SGOTM 06 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[ruff_hi]

sure do it - just make sure you click on the chariot, select 'go to' grab a printscreen then close your eyes and think nice computer thoughts. Save without looking at results and post original screenshot and 'battle continues' comment.

 

[LKendter]

Oh, jeez, may I load the save up and just run that chariot up the hill against that archer and the load it back up again.

IIRC this may cause an issue with Alan. I seem to remember a comment somewhat not to upload the game twice for the same date.
I would advise against it.

 

[ruff_hi]

won't moving the chariot finish our turn - there aren't other units to move? In that case, hit return and save prior to starting the next turn - then upload. The turn counter should move on by 1.

 

[Compromise]

Yes, do it. Charge the hill. (If you feel like it, look around and make any build modifications you deem appropriate.) Then end the turn and save at the beginning of the next turn.

TheArchduke has the priority on this for one hour from the time of this post. After that, first person to post gets to do it.

 

[TheArchduke]

It just would be nice to finalize Athens and then we can start our discussion.

Probably on how to salvage this situation.

But really, after we lost so many troops we can really afford that suicide chariot, I am confused on why you didn´t attack in the first place, so please do it.

 

[ruff_hi]

I have it (if I can run the save - will let you know shortly) and will be sending the chariot up the hill.

 

[ruff_hi]

It wasn't even close ... we lost. Stupid archer had 31 HPs and 1 of our hits does 15 ... need 3 hits to kill, we got 1.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG006_BC0550_01.CivWarlordsSave

Spoiler log :

Turn 129, 565 BC: Churchill's Chariot (2.59) vs Alexander's Archer (2.97)
Turn 129, 565 BC: Combat Odds: 34.4%
Turn 129, 565 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 129, 565 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 129, 565 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 129, 565 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 129, 565 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 129, 565 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 25 (29/100HP)
Turn 129, 565 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 15 (16/100HP)
Turn 129, 565 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 25 (4/100HP)
Turn 129, 565 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 565 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Chariot!
Turn 129, 565 BC: Your Chariot has died trying to attack a Archer!

 

[LKendter]

But really, after we lost so many troops we can really afford that suicide chariot, I am confused on why you didn't attack in the first place, so please do it.

I am not sure if this is directed at me or not. The reason I didn't do it is with having one lousy unit *keeping* Athens didn't look viable. I felt the team should have been involved in the retreat or try (raze or keep) decision. In a personal game I would have aborted to guard the copper again.
We now WILL face axes due to everyone obsession on trying it and not considering blocking the copper once again.

What did I have to do to make it clearer that I was done with the turn? Suffering though that [censored] attack was bad enough. All this chatter about my turn being "incomplete" is making it worse.

 

[TheArchduke]

Apologies if I offend you, it was not intended. I didn´t see any reason to discuss whetever to keep or raze it and I like to see my attacks through despite the bad odds. A presumption on my part which was not ok.

However next time you can really ask for a skip if you don´t want to pull of such an attack, no problem there.

In any case, our attack on Athens failed and close at that.
So it looks like we need to establish a third city, dig in and prepare a sword/catapult expedition force. This won´t be pretty or easy.

 

[Compromise]

Okay, our gamble for Athens came up snake eyes. LK, I thought you did fine on the attack. We came up just short on a coin flip. My confusion in the last page was not realizing that you'd posted the save at the start of your report; I'm just used to seeing it at the end. Let's move on.

Kodii, you're up (as you know). I suspect we'll have some discussion while we figure how to proceed.

Short-term: Mansa has two skirmishers threatening York's cows. I think Chariots should attack on the pasture. Axe and spear are backup.

Also, Alex's 4-archer stack has arrived at the southern border. We don't really have a good way to defend him. The priority is to keep the copper mine intact. I guess I'd move the axe to the jungle hill and move 2 chariots to the jungle to force him to attack either a highly defending position or 2 units. I'm open to tactics suggestions.

We'll need more units for homeland defense now.

