AI (can be sword/elephants/cats, or mace/LB, or grenades, these are the ones I am used to anyway, apart from some UU which is not the case here since Keshiks are, well, almost junk).
For sure. Barb could still help a little, and maximasing their help oculd be something though.
Anyway this brings us to victory condition choice.
- Diplo: tough since we are at war with anyone
- Culture: is culture, meaning it takes time (and religion usually)
- Time/Score:
- Space: longer than culture usually
remains
- Conquest
- Domination
Domination cannot be reached without a huge part of the big continent, Conquest is in my opinion tougher (even if I am more a builder, I am slowly starting seeing the beauty of pure military destruction
).If plans are to go for military victories, we should push toward gaining a technological edge on the AI (can be sword/elephants/cats, or mace/LB, or grenades, these are the ones I am used to anyway, apart from some UU which is not the case here since Keshiks are, well, almost junk).
Do you really belive we need a fst tech pace in this game. There is still a good chance that we might be able to reach the promised land wiithout Astronomy.
Also there is the problem, that the AIs will be much less inclined to trade with us, because our team has always teh -3 bonus for starting veil wars in the turn 0.
Also there is the problem, that the AIs will be much less inclined to trade with us, because our team has always teh -3 bonus for starting veil wars in the turn 0.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Domination or conquest will surely be fastest. I'm not sure that it will be practical to do either without Astronomy, even if it's possible in theory. Even if so, we'll surely need at least macemen or knights, and before the AI cities all have longbowmen. We'll also have to build up our cities to produce troops, and that won't be achievable with crippling WW.
I don't know whether we'll be able to do any tech trading, or not. I do think it would be very helpful if we can trade with one or two civs. It will also be very helpful if we can trade some resources.
It's too bad we can't give cities to the barbarians.
I don't know whether we'll be able to do any tech trading, or not. I do think it would be very helpful if we can trade with one or two civs. It will also be very helpful if we can trade some resources.
It's too bad we can't give cities to the barbarians.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Our opponents suddenly want to be paid for peace, and WW is hitting us faster than expected . Hm, maybe we should make peace whenever possible...
I like Davids plan for Karakorum, except about bringing back the warrior. We cannot afford to lose the copper spot IMO.
I would prefer to research sailing or IW at this point. If peace comes at a price, we need to be able to strike at our opponents asap.
There's a Greek border to our SE, just beyond the uninhabited island, and Alex has met Toku.
. Hm, maybe we should make peace whenever possible...I like Davids plan for Karakorum, except about bringing back the warrior. We cannot afford to lose the copper spot IMO.
I would prefer to research sailing or IW at this point. If peace comes at a price, we need to be able to strike at our opponents asap.
There's a Greek border to our SE, just beyond the uninhabited island, and Alex has met Toku.
DaviddesJ
Deity
WW is hitting us faster than expected
Not faster than I expected. I've said all along that we should make peace whenever possible.
Well, we can't pursue my plan without a warrior, because our city will become unhappy, even with no extra WW. If we want to rush a granary now, we have to either (1) recall a warrior, (2) build a new warrior, (3) stay at size 2 for at least 15 turns afterward [in which case the granary isn't doing us much good!], or (4) make peace to reduce our WW.
There's no way we can strike at most of our opponents quickly. We're going to have to set up cultural bridges, and that will take a really long time. A war in the near future, against anyone except Saladin, is totally unrealistic. Even against Saladin, it seems quite distant, compared to our immediate problems.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
I know we need the warrior for MP. So perhaps we can use the one under construction in FS?
Otherwise, perhaps finish the settler first, and then build a granary?
As for wars, I agree it will take some time, but so will researching IW and Sailing. Sailing has the added benefit of trade income and water connections (gold). IW has the added benefit of showing a resource and making the jungle tiles available, and our homeland will be quite nice once we get rid of all that jungle. Writing of course gives OB and libs, which may be useful, but maybe not yet...
Saladin (the AI in the south) seems reachable. And there can be a passage in the north, too, to Qin. There does not seem to be a passage straight east or west, unfortunately.
Otherwise, perhaps finish the settler first, and then build a granary?
As for wars, I agree it will take some time, but so will researching IW and Sailing. Sailing has the added benefit of trade income and water connections (gold). IW has the added benefit of showing a resource and making the jungle tiles available, and our homeland will be quite nice once we get rid of all that jungle. Writing of course gives OB and libs, which may be useful, but maybe not yet...
