SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

Sweetacshon · Jan 15, 2008

Ahh... the roster! Well, I have it. I won't have time to lay until tomorrow night (fingers crossed), but can probably put my plan forward in the morning. One thing I will say now is:

Keepers: Carthage, Djenne, Hadrumetum

Maybes: Sparta, Timbuktu

Raze: Kumbi Saleh, Gao, Kerkouane, Saxon, Hurrian

I don't think we should keep Hadrumetum or Sparta.

Merum · Jan 15, 2008

I list Hadrumetum as a keeper because it has the wineries. If in fact we can get the benefit of these wines without having monarchy as Blubmuz says (I didn't know this before and haven't verified it). Also, it appears to be a cultural bridge to another landmass. It may just be an island, but it may be the path to other civs as well. There's another set of trees in the fog of the Carthage coast.

It and Sparta are also coastal, and we're going to need cities to build navy.

culdeus · Jan 15, 2008

Merum said:
I list Hadrumetum as a keeper because it has the wineries. If in fact we can get the benefit of these wines without having monarchy as Blubmuz says (I didn't know this before and haven't verified it). Also, it appears to be a cultural bridge to another landmass. It may just be an island, but it may be the path to other civs as well. There's another set of trees in the fog of the Carthage coast.

It and Sparta are also coastal, and we're going to need cities to build navy.

You get the improvement benefit, but not the

BLubmuz · Jan 15, 2008

That's what i meant.

Not much to add, except

Kill'em, kill'em all!!!

And if we keep those cities, courthouses are precious

Sweetacshon · Jan 15, 2008

The way forward is fairly obvious. Take out Alex's settler stack, crush Sparta 300 times or whatever happened, I'm a little vague on the historical details.. and move onto Carthage.

Questions:
Do we keep sparta? I know we need a port over there, but the production certainly isn't good, nor is it ideal for cottaging or food. So, for what reason should we keep it
Is it worth doing the OR thing? I count about 700 :hammers:

that need to be used on courts, forges, grans, and libs where applicable to city types, 900 if you count monuments (see next point). This, of course, will increase if we keep Sparta or if we get Carthage in time, so take it as a minimum. 1/5 of 700 is 140 :hammers:

(180 with mons) which is the +25% OR bonus, the cost being about 50 :hammers:

, our current output lost during 1 turn of anarchy. Seems worth it to me. I'd like to switch research now (build units in the meantime), go to OR and get the buildings done, then get into "Merum's XP Plan"tm.
Monuments? We get a +1

charismatic bonus for a mere 45 :hammer monument. Too easy. The trouble is that calendar obsoletes them, so we have to get them in before calendar comes in.

I can play tonight.

Merum · Jan 15, 2008

I think Sparta in the near term is not as worthwhile as Hadrumetum, so if I had to choose, I would choose Hadrumetum and the possible culture bridge over keeping Sparta. We already have horses elsewhere.

I also think OR is the way to go until our infrastructure is built out. Did you figure the required missionaries into your count?

BLubmuz · Jan 16, 2008

I think is better raze Sparta and keep Hadrumetum.
Yes, i think is better build some structure, and OR will be of help.
Take count of another turn of anarchy, and that we must choose a religion (hindu or confu? this is the question)and convert the cities without that religion.
This is necessary also for Merum's XP plan (tm)
Not sure, but i think that when monument obsoletes, the

goes away.
Can anyone verify?
Anyway we're plenty of calendar resources, i don't think

is a problem.

Sweetacshon · Jan 16, 2008

Here you go, team.

The short of it is that we're in OR and confucian, and while we researched mono, a few more cats were made, then it was back to forges, etc. The plan to get monuments in before Calendar is going ok, but Corinth, iirc is lagging, so we may have to chop... or whatever. I didn't pop the GP yet, it didn't seem worth it if OR is being used for the moment. We actually probably have enough to take out Hannibal, and maybe MM from what I've seen, with the units we have now, plus a few more cats

Sparta (after a long internal debate) is no more, and Carthage is ours. Kerk is under siege and should fall in a turn or 2, and as soon as the stack heals in Carthage, it can move onto Hadrum..