I think this is the time to brainstorm. We are only about 30T away from Construction. I think it would be too much of a delay to found an Iron-grabbing city. I think we should take that city Alex has near the elephants with axes and cats. Then, we can use axes, elephants and cats until we find a city with Iron (which may not be strictly necessary).

I also think we want to think seriously about the long-term game.

I honestly can't imagine that there are any other AIs on this continent. Also, we haven't seen any AI boats, even from Ragnar, so I doubt all, and maybe not even any, AIs are reachable by galley from the west coast.

That leaves the east coast. Here's my thinking: Conquest will be the fastest victory type and that requires reaching all of the AIs. If all of the AIs are reachable by galleys, then we have already lost because somebody will have taken a similar gamble, won, and be uncatchable by us.

Our only hope to place well compared to the other SGOTM teams is to assume that the AIs require Astronomy to reach and hope that we can use the bigger, more-developed cities we will capture from our continent's AIs to more quickly reach Astronomy and conquer the AIs on their little islands.

I'm thinking about it, but it's not clear to me what the fastest way to get to Astronomy with a winning army/navy is. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I still think we should get the Iron/Cows city going before attacking. London doesn't have that many good tiles to work, so whipping a settler is no biggie.

And we shouldn't attack those skirmisher with STR4 chariots if we want to win the battle!

As to the long-term, there might be a chance of a 'Ragnar-gate' city off the coast of London, so we need a coastal city to get a WB looking around

 

[Compromise]

London does need some improvement. But mines (for units) or cottages (for tech)? We could whip a settler, but with all the AIs--actually, maybe not Mansa--having strategic resources, we're going to be deluged soon.

Casualties are likely to be high with the chariots, but it's probably better to use them first to soften up the skirmishers rather than using the more expensive melee units.

As to Ragnar-gate, that's an overall strategy question. If there is a coastal/cultural route to the other AIs, I think we've lost. I don't see how we can compete with other teams which (presumably) didn't lose 500H+ of units so early with little to show for it.

I do agree that a scouting workboat or galley (or trireme?) is a good idea. Knowledge is power. But my feeling is that it could wait a bit.

I don't think that necessarily puts us out of the running (though it might), but I think it does mean that we have to make some other gambles to be competitive.

In this case, the only thing I can think of is that other teams will own this continent before us (seems pretty likely), but that then they will have to wait for Astronomy to proceed. We might be able to time the continent conquest and Astronomy discovery more closely. A possible advantage to us is that our units would then be more advanced (maces/xbows instead of swords/axes) and we might have more of them (having faced bigger stacks). They might also be able to hop onto galleons quickly and keep fighting, whereas the others will either have to be supported and upgraded, or disbanded and regenerated.

We'll probably get more cash from captured cities, and they might have enough cottages to support the additional cost if we keep them. But I doubt this will offset the increased military cost to us to acquire them.

We might want to consider a specialist economy, but I'm not very experienced with those, and am not sure if they will help us here or not. (Maybe if Alex builds us the Pyramids!)

Also, because we have no built or captured wonders, we might be able to fine tune some great person production to get a couple of Scientists to help us bulb Optics and Astronomy. (Not sure. Haven't looked to check the GP tech route.)

Are there other ways we can compete with a team (or teams) which optimize the early conquering of the continent? Maybe there's some way to conquer our island last? (Though I seriously can't think of how that would be advantageous. Maybe weaken the AIs and milk them for promotions, but then wouldn't WW be unbearable?)

 

[Kodii]

Got it.. but it seems as if my turnset is still rather nebulous. I'll take a look tomorrow and make some comments and hopefully we can have a clear look ahead before I play.

 

[Compromise]

Kodii, here are a few comments from me about your turnset (and a little beyond).

1) Survive. We have incoming Mali skirmishers (2) in the north and incoming Greek archers (4) in the south. No sign of anything from Hannibal yet, but he's had horses for quite a while. (In an earlier post, I think I had some micromanaging advice that you can consider, but use your best judgment in-game.)