Saladin (the AI in the south) seems reachable. And there can be a passage in the north, too, to Qin. There does not seem to be a passage straight east or west, unfortunately.
DaviddesJ
Deity
If we're not going to be able to use pop-rushing in Karakorum in the near future (because of unhappiness/WW), then a granary there is not a priority. (Perhaps this implies that the whole Wheel-Pottery path was a mistake.) So in that case it would certainly seem reasonable to just finish the settler, now. We could just continue building warriors, settlers, and workers, while researching IW. We could also build a workboat in Karakorum for city #3 to use, or else we could let city #3 build its own workboat using the stone.
I am assuming, in contradiction to some of the dotmaps that have been posted, that we will build city #3 1N of stone, so that it has immediate access to clams and stone. This is a slightly inferior city location in the long run, but, if we build in the "optimal" long-term location, it will take a really long time to expand our borders to work any useful tiles. So I think we should build the city where it can grow now. Later, when we can clear jungle, we can put down another city that can work copper and also some of the hills to the east of the copper. I will try to post a dotmap later.
If we build some workers we can start connecting our cities by road. Connecting city #2 with city #3, for 2 commerce per turn, will not be hard. So I would not put Sailing at the top of the list (Writing or IW seem better to me), although I agree it will be nice to have.
I am assuming, in contradiction to some of the dotmaps that have been posted, that we will build city #3 1N of stone, so that it has immediate access to clams and stone. This is a slightly inferior city location in the long run, but, if we build in the "optimal" long-term location, it will take a really long time to expand our borders to work any useful tiles. So I think we should build the city where it can grow now. Later, when we can clear jungle, we can put down another city that can work copper and also some of the hills to the east of the copper. I will try to post a dotmap later.
If we build some workers we can start connecting our cities by road. Connecting city #2 with city #3, for 2 commerce per turn, will not be hard. So I would not put Sailing at the top of the list (Writing or IW seem better to me), although I agree it will be nice to have.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Another idea would be to build city #3 1W of copper, saving the clams/stone site for later. City #3 can build granary using the copper mine, while we research either Sailing (for lighthouse so we can profitably work coast) or Iron Working (to clear jungles) or Writing (to build library to expand borders).
The clams/stone city will be more useful in the short term (if we put it next to the stone and clams), because it can generate a few commerce directly, plus it can easily be connected to city #2 for +2 trade and +1 happy. But it does require a workboat build.
Unless we research Sailing before IW, we're going to want another worker soon, to start building roads. And accumulating workers so that we can start clearing jungle as soon as IW is available, is also a good idea. On the other hand, if we are going to use Sailing to connect our gold city backto our capital, then we could build settler #3 before any more workers.
The clams/stone city will be more useful in the short term (if we put it next to the stone and clams), because it can generate a few commerce directly, plus it can easily be connected to city #2 for +2 trade and +1 happy. But it does require a workboat build.
Unless we research Sailing before IW, we're going to want another worker soon, to start building roads. And accumulating workers so that we can start clearing jungle as soon as IW is available, is also a good idea. On the other hand, if we are going to use Sailing to connect our gold city backto our capital, then we could build settler #3 before any more workers.
If we need Astronomy to win this game, then our only objective at this point should be to get there as fast as possible. Everything else should be means to that end.
There's no way for us to end WW at this point. None of the AIs would take a straight-up peace, and we don't have the techs that enable us giving them either gold or tech. The only thing we could give them is towns, and I can't quite say I'd think that would be worth it.
Granaries seem a waste at this point. I would definitely finish the settler in K, followed by a warrior for MP duty while growing to 4. After that a second settler, or possibly a worker.
I would settle our third town by the stone. I agree with DJ about placement, in this case the short term gain far outweighs the long term in my opinion. Working the stone and clams from the start is crucial.
I think FS could build the WB for the third town after it finishes the warrior. Working the gold, the rice and the forest should give it in ~10 turns after the warrior finishes in 4. My prefered build sequence for FS would be Warrior-WB-Worker. Possibly throw in something that lets it grow to size 4 after the WB.
Research-wise I think we should focus on Astronomy and not veer off that path unless absolutely necessary. Sailing is a tech that none of the AIs have (so no loss from barbie income), and it would allow us to spread the happiness from the gold to all towns, allowing them to grow. IW shows us iron and allows us to clear jungle, but I think that can wait until after Sailing. Writing can wait until after the barbies give us AH, and Masonry I hope to get from the AI too (and it's not on the path to Astronomy).
