SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Mar 6, 2008

damn
if they got cavalry and lots of mounted units the best counter are WE, and a good Xbow can cover them from pikes.
What i fear now is that they are close to rifles, and in this case it's game over.
Don't even try to chase the wounded, they can escape fast and go in a city under protection of healthy units.
I guess you already started the GA, well done, is what we agree to do. Right or wrong? i don't know, surely cavalry is far away from us (philo-nation-MT-GP).
For the new city placement just follow this simple rule: grab how much land you can with a single city, no matter how good or not can be the site, just try to grab some resources we lack, in case. And don't forget to put an artist at work from the very first turn, to quickly expand borders.

If you have targeted some lightly defended city, take it, and raze only the ones which give us not enough land.

I do NOT think a conquest is doable at this point, they are too advanced.

greatbeyond · Mar 6, 2008

Well it is not as bad as it could be. I started off by popping our Golden Age. We are still in possession of Nidaros, and have fended off a few attackers.
Our 2nd invasion fleet is just off the enemy's west coast, and can land the next turn. The question is which city to attack. I have attached Screenshots of the likely targets. The bad news is that everyone else appears to have both Cavalry and Riflemen, though several of their cities our still defended by LB. Most of those with Riflemen only have 2.
I don't think it is unwinnable at this point as our 4th level promoted WE, LB, and XB are a match for what the enemy throws at us.
After researching Music, I went Philo, then Gunpowder. My thinking here is that we have a counter for the enemy mounted units but not the Riflemen. Speeding to Chemistry will give us Grenadiers and with them, we won't have much of a problem defeating their Riflemen.
I would suggest making sure we have a huge force built up before we attack further, making sure each stack has a counter for each type of enemy unit.

The enemy now has a few Galleons and we will need to watch our coast for enemy landings. We can use our Caravels as early warning pickets, but we must keep a reaction force in our coastal cities.
Two more cities were established, chopped Theatres right away followed by Granary, managed for max growth. One note on the inner cites; I have set them to Research to get to Gunpowder quickly, perhaps we should switch them back to production now or wait until we get Chemistry.

Turn Log was too big and will be the next post.

The Save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Fifth_Element_SG006_AD1658_01.CivWarlordsSave

The pictures:

greatbeyond · Mar 6, 2008

Here is the TurnLog

Spoiler :

blubmuz - UP
civicide - on deck
sweetacshon
Merum - auto-skipped until news
greatbeyond- resting

BLubmuz · Mar 7, 2008

Not clear why we researched Music and Philo before GP, what is the benefit we have from those techs?
Luck we are on Prince, and the upgrades for the AI are expensive.
I think i'll go for Medina, then the city SW, if our stack manage to not be wiped and to take it.
Anyway we made some mistake somewhere in the game, there was an easier path to victory, pity we haven't seen it (i'm thinking to CRC).

Let's try to do out best to at least win the game.
I got the save, i'll play tomorrow to give you time for some suggestion.

greatbeyond · Mar 7, 2008

Sorry, My mistake, not Music but Drama. It was set to Drama when I got it, to get us Theatres and Artists to give us quick expansion. The reason I went Philo next was because I saw the AI had Cavalry and was going to go that route. At that time they didn't have Riflemen. Once I completed Philo and saw they had Riflemen, I knew we needed Grenadiers as a counter to Riflemen, thus Gunpowder (1 turn left) and then Chemistry. I'm not sure which way to go after that, go to Steel for Cannons or go back to get Military Tradition for West Point and Cavalry.

greatbeyond · Mar 7, 2008

For our invasion fleet on the West Coast, I was thinking Baghdad was the best choice, not because it is lightly defended, but because it is farthest away from Nidaros and the AI is busy sending Troops in that direction, also because it will cut off the city on the Peninsula and appears to have resources in it's BFC. Last I looked, Baghdad had at least 1 Rifleman and a LB, Mace, and 4 Cats. Medina has a Rifleman, Maceman, and 2 LB. Khurasan has just 2 LB the last I checked.

