SGOTM 06 - Trash Team

[stuge]

My preference is to settle on the dyes, then we'd get extra commerce from the start. The two coastal squares are irrelevant. If this game lasts so long that we have to work them, we're doing something wrong. And it nets the capital extra food eventually, with calendar or CS.

1SW is good too. It'll make us very unlikely to get wiped out by some exploring AI warrior. (Happened to me in one test game.) Anyhow, we'll have to bag the eastern gold with the captital, because any other city working it would probably be buried in jungle. Also, the gold could get overgrown while we haven't got IW. And that would waste lots of early, probably critical, commerce.

 

[remconius]

I checked out people's positions in the previous posts on settling spot. With people allowed multiple votes this is the outcome:

In place: 4 votes
Dye: 4 votes
1 SE: 3 votes
1 SW: 2 votes

Given this outcome I propose we settle on the Dye, as it gives +1 commerce, brings the river gold mine in reach and can still be done in turn 0.

I'll allow some more time to counter this proposal while we formulate the rest of the plan for my turns.

I am worried that there is a better spot. The only way to find out is wander the settler (1NW, 1S) and the next turn move the warrior 1 SE or 1 SW. Or settling 1 SE which leaves more room to the West for another city.

Rest of the plan for turnset 1:
Build: Warrior (protection) > Worker > warrior > warrior
Science: Hunting > Archery > BW
Exploration: As safe as possible. small circle around the capital.

 

[remconius]

So please vote:
-Settle on Dye
-Wander settler for 1 turn and post screenie
-Settle 1 SE to leave room to west for gold/banana/seafood? city
-None of the above (state reasons and alternative plan)

 

[chopster]

I'm happy to settle on the dyes.

My only worry is with the initial research path identified, we'll be growing very slowly. Being prince and with a gold mine on line very early, we'll have a reasonably high happy cap in the capital, so I'd think maybe Agri or AH in the first three techs. This will also give the worker things to do, as we don't want idle worker turns.

I'm unfamiliar with timings on epic speed, as I've only ever played Normal with the exception of GOTMs etc.

 

[remconius]

We could do agriculture/AH early, but I think archers are needed soon to be safe.

 

[chopster]

I certainly don't disagree with that.

I guess we can beeline archery, and if the worker appears run out of things to do, then slide Agri in before Bronze?

 

[patagonia]

I also think we should be looking to get at least agriculture researched before bronze working, otherwise we'll have idle worker turns and a capital growing too slowly to work any of the mines that we build.

Assuming we settle on the dyes as outlined above, we'll want to get those riverside bananas farmed quickly before they get overgrown by jungle. That leaves us with one farm and two mines (on the gold and the hill 1S that could also fall victim to the jungle) to build while we get AH online for the cows.

Ordinarily I'd push for AH early since the cows are the strongest tile for us to work in the early game (the only 6 production one available to us), but if we're looking to chop/whip a settler to bag the other gold early on, they can wait a while.

The proposed build order for the first turnset sounds fine - warrior > worker should take about as long as hunting > archery so we'll be able to get going on our first archer as soon as the worker's done.

 

[cabert]

i'm convinced with th dye

 

[pigswill]

I'm ok with dye

 

[remconius]

Then the tech path is:

Hunting > Archery > Agriculture > BW > AH

I'll probably play tonight.

 

[chopster]

Big picture
I know it's early days, but have we given any thought to a victory condition?

I'm guessing domination or conquest are the easiest paths, given the always war setting, and surely the earliest achievable.

How many big and small maps have you guys played? I know it's very few for me. Are we likely to require Astronomy in order to achieve aour goals? If so, how do we plan for it? Self research, or a combination of research and lightbulbing? IF lightbulbing, what techs do we have to avoid researching in order to have the path open?

Exploration
What direction should we explore?
Should we take the warrior clockwise to the western gold hill, or anticlockwise (SE, NE, NE etc) to reveal more land and potentially more threats?

 

[remconius]

Summary:
-Founded London, built warrior and worker.
-Farmed Banana
-Met 3 opponents with nasty early unique units, who all have BW before us
-Drew first blood, killed one scout

Turn 0/660 (4000 BC)
Found London on Dye, start warrior working 1F/2H tile, no risks

Turn 1/660 (3970 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:17:30]
Cows and Fish to the south

Turn 2/660 (3940 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:17:58]

Turn 3/660 (3910 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:18:04]

Turn 4/660 (3880 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:18:08]

Turn 5/660 (3850 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:18:13]

Turn 6/660 (3820 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:18:19]

Turn 7/660 (3790 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:18:24]
Tech learned: Hunting
London's borders expand
London finishes: Warrior

Turn 8/660 (3760 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:18:41]
Research begun: Archery (11 Turns)
London begins: Worker (23 turns)
Change worked tile to river-banana

Turn 9/660 (3730 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:19:30]

Turn 10/660 (3700 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:19:37]
MM approaches from North, and Alex from the East.