I will write a more detailed plan once y'all have had a chance to comment about the above.
There's no way for us to end WW at this point. None of the AIs would take a straight-up peace, and we don't have the techs that enable us giving them either gold or tech. The only thing we could give them is towns, and I can't quite say I'd think that would be worth it.
Granaries seem a waste at this point. I would definitely finish the settler in K, followed by a warrior for MP duty while growing to 4. After that a second settler, or possibly a worker.
I would settle our third town by the stone. I agree with DJ about placement, in this case the short term gain far outweighs the long term in my opinion. Working the stone and clams from the start is crucial.
I think FS could build the WB for the third town after it finishes the warrior. Working the gold, the rice and the forest should give it in ~10 turns after the warrior finishes in 4. My prefered build sequence for FS would be Warrior-WB-Worker. Possibly throw in something that lets it grow to size 4 after the WB.
Research-wise I think we should focus on Astronomy and not veer off that path unless absolutely necessary. Sailing is a tech that none of the AIs have (so no loss from barbie income), and it would allow us to spread the happiness from the gold to all towns, allowing them to grow. IW shows us iron and allows us to clear jungle, but I think that can wait until after Sailing. Writing can wait until after the barbies give us AH, and Masonry I hope to get from the AI too (and it's not on the path to Astronomy).
I will write a more detailed plan once y'all have had a chance to comment about the above.
I would prefer building the 3rd City at the copper actually. It frees Warriors from scouting duty and gives us better long term potential instead of moving the stone city to a less than optimal spot. Due to war weariness we cannot use the full potential of a fast growth city like Stone/Clams anyway.
Bulbing Astro from 1 or 2 GS is "doable":
GS pref:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
we need Astro prereq (Calendar and Optics) and either the tech or not the prereq of the preferred techs:
Writing =>have
Mathematics => have
Scientific Method => no Printing Press
Physics => no Astro
Education => no Paper
Printing Press => no Machinery (doable)
Fiber Optics =>
Computers =>
The Wheel => have it
Philosophy => should have or no Meditation (since we'll need CoL)
Chemistry => no Engeneering (easy since no Machinery)
Fission =>
Fusion =>
Optics => have it (required)
Paper => no CS AND no Theo (ouch)
Astronomy
to be checked (I do not have game open right now)
Seems tough but...
GS pref:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
we need Astro prereq (Calendar and Optics) and either the tech or not the prereq of the preferred techs:
Writing =>have
Mathematics => have
Scientific Method => no Printing Press
Physics => no Astro
Education => no Paper
Printing Press => no Machinery (doable)
Fiber Optics =>
Computers =>
The Wheel => have it
Philosophy => should have or no Meditation (since we'll need CoL)
Chemistry => no Engeneering (easy since no Machinery)
Fission =>
Fusion =>
Optics => have it (required)
Paper => no CS AND no Theo (ouch)
Astronomy
to be checked (I do not have game open right now)
Seems tough but...
We need Machinery to get Astro since it's required for Optics. So the above doesn't seem doable to me.
I don't agree with settling the copper first. I don't see the need for releasing one of the scouts, we'd be better off building another warrior in K imo. And as for the long-term potential of the stone site, I think it's too long-term for this game. We're not going to get any towns up to or near 20 to make that line of reasoning useful. Better to maximize the potential here and now, possibly up to size 10, in which case the site closer to the stone isn't bad at all.
I don't agree with settling the copper first. I don't see the need for releasing one of the scouts, we'd be better off building another warrior in K imo. And as for the long-term potential of the stone site, I think it's too long-term for this game. We're not going to get any towns up to or near 20 to make that line of reasoning useful. Better to maximize the potential here and now, possibly up to size 10, in which case the site closer to the stone isn't bad at all.
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
I don't think we need definetly Astronomy to get to the big continent. As can be seen the island in the west is only 3 water tiles away. If we build a city on the coast, we can extend our culture borders across the middle ocean tile. Within culture borders galleys can cross the ocean! And the last tile is shallow coast again - so reachable for galleys. Just wait for the second culture border extension and we have a bridge over there. Question is now where do we get the culture? I mean also for the other cities. I personally tend to whip or chop obelisks. A religion does not seem possible atm. Additionally the missionary building is also a drain for ressources. Terrible only that we have no 2
tile and no forest for a hypothetical city N NW of the stone. So founding N of the stone really is an option to think about. Here I agree with DaviddesJ and Niklas. The stone however might be important. Facing War weariness, I think we shall discuss building the pyramids and switching to police state.Without the stone connected we shouldn't do. Pyramids are so expensive!