We have just the 1 trireme out at the moment, moving north up the west coast... with nothing yet. What we need to discuss, imo, is techs. We arte going for calendar (although happiness is not an issue), but what next? Lit for the HE, CS/machinery, compass, monarchy, turn science off and pump units?

Spoiler 15 turns :

edit

While attacking in English territory at York, War Elephant loses to: Malinese Skirmisher (1.00/4) (Prob Victory: 93.1%)

Awww... come on. Worse is that I had to whip it out of York, as I was feeling uncomfortable about having so many cats and skirmishers around. *sigh* Btw, Merum, I am fairly certain those are islands off the east coast, and that we won't need culture to get to them. Perhaps it'll need a city on the island, though... who knows?

It's funny how CRC's power graph kinks. Did they find another continent? Murky is averaging 10 posts a turn. Ludicrous.

Roster:
Sweetacshon - dead
Merum - up
Greatbeyond
Blubmuz
Civicide

dutchfire · Jan 16, 2008

While defending in English territory at Corinth, Worker loses to: Greek Archer (3.00/3) (Prob Victory: 60.2%)

I'm so mad we didn't win that battle

Good work Sweet!

culdeus · Jan 16, 2008

Can someone shoot some screens of the major cities? I'm trying to wrap my hands around the cash pinch here. As soon as the continent is all English I have doubts we'll be solvent still. What's the root cause? WW? Lack of commerce tiles able to be worked?

This is a similar problem to when you can't trade techs. And in this case you can't even STEAL techs. A low tech % will mean certain death going into the Bang and Boom years.

Merum · Jan 16, 2008

I have the save. I'll probably play tonight(5 to 7 hours from now), unless something comes up.

We are still in representation, which is kind of steaming me a little. We don't need the happiness, and have exactly two specialists running, for a whopping 6 :science:

per turn. This is a tremendous waste of civic, IMO. How is this better than +25% military production in an always war game?

My plans: Put us into PS, heal the army, and continue the rampage.

Sweetacshon · Jan 16, 2008

If we have a tech goal in mind, let's stay with rep and hire 4 scientists in London and Athens - as I said, we have enough units to roll Hanni and MM. The XP plan is the way to go, certainly, but we if we build a massive army with nowhere to go, we will sink.

Spoiler pics :

edit:I was thinking about the (soon to be) obsolete monuments... and perhaps we'll only keep the + :culture:

and not the +

, as this is what happens with wonders. I'm just not sure.

Merum · Jan 17, 2008

12 Turns

Quick Summary:

Combat Status
Kerkouane razed.
Hadrumetum kept.
Djenne Kept.
Units lost: 2 cats at Djenne

Research Status
Calendar finished
Monarchy Finished
Feudalism started

Economy Status
Sucks.

General Commentary
I stayed in rep and hired some scientists. Might as well go for theo, PS, and Vassalage all in one shot.
Mansa has longbows. Build more cats!
Taking Hadrumetum didn't finish Hanni. He's got a hidden city someplace, or a wandering settler.
A GG was born in London during the battle of Djenne.
There appears to be coast across the straits NW of London. I marked it with signs. Our Trireme is island-hopping over to look at it.
Lots of fat towns around Timbutku. We should make it our next target, and try to keep it intact.
Mansa has triremes hassling our fisheries in ex-Carthage.

Sorry, I don't have time to deal with pics, it's late and I need to get up early.

Autolog

Spoiler :

Save Log

Spoiler :

The save

Roster:
Greatbeyond - Up
Blubmuz
Civicide
Sweetacshon
Merum - resting

Sweetacshon · Jan 17, 2008

I'll probably play tonight(5 to 7 hours from now)

Don't take this the wrong way, Merum, I'm not trying to get personal

but I feel this doesn't give us all a chance to voice opinions on the way forward. The combat plan was straight forward, but I don't think we are all agreed on the grand strategy.

Sorry, I don't have time to deal with pics, it's late and I need to get up early.

Why not wait until the next day... we are one of the leading groups in terms of turns, so no time pressure.

