SGOTM 05 - Smurkz

[unkle]

We need Machinery to get Astro since it's required for Optics. So the above doesn't seem doable to me.

Thought it was an optionnal requirement...
Checked here to be clearer, and there are some differences with what I thought.

Anyway in fact it does not change much, maybe even easier:

we need Astro prereq (Calendar and Optics) and either the tech or not the prereq of the preferred techs:

Writing =>have
Mathematics => have
Scientific Method => no Printing Press
Physics => no Astro
Education => no Paper
Printing Press => no Paper
Fiber Optics =>
Computers =>
The Wheel => have it
Philosophy => should have OR no Drama AND no COL (since I am almost sure we'll have Med at that time).
Chemistry => likely fine (No Engi or no GunPowder)
Fission =>
Fusion =>
Optics => have it (required)
Paper => no CS AND no Theo (ouch)
Astronomy

So summary:
- Calendar/Optics required for sure
- no CS, no Theo (guarantees no Paper)
- Philo or no Drama/CoL

 

[Marc Aurel]

This is not 100% correct but I can see how it happens. At some point in the players round, units with pre-ordered orders (gotos, chops, farms, etc) complete their action for the current round. If you fail to stop your workers at the beginning of the round, then the worker could chop the forest before you catch him. The safest way to pre-chop is to tell the worker to chop, then reselect the worker and cancel orders. That way, when the next round comes up, he will ask for orders and not finish chopping the forest. This means that you can chop when it says '2 turns to go', just remember to cancel the order. When the forest says '1 turn to go', if you issue a chop order, the forest is instantly gone and the hammers added to the city hammer queue / building.

Yes, you are right! I just didn't want to write something too complex. This was a 'Fail safe' approach to the task, since in th end it doesn't matter. You lose no turns as long as your worker has something to do. But thank you for the more detailed explanation of the procedure.

 

[Marc Aurel]

There is something about the Victory Condition that haunts me. Maybe somebody who is multiplayer can help me. I stumbled about DaviddesJ’s wish to give cities to the barbs. That shouldn’t be impossible. We just raze the cities and make sure the AI civs do not invade the then free space any more. Then sooner or later the barbs will found their own cities in the free regions. Alternatively we can help the barbs conquering cities. We do i.e. what barbs never do – we destroy the city defenses with catapults and kill all defenders but one. Additionally we have weakened that defender by 1 or 2 suicide cats inflicting collateral damage before. If we fear the barbs have no sufficient attacker, we can gift them a unit, that will do. Problem is that the barbs finally need to attack the city by themselves. I never did this before, so I don’t know whether it works and barbs move exactly in the city that you like them to. So better is maybe to let our stack follow where they are going by themselves and be there just a turn earlier to do our work.
But nevertheless here comes my question. Would that help getting to domination, since it does not matter for the team which partner holds the territory? Does the sum of our treritories count for domination win? Is there the possibilty to build up a monstrous science center that is never ever touched by maintenance of far away cities? With a mighty unit production powerhouse we just conquer the world with advanced units and leave maintenance of the conquered territory to the barbs?

And if so, we maybe need to bring culture to these barb conquered cities for domination. Can we ask them to convert to our religion and send missionaries or do they adopt automatically our own belief? Or does religion doesn’t work at all in barb cities?

 

[Kulko]

But nevertheless here comes my question. Would that help getting to domination, since it does not matter for the team which partner holds the territory? Does the sum of our treritories count for domination win? Is there the possibilty to build up a monstrous science center that is never ever touched by maintenance of far away cities? With a mighty unit production powerhouse we just conquer the world with advanced units and leave maintenance of the conquered territory to the barbs?

And if so, we maybe need to bring culture to these barb conquered cities for domination. Can we ask them to convert to our religion and send missionaries or do they adopt automatically our own belief? Or does religion doesn’t work at all in barb cities?

Since we are one team, Barb Cities should count against our Dom Limit. This might definitely be helpful in conquering the AIs without burdening us with too much maintenance.

I will try to check that missionary bit of info tonite. Although I belive it will be quite some time before we can send missionaries. It's a shame though, as the Barb town could really use cultural expansion and a bit of worker tasks.

 

[Marc Aurel]

I will try to check that missionary bit of info tonite. Although I belive it will be quite some time before we can send missionaries. It's a shame though, as the Barb town could really use cultural expansion and a bit of worker tasks.

Have tested the barb help scenario a bit myself. Yes, we can send missionaries inside barb cities and bring them religion and culture by that.
I made the same observation than you, that what the barbs also need urgently is workers to improve their land. If we want that big continent become Barbarian, we should build up their land first, to make them produce units at high speed. Hittite would be a very good site to start with.

Maybe we should look for a second center for us with the forbidden palace indside. Maybe Arabia or so to speed things up again.

