SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

hm... sorry i forgot to take SS, and i unvealed a decent portion of our continent... hey Civ, can you please take some SS for our lurking friends?

I don't understand this hurry to meet new civs, the later we do the better for us. I already posted about this some post above.

We need to find out if we can reach other landmasses with galleys, but, if we can avoid "meetings", better.
 
Sorry, but I didn't get around to playing tonight. I will certainly play some time tomorrow.

One thing I'd like a consensus on: what to do with our GP. I'm quite convinced that we need to be settling the GG in York, but am not quite sure what to do with our prophet.

My preference would be to settle him in London, for the production, gold, and beakers. Saving for Theology seems a waste as we only really have our religion in 2 cities, and don't look to be spending many hammers on missionaries in the near future.

If we want to settle him, though, I want to do it right away, and not leave him scratching his @$$ for a turnset while we decide.

Apart from that, it's build an army, and slash and burn. That much I think I can handle :)
 
Here's the way I see it:

Assuming we hold the prophet for theology, and finish sailing plus research the required techs at 60%, that's 13 turns at a cost of 273g(It's actually less than this because the Athens courthouse will come online during these turns, but I'm basing it on what it is now). If we researched theology after that it would take us 32 turns IF we could afford the research, which we cannot. I'm aware that we don't have the state religion in every city, but a couple of missionaries for key production cities should be able to build very quickly at 60:hammers: running OR. On top of this, we get Theology in 13 turns, denying the religion to another civ.

Being in Theocracy means each city in which we have our state religion, a GG settled, and a barracks, will crank out 7XP units. Worth it, IMO, to be able to crank out units that will promote to lvl 3 after their first combat. Toss in vassalage (I'm of the mind that Feudalism should be our next tech target) and you're talking 9xp units right out of training camp. Longbows created in those cities would be murderous, considering the free promotions they get. Not to mention CR3 attackers.

If we settle the GP, we get +5:gold:+2:hammers: for the rest of the game. Considering that I think we should be in PS and not Rep, I don't see the short term value here, and we're not playing a long term strategy.

Personally, I favor holding the GP for 13 turns while the required research completes. Even if we don't go right into Theocracy, we have it in our hip pocket. So that's my vote.

EDIT: We might have a shorter research path after we settle the GG, maybe not. I didn't run the numbers on the extra three beakers per turn.

EDIT2: Civicide, be careful of the RNG... after all, THIS...IS...SPARTA!!!!!!!!1111 :D
 
My thoughts on GPr.:
Denying a religion is not a good move, if the 3 remaining AI form a Buddist block, but one of them is the first to Theo, there's a chance the block is broke. But your points about run Theo + Vassal are interesting. I prefer to build a couple of monasteries, anyway they help on research and we can avoid a turn of anarchy to OR.
The Vassal exclude Bureau, remember.

As i already said, i'm not a fan of PS, we don't have much happiness problems, and we have good prod.
 
Good luck, GB!

I can't imagine why I thought GB was up next? :crazyeye: Anyway, good luck, GB! :cool:

GP: Merum, you make a good . about Theo, but we certainly don't want to deny the AI a religion, as Blubmuz says. I suppose I'm leaning more towards settling, especially because I don't think we should run the treasury all the way down at this point. That being said, theo + vass is a great strategy.

Civ, don't forget to get a navy out.. we really need to evaluate whether we are going to need astro pretty soon.
 
Two things:

1. You're hoping for a "maybe the AI will do this thing I want them to do" in regard to Theocracy... if a civ is entrenched in a religious bloc I doubt they will switch out and even IF they do and IF there's a war, instead of a couple of mediocre civs, we could end up with a powerhouse to deal with. I don't like relying on computer algorithms to control my destiny. Religion changes happen more in the early game, with early religions, but rarely with the later religions, as the civ founding it generally has a preponderance of cities with their current religion.

2. We have mediocre production now. Considering that our primary purpose is to crank out military units and wage war, I'm baffled by your resistance to switching to the civic that is designed to facilitate exactly that.
 
OK, let's follow Merum's strategy about Theo.
Just discuss it if, at the time we'll have Medi + Mono, someone will discover it first. Not that the strategy will be different. just to be sure.
Nothing to add to what has been said for the rest.
 