The game: sorry to be critical without being constructive, but I will write more when I get a better look at the save.

Merum · Jan 17, 2008

I won't take it personally, but here is my response to your feedback:

I didn't do anything that contradicts with what has been discussed over the past few turnsets with regard to strategy. In fact, I stayed in a civic that I have been quite vocally against for the sake of team play. My research path is clearly in line with what needs to be done to support the "XP Plan" which appears to be the consensus choice for the "Best Path".

I feel that 7 hours is more than enough time to make comments on the stated plan, and in fact you did comment prior to my playing the turnset after I stated what I planned to do. Adding the time from when you posted the save, there were 13 hours to comment on the progress of the game before I began play.

Don't take this personally

, but you posted stating that you would play and then posted your results 12.5 hours later. My results were posted 10.5 hours after my post stating my plan. I also seem to remember a comment regarding another team and the amount of posts per turn played.

Finally, I'll say this: If we don't have a strategy that can support a turnset being played without massive discussion about what to do next, we're cooked. Strategy is what happens in the long term. Tactics are what happens over a turnset. If we want to adopt as a team a policy of "comment period" prior to playing a turnset, then let's do that. I'm not sure it's necessary, we're all players capable of playing at this level.

I'm not upset or angry about this conversation in the slightest bit. If we need to do some team housekeeping, then let's do it, and move on.

Merum · Jan 17, 2008

Now for screenies:

Spoiler :

dutchfire · Jan 17, 2008

Judging by demographics, it seems that Hannibal still has a city, not a settler.

BTW, I suppose we're close to popping our next GP, at 188 points, right? Are we sure what to do with him already?

Do our new cities have all other necessary infrastructure already? I like to build courts later, since they're so expensive. Building a cheap building could be more efficient, since it can be whipped easily.

Civicide · Jan 17, 2008

Okay, a few thoughts (warning: long Civicide post coming; I can feel it).

City micromanagement:

London isn't currently working its gold mine. That's a mistake. The gold is still more useful than the scientist, if it's a choice between the two. We also need to get our workers in the area (we have 4 @York) to put plantations on those bananas, which has always been necessary for the city to fully thrive.

York is doing well, though its farmed bananas also need a plantation. With that plantation it should be stagnant at size 9 with a massive 23 base production.

Athens I'm not happy with how we're managing. It should be working its seafood first and prioritizing its growth before worrying about its cottaged tiles. I would remove all specialists and let it work its 3 seafood + sheep, the gold, and the copper, where it has a food surplus of 12 and will grow in 2 turns (which can then become our specialists, or work the cottaged tiles, whichever we want). It can also crank out a settler in 7 turns.

Corinth is building a forge and I'm not quite sure why. Its base production is only 9 and its borders haven't popped yet; after they do there's another FP we can cottage. A Library should be the priority in my opinion, as its commerce will help out greatly.

Utica has the makings of a decent combo city with passable production and passable commerce. It's the city with our 3rd best potential production.

Carthage should whip its courthouse immediately: 2 pop which is unhappy anyway, and 5gpt saved.

Hadrumentum I'm not particularly excited we chose to keep, though I didn't speak out against it so I can't complain. It's useless. The wineries will be marginal at best, and there's no real production to speak of.

Djenne should be a fantastic commerce city and should be able to get up to 18 commerce at size 3, with the dyes, and has lots of cottageable river grassland tiles to use. 10 base production as well, not terrible for managing its buildings.

Timbuktu should be our next target and its developed towns make it a definite keeper. Taking it should break Mansa's economic back as Kumbi Saleh has been pillaged to death and Gao is basically useless. Too bad 2 of his remaining 3 cities (that we can see) are on hills.

Our Economy is my biggest concern. Right now we are still losing money even at 0% research, although Djenne should develop quickly. IMO its border pop is even more important than a courthouse, as working those two dye spots is worth 12 commerce, while the courthouse will only save us along the lines of 4 gpt. I would whip a Library there first thing. Otherwise get a missionary there now.

