SGOTM 06 - The Real Ms. Beyond

The discussion seems to have died down. I assume that means we need more info to figure out how to proceed. TheArchduke, would you mind running a few turns of your turnset to see 1) what Hannibal's capital looks like and 2) whether or not we can deny Alex his Copper.

I can't think of any (good) reason not to go for Writing as the next tech. I'd probably build the axe in London to within a turn of completion before finishing the barracks so that the axe is available if the need arises, but will be promoted if not. York can only spam chariots for now.
 
The discussion seems to have died down. I assume that means we need more info to figure out how to proceed. TheArchduke, would you mind running a few turns of your turnset to see 1) what Hannibal's capital looks like and 2) whether or not we can deny Alex his Copper.

I can't think of any (good) reason not to go for Writing as the next tech. I'd probably build the axe in London to within a turn of completion before finishing the barracks so that the axe is available if the need arises, but will be promoted if not. York can only spam chariots for now.

Will run a part of my turnset in this evening (12 hours from now on). I will stop as soon as we have enough info on the pillager and Hanns capital.
 
Archduke, in case you read this before you play, I think there are still some signs on the map indicating Mansa's location and the place where we met Hannibal's scout. Since we now know where their cities are, we don't need those signs anymore.

[/micromanagement]
 
Save is uploaded http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG006_BC1270_01.CivWarlordsSave

My turnset was 4 turns:

Everything looks good.

1360 BC

I kill another archer of Alex and scout Hannibals capital. Only one! Archer and no hill.

1330 BC

With London on size 4 I can go on 90% science again. Our pillager may get another promotion.

1300 BC

Alex shows up south of London with a warrior and an archer, I move two chariots south to counter them

1270 BC

And Hannibal has copper as well, which I pillage asap, and our greek axe manages to overcome the archer protecting the copper (had to promote him with cover.


Hannibal has 2! religions and a measly military, he whipped a second archer in panic as I approached his city. His copper is pillaged and Alex has no copper next turn. It looks like Hannibal is easy to hit and a soft target.

But as expected, Alex sends troops already at us, so an early hit is imo still the right plan.
 
Alex still hadn't put a road to his copper mine? Well, good for us I guess.

I think the next order of business is to get a spear or two over to Hannibal asap and disconnect his horses. A chariot over to Sparta to disconnect those horses too.

I also think we should scout--using a chariot--the east side of Mansa's capital.

If we can keep copper, iron and horses out of the hands of all the AIs, taking the continent will be a cakewalk.

Let's discuss sword vs. axe rush. I'm leaning slightly in favor of an axe rush on Alex just because he won't have metal. (Or horses, I hope.)
 
Axe rush Alex. We can connect the iron later for the other AIs.

TheArchduke: I assume you stopped so we could discuss whether or not we should switch our direction in favor of Hannibal?
 
I'd actually requested that Archduke only run a few turns so that we could see whether or not Alex had copper. If Alex had copper, I'd be less inclined to do an axe rush with him.

I'll be looking over the game tonight to try to generate some more suggestions. I think an axe rush is the order of the day. Some early axes could probably get a little experience by taking out Sparta. Would we keep it?
 
Nods, I thought we should have a small discussion at least. Though I am still heavily leaning towards an axe rush. He is already scouting us and it will not get better. Hannibal should be easily pillageable.
 
I think axes should for the core of our forces but I'd like a couple of suicide swords to take out Alex's top defenders.

I'd also move the warrior out of Carthage onto the forest hill by the Iron. At this time, I don't think it's worth scouting Mali: Alex will be tough, so let's focus on him for now.
 
I see that Mansa's workers have fled Timbuktu. And it looks like Mansa has another city south of Timbuktu (some borders visible). Too bad. I was hoping to keep those workers tied up.

I guess I'd be willing to risk the warrior near Carthage to see if we can pillage that horse. If he could do that and then park on the hill 2S of Carthage, his Woody promotion might be enough to keep Hannibal training archers until we can get to him.

After the worker finishes the London-York road, I'd recommend at least one mine (probably the one on the river SE of London) and then cottages on the dye and the other banana.

Countdown to an axe rush on Athens:

I've done a little turn counting. Let's say we want 10 axes to take on Athens. I'll assume that all the troops we have already produced will be on homeland security duty (or will have to be replaced). York will soon be able to make 12hpt and, if we mine a grass hill, London will be able to make 15hpt. That's about half an axe per turn between the two cities, so it will take us about 20T to build up 10 new axes.

Then its another 15T--total of 35T--to get the last axe down to strike position (1N of Alex's copper mine). For reference, I think that brings us to 600-somethingBC for the assault on Athens. Techwise, at our current rate, that corresponds to finishing Writing and Mathematics.

It sure would be nice of Alex to build us a stone-based wonder before then :).

Thoughts on bringing swords to Athens:

If we go for swords, we're going to add quite a bit to that time estimate. Probably a bare minimum of 10T (and that would require whipping) to get a settler. 5T to get to city location. 6T to mine the Iron, 3T to connect it. Total of 24T (or 15T if we settle directly on the iron). And that only gets us Iron in the Iron city itself, which at this point is still not connected to the core and would have no improved tiles (other than the iron, if we settle 1NE of iron) to work.

It's about 12 worker-turns to road to the new city location, and requires producing another worker...maybe 5T? Some of that would overlap the city generation and iron connection time, but we're also running a small London because we've whipped the settler.

I'm guessing that we won't have sword-building ability in the core for about 30T, and then it will take 4-5T per sword. So that's about 40T before a second sword is heading south from the core, and he'll take about 12T to get there. 240 hammers in settler+worker is 5 axes, so I'm going to guesstimate that we can bring 8 axes and 2 swords to Athens in about 55T.