OK, let's follow Merum's strategy about Theo.
Just discuss it if, at the time we'll have Medi + Mono, someone will discover it first. Not that the strategy will be different. just to be sure.
Nothing to add to what has been said for the rest.
Good enough for me. Sounds pretty solid. I'm not very experienced with Theo, but the plan sounds good enough. I'll start playing immediately (just got knocked out of my poker tournament :( )
 
5 turns into my turnset; Christianity was FIADL. Sparta is defended by 7 archers and has walls, so I'm waiting for a few cats. Medi was in; aborting Mono for the time being to get MC, since there's no rush to Theo now. The MM stack found a pressing engagement elsewhere and isn't threatening Utica any more.
 
1 - Christianity was FIADL. Medi was in; aborting Mono for the time being to get MC, since there's no rush to Theo now.
2 - Sparta is defended by 7 archers and has walls, so I'm waiting for a few cats.
3 - The MM stack found a pressing engagement elsewhere and isn't threatening Utica any more.
1 - Next time i'll choose the prophet as a job - OK for MC, forges are useful.
2 - 7? WTH! :eek: our jumbos can be enough, but better go on the sure side
3 - pressing engagement??? :confused:
 
3 - pressing engagement??? :confused:
Just a figure of speech. I moved the elephant into Utica, giving it a promo for the hp, and whipped an archer. With three defenders in the city the MM stack retreated without attacking.
 
Okay, turnset played. 15 turns. Here is the save.

1) The Mansa Musa mini-stack retreated back into MM-land without attacking after I bolstered Utica's defenses. However, it's back, and I redirected some defenders to Utica to handle it. It shouldn't be a problem.

2) I pillaged heavily in MM and Hannibal territory throughout the TS. A single chariot is wreaking havoc around Kumbi Saleh, which is defended by only two skirmishers and apparently unwilling to attack our Chariot. If it's eventually killed, oh well, it's destroyed like 2 villages, a hamlet, and a plantation so far. We've also played havoc on MM's roads and trade routes. All that pillaging helped paid for our research, which saw Sailing, Medi, and MC come in. I put several turns into Calendar.

3) Finding Sparta heavily defended with 7 archers and walls, and with our stack not exactly healthy, I elected to wait and build up a nice stack before attacking. Now we've got a fairly nice stack, with more cats on the way. Also, in the last 2 turns, 3 archers have abandoned the city to try to escort a settler. I have moved the stack south to intercept it on its likely path.

Additionally, 2 Carthaginian archers parked themselves on on the mine near York. I took a new Catapult in York and killed one, and risked one of York's archers @30% to kill the other before it could pillage. I actually won that fight, so no damage done, except a couple of wounded units.

4) On the domestic front: Athens built its courthouse, and i am chopping for its library, as its border pop is the first priority. We discovered Copper in a mine near London for an extra 2 hammers :). It's building a forge, as is York. Workers have improved much around Corinth, as that city should come online very quickly and help our flailing economy. On the bright side we're breakeven at 20% research now :).

Here's the autolog.
Spoiler :
Turn 193/660 (395 AD) [12-Jan-2008 16:46:08]
York finishes: Chariot

Turn 194/660 (410 AD) [12-Jan-2008 16:48:30]
Utica begins: Archer (8 turns)
War Elephant promoted: Combat III
While attacking in English territory at Corinth, War Elephant defeats (5.36/8): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
London finishes: War Elephant
Utica finishes: Archer

Turn 195/660 (425 AD) [12-Jan-2008 16:52:15]
London begins: Catapult (5 turns)
A Farm was built
Tech learned: Sailing
London grows: 6

Turn 196/660 (440 AD) [12-Jan-2008 16:56:31]
Research begun: Meditation (3 Turns)
While attacking in Greek territory near Utica, War Elephant defeats (5.36/8): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
A Mine was built near Corinth
A Cottage was built near Athens

Turn 197/660 (455 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:01:02]

Turn 198/660 (470 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:05:39]
A Camp was built near York
Tech learned: Meditation
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 199/660 (485 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:08:30]
Research begun: Monotheism (6 Turns)
While attacking in English territory near Kerkouane, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Carthaginian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Research begun: Metal Casting (6 Turns)
London finishes: Catapult

Turn 200/660 (500 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:34:51]
London begins: Catapult (5 turns)
A Camp was built near York
Utica grows: 3
Athens finishes: Courthouse

Turn 201/660 (515 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:37:20]
Athens begins: Library (20 turns)
A Farm was built near Corinth
Athens begins: Trireme (11 turns)
Athens begins: Library (20 turns)
York grows: 7

Turn 202/660 (530 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:42:42]
York finishes: Courthouse

Turn 203/660 (545 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:45:57]
York begins: Catapult (5 turns)
A Cottage was built near Athens
Tech learned: Metal Casting
London finishes: Catapult