Additionally, with the luxury of Athens' food resources, we might want to quickly crank out a couple of Settlers there and settle our rice/gold and gold x2 city sites. Although you could argue that the last thing we need at this point is more cities, these should very quickly make up their maintenance costs (particularly since they'll be close to the capital). Additionally the rice/gold city has a ton of cottageable grassland, although it would require a lot of worker love with all the jungle.

Militaristically we just need to keep doing what we're doing. With enough cats and dumbos, the remainder of MM's cities are just a matter of time. I love that we have multiple level 5 units. Too bad Literature is a lifetime away; the HE in London would be just ridiculous.

I'd bet money that Hannibal has a city off the SE coast somewhere, it's just a matter of finding it.

Taking the 3 remaining MM cities (that we can see) should fund our coffers for a push to Feudalism, although that might be tight. From there we can execute Merum's max-xp plan.

Great People: I think we should settle our GG in either London or York, to double-down on that XP bonus. When we get our 4th GG, and we will, it will go in the other city. The reason being:

Technology: After Feudalism, we need to do whatever it takes to dribble out Horseback Riding from our flailing economy. The reason: Stables. Then in whichever of our cities we settle our 2nd GG, our Elephants will start off with an insane 13xp, just enough for level 5, four promotions. That's just nuts

From there it just becomes a matter of keeping our economy afloat at 0% research and finishing off our unseen rivals before they get rifles. With Combat 4 elephants running around right out of the gate, that should be quite possible.

BLubmuz · Jan 17, 2008

Sorry Sweeta, but i agree with Merum.
7 to 12 hours or so is not a long time, but the main strategy has been decided, and his TS was only a matter of tactics.

We can revise our strategy if someone can propose something new, but i think, reading the long but useful Civ's post that we're doing well, or at least we're doing what we planned to do from the time our decisions were taken.

Small adjustements to the MM of cities, a library instead of a courthouse or things like that can be discussed after each TS.

For now i can say that, since we choose to have a SR, better convert all our cities to that religion, hoping to not fail.

The good use for the (possible) 2nd GProphet is the Confu Shrine, to help our poor economy.

If we have a 3rd GG i think the best thing is to put him in Athens, to help with the Navy.

I'm concerned by the last (hopefully) Hanni's city, i hope it's not on a island.

And we must keep some chariot North of London, to watch Mansa.

edit
our links are up-to-date
Graph: many teams are over us, but i think they will drop with time. I can't understand what CRC is doing.

@greatbeyond
7 days without a post in this thread is a long time, i hope you don't have problems.
In case let us know.
For now, if you don't post a "got it" in 24 hours from this post, i'll grab the save.

greatbeyond · Jan 17, 2008

I have been busy but also practicing an important kind of restraint,
~It is better to remain silent and have people think you are an idiot, than to speak and remove all doubt~ (Mark Twain?)
I will grab the save tonight and take a look in depth, ..finishing my Civ3SGOTM turn tonight.

Some quick thoughts:
Should we build 2 galleys and try to land Troops near the other Civs (when we find them) to carry out pillaging actions? I am afraid that if we ignore them too long they will get so strong we may not be able to kill them off. I suppose on the other hand that if we kill off MM without meeting any of the other civs we may enjoy a period without war weariness. Is it worth it to limit our exploration?

We won't have to worry about the Barbs on our continent with us having the Great Wall, thus there isn't any hurry for us to build more cities. We can let the Barbs build them and we can capture or raze as our needs dictate.

Has anyone calculated the number of tiles visible and the number needed for victory? Is there a chance of getting close to the Dom limit with just what we see?

Capturing and razing MM's cities will probably relieve our money worries for a little while, but we must be prepared when the money starts to run out. I would suggest doing that ASAP, and cottaging like mad.

Any suggestions on research path?

I will probably start my TS in about 20 hours, I will pause if something important comes up.

SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

In the foetal position

Permanent Jet Lag

Emperor

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Permanent Jet Lag

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Deity

Emperor

Permanent Jet Lag

In the foetal position

Permanent Jet Lag

In the foetal position

Permanent Jet Lag

Permanent Jet Lag

Deity

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

King

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