But with stone it is still 338
. Well we have 3 cities where to build: 1. Kara
2. Fort Smurx
3. The copper city
All 3 have 3 forests available for chopping.
If we get to Mathematics first we can have 50% more chop yield. Then
a chop 1 tile from center is 44
a chop 1 tile from center is 30
we should prechop all 3 forests and finish the chop short before we can finish the pyramids with the chops to make sure the chops get into the wonder. Beware when prechopping, cause the forest will be gone when a mouseover says (2 turns) left !!!!! There we have to stop chopping and hop to the next one.
The cities would get by that:
1. Kara : 2 forests 1 tile away, 1 forest 2 tiles away = 118
2. Fort Smurx : the same = 118
3. The copper city : 1 forest 1 tile away, 2 forests 2 tiles away = 104
Assuming that, we have 220 or 234 (in Copper-town)
left to produce. That looks to be too much for Karakorum, a production poor city, if we are not able to whip.Before we have IW, Coppertown can get 8
production, once it has culture borders expanded. However after IW it can have 11 with the next grassland hill. That would be 22 turns left for the build. Maybe we can get another hill mine in Coppertown operating before the finish. Then it might be 2 or 3 turns less. In the end a final whip on the cost of unhappiness might be needed.The advantage of Fort Smurkx on the otherc hand is, that we would not need to found the city first. Hehe! It can get only a mamimum of 7
per turn, but gets 14 hammers more from chopping. It will need 28 turns for finishing the pyramids. The fact, that it can start much earlier however is more important I think. So I would vote for Fort Smurx. Settling 1N of the stone can be done in 14 turns from now. Until then the worker might have mined the gold and roaded on to the stone and be ready to build a quarry. So we would need Masonry early! With the beakers already invested that can be done in 10 turns, if we switch immediately. After the quarry, the worker might prechop the woods. Than we would not need IW, but Writing and Mathematics fast. That is however now the enormous time of 102 turns.
In 3 turns we will have the gold available. Than we will have, I think 15 or 16
per turn for 11 turns, before city 3 is founded. The gold will give +7 
, but about 5 will be subtracted from that, by higher maintenance of 3 cities. The new city itself will get 3 , assuming it works the clam. So +5 can be awaited. Then we research at 14 per turn. Writing and Mathematics cost 1081 beakers together, so it is 78 turns to finish not taking further city maintenance and more generated into account.. That seems to rule out to use Mathematics. The chops will get us then only 80 , 40 less, which Fort Smurx will produce in 6 additional turns and we are free to research IW i.e. We will finish in about 33 turns after we started. That seems feasible, since Monarch AIs often finish the pyramids in the very late BCs or sometimes even in the ADs. And no prechopping is required, just cut them down. We will see, whether we can shorten the build time by whipping. So I think Masonry->Writing-> IW can be the way. Not a big change to our current plans IMHO.
Do you think this scenario is worth getting WW limited by the expensive police state civic? Or is it betterr to get peace asap?
ATM we can get peace as already noticed by Niklas only very expensive – for Fort Smurx, what is not an option. So maybe there is no easy way to peace for us. OTOH there are 2 leaders in the game who favour Police state as their preferred civic. These are Isabella and Qin. We would get the “You have wisely chosen your civics” bonus for relations. Since Qin might be very far away, having him as afriend might not be too bad. However Isabella might be one of our first victims.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
This is not 100% correct but I can see how it happens. At some point in the players round, units with pre-ordered orders (gotos, chops, farms, etc) complete their action for the current round. If you fail to stop your workers at the beginning of the round, then the worker could chop the forest before you catch him. The safest way to pre-chop is to tell the worker to chop, then reselect the worker and cancel orders. That way, when the next round comes up, he will ask for orders and not finish chopping the forest. This means that you can chop when it says '2 turns to go', just remember to cancel the order. When the forest says '1 turn to go', if you issue a chop order, the forest is instantly gone and the hammers added to the city hammer queue / building.