 

[DaviddesJ]

The chops will get us then only 80 , 40 less, which Fort Smurx will produce in 6 additional turns and we are free to research IW i.e. We will finish in about 33 turns after we started.

I think it's a bit more than that, (675 - 160) / 14 = 37 turns.

It seems relatively optimistic to think that Fort Smurx can produce 7 hammers per turn, because that means it will have to expand its cultural borders (in which case we would get the full yield from the chop 2N) and would also have to grow to size 4, at least (which will be impossible if our WW keeps accumulating).

The Pyramids might be worth a try. But I'm not sure we would choose Police State, even if we had the choice. Minus 50% WW is probably no better than what we would get from Representation (and if it is more, than neither of those will be enough?).

Another approach to the happiness problem would be to focus on Monarchy. If we can get to Monarchy, then at least we can just pile up several warriors in each of our cities.

OTOH there are 2 leaders in the game who favour Police state as their preferred civic.

Can someone list the favored civics for all of the AIs? I can't look them up right now.

 

[Marc Aurel]

No problem. Here they are:

Tokugawa : Mercantilism
Saladin : Theocracy
Alexander : Hereditary Rule
Qin Shi Huangdi : Police State
Isabella : Police state
Asoka : Universal Suffrage
Cyrus : Representation

You might note that with exception of Saladin who favours a religious civic and Tokugawa, who favours a trade civic the rest of the leaders favour a gouvernmental civic.
Concerning the size of Fort Smurx, I included the warrior and the gold ressource for happiness in my assumptions. Another point is, that in all my test games with 3 different maps with the same setups than SGOTM5 I never experienced so much WW as we do in the original game. I am still a little optimistic that WW might be limited, cause the Barbs normaly don’t attack so often early, since they need more time to builds units. Anyone the same or different experiences from test games?

Concerning the build time, I think we can also work one plain tile to get the 7th and I cut down a couple of turns for whipping the rest. That's why I said 'about'. I just didn't know exactly how much this whipping 1 pop is atm. Have to look. Is it 44 for 1 pop? Would that be 88 for stone available? Can somebody correct me? If that would be true I think than it is exactly 31 turns.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Concerning the size of Fort Smurx, I included the warrior and the gold ressource in my assumptions.

OK, still, we aren't going to be able to generate more than 6 hpt unless we get a cultural expansion, right? That pushes us up to 43 turns, from the time we have the stone connected, so that's about 60 turns from now.

We could research Monarchy faster than that.

 

[Niklas]

I don't like either option. Going for Monarchy puts us off the course from whatever else we want to research, and the Pyramids are too large an investment IMO. I think the best way is to just accept the WW as it is now, and when we can we make peace. I'd rather research up to Alphabet or Currency than Monarchy.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I think the best way is to just accept the WW as it is now, and when we can we make peace.

We're fine with the WW the way it is now. But what if it gets a lot worse, and our cities all shrink to size 1?

 

[Marc Aurel]

OK, still, we aren't going to be able to generate more than 6 hpt unless we get a cultural expansion, right? That pushes us up to 43 turns, from the time we have the stone connected, so that's about 60 turns from now.

We could research Monarchy faster than that.

Sure? Maybe that becomes a close race. ATM it is 1400 to go to Monarchy from now. (via Myst, Meditation, Priesthood->Monarchy) ATM we make 9 per turn. That will increase for sure. If we manage to get an average of 20 per turn, it is 70 turns to become Kings.
Or let's say we need 23,3 per turn averaged to get to 60 turns.
We cannot trade before alpha and have a lot of AIs not willing to trade either. The barbs will get a couple of beakers for us I am sure. MAybe we can pop techs from the 2 huts around Fort Smurx, but we can neither be sure that we get a tech not which it would be. As I said a very interesting close race IMHO. One way we can research something else, the other way we have the hand free to build something in Fort Smurx.

 

[DaviddesJ]

We currently get 9 bpt from our economy, plus 1 bpt just for living, plus 20% at least for having one prerequisite for whatever we're reaching. So it's a bit better than you say. But I agree, it's more turns to research Monarchy than I realized.

Working on Pyramids, after we connect the stone, is not so bad even if we lose the race and the hammers turn into gold. I can think of worse things than receiving 500 gold.

 

[DaviddesJ]

By the way, I think we can get another 40 hammers if we chop the 3 forests to the far southeast of Fort Smurkz. There's not much point in saving them, the only cost is the worker turns.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Concerning the build time, I think we can also work one plain tile to get the 7th and I cut down a couple of turns for whipping the rest. That's why I said 'about'. I just didn't know exactly how much this whipping 1 pop is atm. Have to look. Is it 44 for 1 pop? Would that be 88 for stone available? Can somebody correct me? If that would be true I think than it is exactly 31 turns.