As for Medina, you may want to wait 4 turns or so. If you look up the Coast about 3 NW, where the enemy Galleon is, there was a stack of about 10 units coming south, A couple of Cavalry, Maces and Cats. We should have expansion in Nidaros by then and as soon as they enter our territory we wipe out their stack, sacrificing a couple of Cats if necessary to soften them up. That timed with an attack on the West should split up the AI response allowing us to take Medina. It also allows time to get some more reinforcements to Nidaros, which we should leave lightly defended and use all the units that are there now to attack. On another note, our Longbows in Nidaros have been our defenders and have killed a couple of Cavalry that have attacked.

BLubmuz · Mar 9, 2008

Before begin to play i'd like to know if you're still interested on this game.
See the number of posts in the last month, i presume you aren't.
I know RL comes first, but a row every now and then is not that big.

Just tell me if this team is already alive, of if it's better retire.

dutchfire · Mar 9, 2008

Alive, but not really interested. It is really hard to follow a game if you can't open it.

greatbeyond · Mar 9, 2008

I am here to the end. I am confident we will win the game,....the competition....?

Civicide · Mar 9, 2008

I'm alive.

BLubmuz · Mar 9, 2008

hmm...
I supposed you lurkers have lost some interest, and this' easy, not owning Warlords (and this is the main reason you haven't actively participated, IIRC).

OK, GB let's go to the not brilliant end of this game.
Civicide, i'm happy to know you're alive, some more?
Sweeta seems lost in some Aussie desert again.

Oh well i'll play tomorrow or even tonight if i got the mood.
I'll try to make good use of your suggestions, GB. I'll look again to them with the save opened before play.

BLubmuz · Mar 10, 2008

TS played, the save.

Spoiler :

While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (6.80/8): Arabian Camel Archer (Prob Victory: 95.7%)
A Farm was built near Coventry
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (3.20/8): Arabian Camel Archer (Prob Victory: 95.7%)
A Farm was built near Canterbury
Tech learned: Gunpowder
Athens grows: 16
Athens finishes: Longbowman
A Town was built near Kumbi Saleh
A Village was built near Nottingham
Nidaros's borders expand

IBT:
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Nidaros

Turn 357/660 (1661 AD) [10-Mar-2008 11:09:49]
Research begun: Chemistry (7 Turns)
Athens begins: Musketman (7 turns)
A Mine was built near Coventry
A Quarry was built near Canterbury
Utica finishes: Longbowman
Saxon grows: 9
Confucianism has spread: Canterbury
Coventry's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 358/660 (1664 AD) [10-Mar-2008 11:18:36]
Utica begins: War Elephant (4 turns)
Athens begins: Colosseum (8 turns)
Athens begins: Theatre (5 turns)
A Farm was built near Canterbury
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, Galleon loses to: Viking Galleon (2.48/4) (Prob Victory: 35.5%)
While attacking in English territory near Nidaros, Galleon defeats (4.00/4): Viking Galleon (Prob Victory: 96.0%)
A Mine was built near Canterbury
Timbuktu grows: 15
Leptis grows: 5

IBT:
While defending in Arabian territory at Medina, Knight loses to: Persian Rifleman (14.00/14) (Prob Victory: 10.7%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Longbowman loses to: Arabian Maceman (8.00/8) (Prob Victory: 5.8%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Knight defeats (6.70/10): Arabian Trebuchet (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Cavalry (6.45/15) (Prob Victory: 31.9%)
While defending in Viking territory at Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (6.00/6): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While defending in Viking territory at Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (4.32/6): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While defending in Viking territory at Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (1.62/6): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 81.0%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Crossbowman defeats (2.94/6): Arabian Maceman (Prob Victory: 91.2%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Knight defeats (8.40/10): Arabian Maceman (Prob Victory: 89.6%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Knight defeats (6.80/10): Arabian Maceman (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