2) More units. No matter what we do, I think we need more units before anything else. Either for defense of for pillaging parties depending on RNG luck.

3) Tech to construction. Unless anyone has a better idea, I think we'll be wanting cats asap.

Items for discussion:
a) Where or whether an iron-grabbing city. With Stonehenge on our continent and in a non-hill city, I'm tempted to plant the city 2N of the copper. That's coastal, has fish, and has lots of mines after some jungles are chopped.

b) Next use of troops: I think a set of pillaging parties (at least to Carthage and Alex) would be first. Then, I'd send some axes and cats to take Alex's elephant city and Spartahenge.

c) Post-construction tech: Not sure. Do we want to play any Great Scientist tech pop games toward Optics or Astronomy?

 

[sunrise089]

I agree with Compromise. I also think the question of Great Scientists could be answered after we get a scouting ship out to run around the coast for us.

 

[Kodii]

I think I have a pretty good idea of what to do..... so hopefully I can sneak my turns in today.

 

[Kodii]

T1 535BC - Mansa's Skirmishers are successfully defeated with 0 casualties; I take revenge and capture a Greek worker

T2 520BC - Alex, being the King of RNG, kills one of our chariots with barely a scratch.

T3 505BC - We continue to dance with Alex, who is determined to get into London somehow, but we keep blockading him out

T4 490BC - Alex, being the genius that he is, attacks with his injured archer, loses, then retreats; We get a GG in London; our chariot kills a barb archer

I pause here because I feel as if I shouldn't let our GG sit until the end of my turnset. Lets decide what to do with him now. I don't recall reading any discussion on it in the past.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG006_BC0490_01.CivWarlordsSave

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 550 BC to 490 BC:


Turn 131, 535 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 131, 535 BC: Your Spearman has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Skirmisher (4.00)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Combat Odds: 72.5%
Turn 131, 535 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Mansa Musa's Skirmisher!
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.40) vs Mansa Musa's Skirmisher (2.97)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Combat Odds: 91.7%
Turn 131, 535 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 131, 535 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 21 (41/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 21 (20/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Mansa Musa's Skirmisher!
Turn 131, 535 BC: Alexander's Archer (3.60) vs Churchill's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Combat Odds: 37.3%
Turn 131, 535 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 131, 535 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Chariot!

Turn 132, 520 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 132, 520 BC: York will grow to size 4 on the next turn

Turn 133, 505 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 133, 505 BC: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 133, 505 BC: You have discovered Masonry!
Turn 133, 505 BC: York has grown to size 4
Turn 133, 505 BC: Alexander's Archer (3.47) vs Churchill's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Combat Odds: 35.0%
Turn 133, 505 BC: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (69/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (49/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (29/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (9/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 133, 505 BC: Timur (Great General) has been born in London (Churchill)!
Turn 133, 505 BC: While defending, your Chariot has killed a Greek Archer!

Turn 134, 490 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 134, 490 BC: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 134, 490 BC: Churchill's Chariot (3.78) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Combat Odds: 73.3%
Turn 134, 490 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 134, 490 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (70/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (54/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (38/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (22/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 490 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 134, 490 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Archer!

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd settle him in London as an Instructor: we'll be attacking with same-era units as the AIs for a while and we want a combat edge more than we need to keep the attack stack rolling (so I'd make the second GG a medic3 chariot).

 

[LKendter]

I pause here because I feel as if I shouldn't let our GG sit until the end of my turn set. Let's decide what to do with him now. I don't recall reading any discussion on it in the past.

The big question is if we more concerned about healing, or stronger troops. Stronger troops mean merging the general into the cattle / horse site as that one is pure military and will stay that we.

My preference to merge the GG into cow / horses.

 

[Kodii]

Voting time?

1) Merge into London - Swiss
2) Merge into York - Lee, Kodii
3) Medic 3 Chariot

I voted for York purely because we have designated the city as military only. The instructor in London might not provide us with as much York's would.