Working unimproved plains is very unattractive. (I guess we could put a cottage there; that's only slightly better.) And working forest, forest, gold mine, plains at size 4 is not even enough food to feed our city.

Pop rushing is heavily penalized when you're rushing a world wonder. The only effective way to do it is to rush something else and put the overflow into the wonder. See below for one way to do that.

Building city #3 2W of clams, rather than 1SW, is really much better in the medium term, not just the long term. It would get us 4 more land tiles to work, two of which are much-needed hills for production. Unfortunately, it also means it's a really long time before that city is productive. Best we can do is work a coast for 33 turns to grow to size 2, then rush an obelisk, then wait another 15 turns for border expansion.

It's not going to be significantly faster unless we get a religion, or we can switch to Caste System (then we could expand with an artist in just 4 turns).

My current inclination is to go ahead and put the city next to the stone and start working on Pyramids in Fort Smurkz. The value of connecting the stone is what sways it for me; working on the Pyramids will be good whether or not we actually get it.

It's 8 turns to build the settler, and 5 turns to travel, so we could found the city 14 turns from now. Worker needs 2 more turns to finish the mine, and 9 turns for 3 roads, so it can be ready to start the quarry if we have Masonry. Then it's 9 more turns to build the quarry, so we would have stone hooked up 22 turns from now.

In 22 turns, what can we do with Fort Smurkz?

2 turns working rice, forest (food 16/36, warrior 18/22)
1 turn working rice, gold mine (food 18/36, warrior 22/22)
9 turns working rice, gold mine (size 3, food 0/39, workboat 36/45)
2 turns working rice, gold mine, forest (size 3, food 4/39, workboat 46/45)
8 turns working rice, gold mine, forest (food 20/39, granary 82/90)

At this point, we can rush the granary for 1 pop, if we want, and put 90 overflow into the Pyramids. That leaves us at only size 2, but the granary gives us "relatively quick" regrowth to size 4.

Alternatively, we could do the same thing but with obelisk instead of granary, if we would rather have cultural expansion to pop the two huts.

 

[Niklas]

I see a few issues that need to be resolved before I can start playing.

The Pyramids
Going for the pyramids is a huge investment. It's great if we pull it off, and if we fail we get a rather nice reimbursement. All in all I wouldn't mind the attempt, not for the sake of combating WW, but for its own sake. This would require us going for Masonry to time it with the settling of the third town and the availability of the worker. Pyramids yea or nay? Right now it feels as if the audience is in favor. Anyone clearly against?

Research
I want to go for Sailing. It would help spread Gold around as I've argued before, and also Stone to FS for the Pyramids (though this could be done with a road). But also, it has another very nice side effect that I hadn't considered before - barbarian galleys! It would put an end to our wondering whether or not we're going to need Astronomy, let the barbies do the exploration of the sea for us. If we go for the Pyramids we of course need to research Masonry fairly soon, but after that I definitely want Sailing.

City placement
I would think the location by the stone is the best, and I've argued why. A must if we want the Pyramids.

These three things we need to decide before I can play on. If you agree with me on these, then this is my turnplan:

Long term plans:

• Win the game, likely be Conquest or Domination.
• Gather a sufficient military, with sufficient technology, to be able to conquer our opponents.

Mid-term plans:

• Build the Pyramids is FS.
• Research Sailing and Masonry to get Stone to FS.
• Make peace with our neighbors when possible.

My turnset:

• Finish the settler in K, and build our third city 1N of the Stone.
• Follow up with Warrior-Settler(?) in K.
• Build Warrior-(?)-Pyramids in FS.
• Build WB in #3.
• Research Masonry, and continue on Sailing.

EDIT: Crosspost with DJ. I think what he says makes perfect sense, and removes the need for a WB in #3. I would prefer to get the granary by whipping, and the 90 towards Pyramids are a really nice boon.

 

[DaviddesJ]

We're still going to need a road on the gold and a road on the stone, so the net advantage of Sailing in connecting FS with city3 is just one road. That seems very minimal. I agree it would be nice to connect back to K without building several more roads. I think I would still rather push for IW, which has clear benefits, but I can live with a diversion to Sailing. City3 can build granary then lighthouse.

We could try to build Great Lighthouse somewhere, particularly if we eventually manage to reveal iron or horses near K for extra hammers.

By the way, we're getting more free beakers in Masonry than in Sailing, so I think we optimize our research by switching to Sailing for several turns, then to Masonry just in time to get it when we need it, then back to Sailing.

One thing I'm not sure about is what K should build after settler. A lot depends on how much WW we are going to have. Growing to size 4 is not useful if we aren't going to be able to be happy at size 4. Granary is not useful if we're going to suffer heavy WW and can't afford to pop rush. Maybe we just go straight to a 3rd settler. (If we research IW instead of Sailing, then I would suggest a 2nd worker before 4th settler.)