Turn 359/660 (1667 AD) [10-Mar-2008 11:25:50]
While attacking in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (7.44/8): Arabian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 50.0%)
While attacking in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (4.88/8): Arabian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
A Mine was built near Coventry
A Farm was built near Leptis
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Catapult loses to: Arabian Rifleman (14.00/14) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Catapult loses to: Arabian Rifleman (14.00/14) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Trebuchet loses to: Arabian Rifleman (14.00/14) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Trebuchet loses to: Arabian Rifleman (14.00/14) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Maceman loses to: Arabian Rifleman (7.28/14) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Maceman loses to: Arabian Rifleman (3.92/14) (Prob Victory: 8.1%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Knight defeats (10.00/10): Arabian Rifleman (Prob Victory: 86.8%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, War Elephant defeats (2.72/8): Arabian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 56.7%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Longbowman (1.44/6) (Prob Victory: 58.8%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Knight defeats (4.00/10): Arabian Maceman (Prob Victory: 73.0%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, War Elephant defeats (4.96/8): Arabian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Knight defeats (10.00/10): Arabian Trebuchet (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Christianity has spread: Medina
Captured Medina (Saladin)
Medina begins: Theatre (75 turns)
A Pasture was built near Canterbury
Athens finishes: Theatre
A Hamlet was built near Carthage
Hadrumetum grows: 11
Nottingham finishes: Longbowman
A Village was built near Saxon

IBT:
While defending in Arabian territory at Medina, War Elephant loses to: Persian Catapult (3.90/5) (Prob Victory: 35.7%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Longbowman defeats (3.12/6): Persian Rifleman (Prob Victory: 16.1%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (4.88/8): Arabian Catapult (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Knight defeats (2.60/10): Arabian Trebuchet (Prob Victory: 97.1%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Camel Archer (1.20/10) (Prob Victory: 73.2%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (2.88/6): Arabian Camel Archer (Prob Victory: 58.3%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (1.52/8): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 97.9%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Knight loses to: Arabian Camel Archer (10.00/10) (Prob Victory: 29.2%)
While defending in Viking territory at Haithabu, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Cavalry (9.90/15) (Prob Victory: 3.0%)
While defending in Viking territory at Haithabu, Maceman loses to: Arabian Cavalry (4.50/15) (Prob Victory: 1.0%)
While defending in Viking territory at Haithabu, Maceman loses to: Arabian Cavalry (12.75/15) (Prob Victory: 2.2%)
While defending in Viking territory at Haithabu, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Cavalry (15.00/15) (Prob Victory: 0.5%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (0.18/6): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 55.7%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Crossbowman defeats (0.42/6): Arabian Maceman (Prob Victory: 10.6%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Catapult loses to: Arabian Maceman (5.28/8) (Prob Victory: 24.7%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Longbowman loses to: Arabian Maceman (5.12/8) (Prob Victory: 7.0%)
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'

Turn 360/660 (1670 AD) [10-Mar-2008 11:38:41]
Nottingham begins: Maceman (6 turns)
London begins: Maceman (2 turns)
London begins: Theatre (3 turns)
Athens begins: Maceman (5 turns)
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
Knight promoted: Pinch
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (3.84/6): Arabian Camel Archer (Prob Victory: 72.3%)
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, Knight defeats (10.00/10): Arabian Camel Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, Pikeman defeats (6.00/6): Arabian Camel Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Knight promoted: Pinch
Timbuktu begins: Theatre (5 turns)
A Town was built near Utica
A Hamlet was built near Leptis
Coventry grows: 2

IBT:
While defending in English territory at Medina, Longbowman defeats (0.24/6): Persian Rifleman (Prob Victory: 13.7%)
While defending in English territory at Medina, Longbowman defeats (3.24/6): Persian Rifleman (Prob Victory: 16.9%)
While defending in English territory at Medina, Knight defeats (4.50/10): Arabian Catapult (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
While defending in Arabian territory at Medina, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Cavalry (15.00/15) (Prob Victory: 22.9%)
While defending in English territory at Nidaros, Longbowman defeats (6.00/6): Arabian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Cavalry (4.20/15) (Prob Victory: 27.9%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Catapult loses to: Arabian Maceman (5.44/8) (Prob Victory: 8.4%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Catapult loses to: Arabian Maceman (1.76/8) (Prob Victory: 8.7%)
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, Catapult loses to: Viking Rifleman (14.00/14) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)