Turn 204/660 (560 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:48:14]
Research begun: Calendar (14 Turns)
London begins: Forge (13 turns)
London grows: 7

Turn 205/660 (575 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:51:32]

Turn 206/660 (590 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:53:21]
A Mine was built near Corinth
York finishes: Catapult
Corinth grows: 4

Turn 207/660 (605 AD) [12-Jan-2008 17:55:33]
York begins: Forge (13 turns)
Catapult promoted: Combat I
Catapult promoted: Combat II
While attacking in English territory at York, Catapult defeats (0.75/5): Carthaginian Archer (Prob Victory: 70.0%)
While attacking in English territory at York, Archer defeats (0.36/3): Carthaginian Archer (Prob Victory: 30.6%)

Turn 208/660 (620 AD) [12-Jan-2008 18:00:15]
Archer promoted: City Garrison II
 
risked one of York's archers @30% to kill the other before it could pillage. I actually won that fight, so no damage done, except a couple of wounded units.
Woot! It's a pity we're losing cats and elees, but at least we're keeping... archers :dubious: ;) .

Sounds like a good TS, I'll check the save later. :goodjob:
 
Screenies? :D

Graph gazing:
Most teams seem to be ahead of us in score, with CRC's lead being terrifying
CRC lost a lot of power recently. Could be that they're fighting a lot too.
 
Screenies:
Spoiler :
Sparta:
sparta0000.jpg

North Territory:
north_territory0000.jpg

Carthage:
carthage0001.jpg

South MM:
mm_south0000.jpg

North MM:
mm_north0000.jpg
 
Good one Civ, let's hope you changed your relation with the RNG.
Good SS, i almost didn't see what i unvealed in my TS.
Don't forget to always keep 2 units in the cities, we're not safe, except perhaps in London.

I remember that the GW double GG XPs for combats inside our borders, and we fought a good number.

Merum, time to apply your strategy if you're still convinced.
Anyway, next GG in another production city and the trick is almost done.

Graph:
surely CRC is doing well, and i'm not too concerned by other teams higher score or power: in the long run the Oracle should pay.
When we decided that strategy, we was thinking to the mid game, we're still on the early (i hope).
 
I still feel that my proposed strategy is the best course of action.

I believe that the switch to MC before Mono was a mistake. What I didn't state before, regretfully, is that I think we should have gone to monotheism first, and switched into OR. Once in OR, we could have built at least some of our forges 25% faster, and also cranked out the missionaries for our target production cities.

At this point, we need to switch research to mono, because if we continue to research calendar at this rate, we will run out of research money unless we capture a city or have really good pillaging results, and it's getting to a point where there's not much left to pillage.

It was a good move on Civ's part to pull the stack back and allow some archers to leave. Next player needs to be sure to mug that settler stack.

We should compile a list of cities and what we want to do with them at this point:

Keepers: Carthage, Djenne, Hadrumetum

Maybes: Sparta, Timbuktu

Raze: Kumbi Saleh, Gao, Kerkouane, Saxon, Hurrian

Then we're going to hit a fork in the road. I have little doubt that we can take down the remaining civs on our continent. What my primary concern is at this point is that by the time we meet the others, we will be so backwards that they will roll us. We're going to have to find a way to keep up in research so that we don't find ourselves an age behind.

EDIT: Remember last SGOTM when CRC disbanded a bunch of their units just prior to the win, driving down their power graph. If we see that sort of pattern again, it's time to worry, I think.

There are at least 3 civs we have yet to meet, and my spidey sense tells me that we're looking at Rome, Inca, and Spain.

Finally, IMO, we must find those other civs as quickly as possible. Somebody is already at Theology, and the strategy of "hoping for an AI war" is, IMO, hopelessly flawed. We shouldn't trust or hope for anything we cannot directly control. What I see when I look at the graphs is that CRC whipped out military as quickly as possible, took control of their continent, and is likely looking to wage intercontinental war at this point. I still feel that we are way behind where we should be. There are at least 5 teams ahead of us, and some of them even ahead of CRC. I don't like being the doomcrier, but I don't think we should be patting ourselves on the back. Always War isn't a game of long-run tactics.
 
Keepers: Carthage, Djenne, if it has at least one dye plantation intact, Timbuktu, if it still has both banana's intact.

Or Djenne and Timbuktu if we have calendar & enough workers.
 
We can wait, but Saxons is worth keeping, IMO.
For the Malinese cities can be OK, we have at least 2 TSs to decide.
 
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