So, an axe rush is about 35T away. A sword-supported axe assault is about 55T away. Given our net axe production rate of an axe per 2T, I think it's probably more efficient to just go with axes.

Comparison to "Construction turtling":

For reference, at our current tech rate, we would have Construction in about 85T. Even earlier--maybe 75T?--if we turtled a bit and worked a cottage or two in both London and York. After Construction, a city--built or captured depending on whether an AI prioritizes those elephants--would be bringing us an extra happy, elephants, and catapults.

While waiting for Construction, we'd be generating a few troops for homeland security and sending a couple "advanced" units (chariot/axe) to each AI to keep their strategic resources pillaged and their workers frightened and in their homes. I don't think we can spare this type of harassment while implementing an axe rush.

My opinion:

I actually think we might have a slightly easier time with the AIs if we attack with cataphants, primarily because we'd be willing to devote resources toward keeping the AI's strategic resources pillaged.

But I don't think it's going to be a major difference. Greek city-capture cash would probably fund much of the Construction research too.
 
No Chopping considered? And can we not use a couple of rivers to connect the Iron to London? If so that brings down the needed turns. That said, we're probably better off going with Axes & Chariots.

Also, we don't want to send our forces to Sparta first (aside from a pillager) because that will send the AI into emergency defence mode.

Alex built Great Wall in my test game, but seeing as we'll be pillaging his main mine, he might not do us any favours here. One final point is that we'll probably need to switch off research for a while once the assault team is underway because support costs will hurt a lot.
 
I think we clearly still need to go axes on alex. Without metal of his own, we can take him out, and greatly lessen AI pressure on us while teching to and building cats and jumbos. I think this is clearly the way to go.

After Alex dies, the more difficult question will depend on whether or not we've managed to keep Hannibal pillaged, and whether or not we should hit him with swords or wait for the better units.

My gut instinct in always war is to knock out AIs as fast as possible, so axes to Alex and swords to Hannibal is appealing to me.
 
Welcome back, sunrise! Let me know when you want to get back in the turnset rotation.

Re: Iron settler turn counting: Yes, I think we could get it connected a bit faster, but the quick numbers I put up give a sense of the kind of delay we're talking about to get swords.

All in all, it sounds like we're a go for an axe rush then. Unless anyone else wants to add some suggestions, I think you can go ahead and finish up your turns, Archduke.

I'd like to see a minimum of 10 axes (plus the one already down there) for the assault. A medic chariot would help heal troops who pick up some promotions by barb or AI raiders before then. It'd be nice to have a couple CRII axes to start things off.

We can talk tactics when we're ready to move out. For now, I'd recommend that the axe that's down there pillage the sheep, then move off for a while--maybe scout south?--so as not to trigger a defensive buildup.

I think I'd try to pillage Hannibal's horses, but that's a judgment call.

I highly recommend the Options setting of "Show enemy moves" so that we don't lose one of the warriors overlooking the AI capitals to a skirmisher or some other troop.
 
One thing that you might want to consider is leaving your units unpromoted when killing units in the wild. It is slightly risky but you can use the promotion to quickly heal the unit if it takes some damage.
 
Good point ruff. It's situational, of course. If it's more critical that the unit win, I promote first. If a better chance at a promotion is more important, I attack first with the lower odds. The faster heal is nice too, especially if the unit is likely to receive a counterattack since you can heal after you attack.

Looking forward to your report, Archduke.
 
The save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG006_BC0850_01.CivWarlordsSave

1240 BC

Our chariots kill the scout party of Alex as they move to the open field.
I take the risk of trying to pillage the horses near Carthage, but an archer denies us this, damn.

1180 BC

I plunder the sheep near Athens. A 3rd Chariot is finished by York, and I build another worker to get some chopping done to help with our army.

1120 BC

Our worker finishes the road and goes to mine a hill near London. Our axe goes to heal up outside Alex territory. Mathematics comes next after writing.

1060 BC

The copper has not been reconnected,

985 BC

Northlook is killed by a skirmisher I couldn´t evade. We are blind to Hannibal and Mansa now.:(

850 BC

I end my turnset, we got about 8 axes around London and York and 2 chariots ready to go down to Athens, which I would suggest. One chariot stays in York for the worst and both cities equipped with one worker each are building more axes. The next turnset should be about getting our troops down into striking position with perhaps 1-2 more axes, but we shouldn´t hesitate for too long.

The copper is still not reconnected as my axe was checking in every 2-3 turn. No worker has showed up so far.

I hope noone objects too much with my build of a 2nd worker, the chopping he will do should offset the delay he has brought on our axe production. Also I recommend building a library in London as soon as our army is off to support our economy a bit.
 

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Got it.

A pity we tried to pillage Hanny's horses; that was extremely naive.

Looked at the save and have the following comments:

London is at size 6 so I plan to 1 pop whip an axe, chop the forest hill into an axe then send the boys on their way. We don't have hunting, so no spears: let's hope our chariots can defend against any incoming chariots. York will switch to a chariot (which will catch up with the main stack easily enough).

I spy a barb warrior N of York; the chariot will deal with him. Coppersquat will swing by Athens (which has been whipped again) to see what its defences look like, and to see whether we can attack from the forest tile 1SE of Athens without crossing water penalty.

London will be stagnated for a bit following the whip, but I think we should research Hunting (4 turns) before reducing research during the long march to Athens: we won't complete Maths in time to boost the assault team, and it would be handy to have Spears against incoming chariots. A Library in London will be lined up at max hammers.

I can play this today, or Monday, and I'll wait for feedback before proceeding.
 
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