 

[Niklas]

We're still going to need a road on the gold and a road on the stone, so the net advantage of Sailing in connecting FS with city3 is just one road. That seems very minimal. I agree it would be nice to connect back to K without building several more roads. I think I would still rather push for IW, which has clear benefits, but I can live with a diversion to Sailing. City3 can build granary then lighthouse.

I like that plan for #3. And I still also see it as a major benefit to give galleys to the barbies, as well as getting the gold fast into K.

We could try to build Great Lighthouse somewhere, particularly if we eventually manage to reveal iron or horses near K for extra hammers.

Perhaps, I don't think either way before I can think and calculate some more on cost benefits of having it. That's definitely for after my turnset though.

By the way, we're getting more free beakers in Masonry than in Sailing, so I think we optimize our research by switching to Sailing for several turns, then to Masonry just in time to get it when we need it, then back to Sailing.

Absolutely, that was the plan even if I didn't write it out.

One thing I'm not sure about is what K should build after settler. A lot depends on how much WW we are going to have. Growing to size 4 is not useful if we aren't going to be able to be happy at size 4. Granary is not useful if we're going to suffer heavy WW and can't afford to pop rush. Maybe we just go straight to a 3rd settler. (If we research IW instead of Sailing, then I would suggest a 2nd worker before 4th settler.)

Regardless of what level of WW we will see, building a warrior after the settler will allow us to grow one size larger than we otherwise could. I would go settler-warrior(while growing)-settler or worker. I actually think I favor a worker at this point, to help chopping trees if nothing else. Also a fourth town by the copper would be fairly unproductive right now, and would increase maintenance all over, so I wouldn't mind waiting with that for a bit.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Regardless of what level of WW we will see, building a warrior after the settler will allow us to grow one size larger than we otherwise could. I would go settler-warrior(while growing)-settler or worker. I actually think I favor a worker at this point, to help chopping trees if nothing else. Also a fourth town by the copper would be fairly unproductive right now, and would increase maintenance all over, so I wouldn't mind waiting with that for a bit.

Given that we're already building a warrior in FS, that means we'll soon have 3 warriors and a settler. We need one in FS and one in K for garrison, that means we have a warrior and a scout left over for fogbusting, which is enough, I think, after city3 is founded. I guess one more would be nice, but I don't think it's essential.

I don't see barbarian galleys as a significant benefit. If they fight the other AIs more, that's probably bad for us (WW is more significant than slowing them down). Exploration will satisfy our curiosity, but I don't see it affecting our strategy in any significant way.

The copper town is not unproductive at all. Even at size 1, it will have +2 food and 5 hammers; it has plenty to keep it busy, building obelisk and granary and lighthouse. If we build the city later, it will just take longer to do all of those things. Plus it relieves our fogbusting concerns.

I'm not in any big hurry to chop trees, until we have something to chop them for, although I suppose we could always go chop the forests in the far southeast for some extra hammers in the pyramids. I'd still tend for the 4th city, and then workers, unless we need roads.

 

[Marc Aurel]

I mostly agree to your plan Niklas. Only thing is, that I am not so sure about priority to sailing and think the benefits of IW might be larger, but O.K. – growing Kara one tile is a good achievement, so go on with your plan - according to what David desJ has written.

As I opened the save, I was sure that we theoretically can reach the big continent without Astronomy - depending on the city placement in the west as I have explained – so that issue can be settled IMHO.

@ David desJ: Concerning the plains around Fort Smurkz – you are right. I assumed too fast that we can irrigate the tile because of the river, but it is only one tile long and diagonal tiles at the end do not count for irrigation- sorry! But nevertheless we might expand FS with an obelisk when the barbs have researched mysticism for us . as you have explained yourself. With respect to the two huts, I think better sooner than later pop them. So for the obelisk scenario you can have my vote. However that will take 15 turns.

But all in all from my point of view you can continue as planned Niklas.

 

[Marc Aurel]

I had a very promising solution to the task of giving cities to the barbs, I just wanted to do the complete campaign seaborne. The stack of doom (SoD) would travel then around on board of a fleet. The barb unit that should capture a certain city is build by us or selected from our army. It would be given to the barbs when the galley, which it carries moves through barbarian coast tiles. Since it remains on board, it is still us who control the movement of the unit until it is put on a land tile next to the city we want to conquer. The city is then prepared to make the success of the barb onslaught very probable by our own attack before. And we would have given the barbs a good city attacker. The barb will for sure attack the city. OK, we would be limited to coastal cities with that strategy, but that is quite a part of the world to start with. But no matter how brilliant this idea might have been, different to friendly AIs the barbs simply do not accept presented units …. aarrgggghhhh!