Turn 361/660 (1673 AD) [10-Mar-2008 11:45:58]
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Arabian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Pikeman promoted: Medic I
A Mine was built near Coventry
A Watermill was built near Canterbury
While attacking in English territory at Medina, Knight defeats (4.70/10): Persian Catapult (Prob Victory: 94.4%)
Longbowman promoted: Combat I
Longbowman promoted: Drill III
Pikeman promoted: Medic I
Utica finishes: War Elephant
Timbuktu finishes: Theatre
Nidaros finishes: Buddhist Monastery
Canterbury grows: 2

IBT:
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Nidaros
While defending in English territory at Medina, Longbowman defeats (5.04/6): Arabian Catapult (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While defending in Arabian territory at Medina, War Elephant loses to: Arabian Cavalry (12.15/15) (Prob Victory: 35.7%)
While defending in Arabian territory at Medina, Longbowman loses to: Arabian Cavalry (6.00/15) (Prob Victory: 5.2%)
While defending in Arabian territory at Medina, Pikeman loses to: Arabian Cavalry (3.00/15) (Prob Victory: 4.3%)
A Farm was destroyed near Nidaros
While defending in Viking territory near Nidaros, War Elephant loses to: Viking Rifleman (12.04/14) (Prob Victory: 0.9%)

Turn 362/660 (1676 AD) [10-Mar-2008 11:51:58]
Utica begins: Maceman (4 turns)
Timbuktu begins: Maceman (9 turns)
Nidaros begins: Forge (14 turns)
Subutai (Great General) born in Timbuktu
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, War Elephant defeats (3.68/8): Arabian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 95.7%)
While attacking in English territory at Nidaros, Galleon loses to: Persian Galleon (0.96/4) (Prob Victory: 32.9%)

I've played only some 6 turns, i think there's no way to win this: All the AIs have Chem (we're 2 turns away), but they all have 3 more techs and at least 5 more we can't see (MT, Edu, PP, Rifling and Economics). We can't hope to beat them on their land, they seem coordinate in their attacks.

I suggest to give up.

I don't want to start a polemics about other teams, but how they knew Astro was needed? We was sure of this after our caravels.
Remember that if a player plays the game on a PC that will not be used to play the TSs, this spoiling game will give all the info needed and the strategy of the "official" game can be well drawn.
And if you add this to one or more teams with top players, you got it!

Probably we made some mistake in the early game, and we was unlucky that Ragnar never fought a war against his neighbours, despite being boxed.

But i can't see a way to win this game, and the team is "blown", probably due to RL.

Sweetacshon · Mar 10, 2008

I'm still here, but RL does make things tough til Wednesday. Sounds grim, but due to an assignment, I won't be looking til Wed. Sorry for going AWOL.

Merum · Mar 10, 2008

Hey guys, thought I'd check in and say howdy. I'm in snowy Japan working my tail off, so I haven't had time to do much of anything besides read the occasional post... it's too bad that things are going badly.

I haven't had time to study the map in detail, but are we dead sure Astro was needed? Did we possibly miss an opportunity for a culture bridge somewhere? It looks like we got a bunch of teams finishing around 500AD, and no way in hell they got astro that quick with no trading.

Finally, I know I haven't made much of a contribution for the last month or so, but I just think it's bad form to give up. In my opinion, it's best to fight to the bitter end, even if it means a defeat. Grens are 2 turns away, and should counter the opposing rifles.

If this wasn't a competition I'd walk away from the game for sure, but it is a competition.

If everybody decides to drop the game where it is, I'll pick it up and finish it myself some weekend, rather than let the team take a DNF.

BLubmuz · Mar 10, 2008

Wecome back, Merum.
My proposal to give up is based on 2, maybe 3 reasons:
1 - the team: you can see our activity in the last 2 months, painful
2 - the game: we're fighting 3 AIs on their land, one of them is bigger than us. They not only fight in a way that seems coordinate, but we are at least 10 techs behind.
3 - i'm convinced that what i posted about Astro is the sad truth: see Lexad's post i quoted some 20 posts ago, and see the dates of the top teams. And yes, i'm sure it's needed for the dom limit.

Perhaps the best way to victory was cultural, and we could have easily done it with 3 religions. Remember that the culture needed is not given by Wonders but from Cathedrals and by the culture slider together with cottages and Free Speech. And we could have choosen the best 3 cities among ours: London, York, Athens, Carthage or Djenne the candidates.
Our army was enough to react to invasion, we would have not won a laurel, but probably the game.

Anyway, i'll stay to the majority, as usual.

greatbeyond · Mar 10, 2008

I am a die hard, 'till the end is here, last man standing, don't give up, die hard. I will go forward even knowing that we may not be the "winner" of the competition. I don't feel it's lost yet. Perhaps we should just focus on destroying their infrastructure and razing their cities for now. We seem to be ahead in the Naval department and on this map,the strongest Navy can make the difference. We are the biggest Civ by far and we can always catch up on techs, then build towards the land limit while making raiding attacks. Once we're close to the limit, we won't need too much of the enemy's land. For encouragement, look at Trash Team and Geezers who from all appearances are going to finish behind us. Then look at Real Ms Beyond and Misfits who seem to have run into the same trouble we have (judging from the score chart). If you look further back, some of the teams have taken a down turn which doesn't seem to indicate anything positive, when they should be steamrolling ahead.

Sweetacshon · Mar 10, 2008

On the contrary, GB, that downturn is usually the economy tanking as they MM their little backsides off to win the game the turn before it all falls apart.

BLubmuz · Mar 14, 2008

I'd like to know how can we finish this game if no one plays or posts.

From now on, i'll answer if someone posts, no more.

greatbeyond · Mar 14, 2008

This is the current roster. Everyone has said they wish to play. If you can't play then let us know to skip. It may be better for us to play 5 to 10 turns depending on what happens.

I have listed some suggestions:
Use our current troops to pillage and destroy the enemy resources.
Take their outlying islands to deny them the gold/research. If we want to stick with Conquest/Domination of their continent, destroy most of their cities as we take them, to keep us from having to have garrisons and tying up precious units. The enemy won't be able to retake them and pick up where they left off.
Research Techs to get the strongest Naval Forces and keep possession of the seas.
Build WE to counter Calvary, Grenadiers to counter Riflemen, LB for city Defense. With our units getting 3 and 4 promotions they are still a match for better units.

civicide - up
sweetacshon - on deck
Merum - auto-skipped until news
greatbeyond-
blubmuz - resting

BLubmuz · Mar 15, 2008

GB, the tactic you posted is logical, even if i has a couple of high-promoted WE smashed by cavalry.
We need to find and pillage iron and horses to deny them to build/upgrade cannons (i suppose they're close to Steel) and cavalry.

Still, we got a long path to sail to the continent, and not many reserve troops.

This is for the game ifself, the other problem is the team: no news from Civicide, Sweeta and Merum.
I think Merum is still busy, but i'm pretty sure he will join soon, some incertitude for Civ + Sweeta: strange that Civ posted nothing about his problems, and Sweeta is often busy and disappear for long time.
No contributions to the strategy, no comments, no TS played.
Me: sincerely i doubt we can win this, but i'll do my best in my TSs if the team, or at least a decent part of it will be up again.

For now, can we say me and you form a team?

SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

King

Attachments

King

HoF Quattromaster

King

King

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

King

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Permanent Jet Lag

HoF Quattromaster

King

In the foetal position

HoF Quattromaster

King

HoF Quattromaster

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