Contact made: Malinese Empire
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
MM is Spi/Fin and has unique skirmisher (4 str Archer, with extra 1st strike)

Contact made: Greek Empire
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Alex is Phi/Agg, and has phalanx (5 str spear)

Turn 11/660 (3670 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:19:42]

Turn 12/660 (3640 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:19:58]

Turn 13/660 (3610 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:22:41]

Turn 14/660 (3580 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:22:47]
Contact made: Carthaginian Empire
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Hanny is Fin/Cha and has Numidian Cavalry (5 str HA with lots of bonusses)

Turn 15/660 (3550 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:22:52]

Turn 16/660 (3520 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:24:24]
Tech learned: Archery

Turn 17/660 (3490 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:24:31]
Research begun: Agriculture (11 Turns)
Turn 18/660 (3460 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:25:48]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 19/660 (3430 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:25:53]

Turn 20/660 (3400 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:26:06]

Turn 21/660 (3370 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:26:56]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 22/660 (3340 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:27:09]

Turn 23/660 (3310 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:27:21]
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 24/660 (3280 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:27:30]

Turn 25/660 (3250 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:27:36]
FIRST BLOOD!
While attacking in the wild, Warrior defeats (1.16/2): Malinese Scout (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 26/660 (3220 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:27:58]
Warrior promoted: Woodsman I

Turn 27/660 (3190 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:28:14]
Tech learned: Agriculture

Turn 28/660 (3160 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:28:20]
Research begun: Bronze Working (18 Turns)
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 29/660 (3130 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:28:39]
London finishes: Worker
Decide to farm the banana before mining the gold.

Spot Mali borders to the East.

Turn 30/660 (3100 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:29:21]
London begins: Archer (37 turns)

Turn 31/660 (3070 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:30:07]
Civics Change: Hannibal(Carthage) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 32/660 (3040 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:30:31]

Turn 33/660 (3010 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:30:58]

Turn 34/660 (2980 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:31:07]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 35/660 (2950 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:31:15]

Turn 36/660 (2920 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:31:31]

Turn 37/660 (2890 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:31:39]
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 38/660 (2860 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:31:50]
A Farm was built near London
London grows: 2
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 39/660 (2830 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:32:14]
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 40/660 (2800 BC) [16-Dec-2007 21:32:52]

Spoiler look what the cultural overlay shows! :

Any ideas on the purple dude(tte)?

MM is at 13 tiles to the East from counting. Alex arrived on turn 10 with a scout, so he is about 20 tiles away. Hanny arrived on turn 15, so he could be at 30 tiles.

Interestingly:
We are currently at 1.48% of world's land, owning 18 tiles. That means the world consists of ~1216 tiles and we need ~778 tiles (~37 cities) if we were to go for domination.
MM only owns 1% which is 12 tiles, thus he must be on the coast. And if he is the biggest contender, the others must also be on the coast.

One more point. It seems we can use the land to the south to close off the perimeter. If we place 5 cities (or defenders) close together in the mountains with walls and archers, nobody can get through except from the north.

 

[remconius]

THE SAVE

just realized I first said the first turnset would be 30 turns... Oh well nothing much happened anyway.

Roster
-Remconius (just played 40 turns)
-chopster (UP for 30 turns)
-cabert (on deck for 20 turns)
-patagonia
-stuge
-pigswill
-Cam_H

Note for the next player:
-There is no rush, so take your time to discuss a plan with the team.
-When london grew to 2, I assigned the gold mine as well, but I think it's better to work the lake or cows until the Gold mine is done.
-We probably need another archer before we build a settler.

Started adding an index to turnset report in post 3

 

[chopster]

Nice early turn set.

So, BW is 6 turns away. This is good, as we'll know the location of any nearby copper before having to decide where to place our next city.

With our neighbours having early UUs, perhaps a defensive initial position is a good idea.

I can't say I really like our lands.

That cultural borders map is interesting.
If we were to build a "culture bridge" from the cow island, we might be able to reach other land masses without Astronomy.

Any ideas on city placements?
I'll try and have a go at a dot map, but I'm far from an expert on the matter.

Note for the next player:
-There is no rush, so take your time to discuss a plan with the team. Definitely
-When london grew to 2, I assigned the gold mine as well, but I think it's better to work the lake or cows until the Gold mine is done. Even a grass forest maybe?
-We probably need another archer before we build a settler. I'd say definitely - I sure wouldn't be moving our valuable settler out to die in my first SGOTM!

 

[chopster]

Actually, so much can potentially change after the discover of BW, and there's little that will be any different until that point, I may try to play tonight up until that point, and then we can discuss city placements, and the way forward from there.

 

[patagonia]

Good work on the secure opening.

I'm not sure if Gyathaar will have been kind enough to give us easy access to metals, but the choice of neighbours is certainly interesting, given that we'll be facing both anti-melee and anit-mounted UUs. It's almost as if we're being pushed towards a Feudalism sling to give us a unit that will stand up to all of those.

Interesting to see some Viking culture splashed on the overlay too.

Looking at the lay of the land, I'd be inclined to go cautious and settle York 1NW of the cows to pick up the second gold and rice. It won't be a great location long-term (it'll max out at size 14 if it borrows the cows from London once we've got Calendar to plantation both bananas), but it's easy to defend and will provide a decent amount of hammers and commerce this early in the game (thanks to London's next border pop, it'll be able to stagnate at size 5 working rice, gold, a farm 1N of the cows and two other mines for 11HPT without needing any culture of its own).

There are better long-term city sites out east, but they'll take a lot more time to develop making them more of a gamble while we're small and vulnerable.

 

[chopster]

As you say, the Feudalism slingshot seems even more preferable now we know who we're facing locally.

 

[Cam_H]

Actually, so much can potentially change after the discover of BW, and there's little that will be any different until that point, I may try to play tonight up until that point, and then we can discuss city placements, and the way forward from there.

Yes - I agree. Let's see where the Copper is (if anywhere) before getting ahead of ourselves too much.

Good thoughts so far guys!

 

[chopster]

OK, got it.

I've opened the save, and here is my plan for the next few turns:

Pre play: I've moved the second citizen so we are working the lake (2f,2c) and the farmed bananas as suggested. This gives growth to size 3 in 8 turns, and BW in 4 turns. The gold mine is still 6 turns away. The Archer says 25 turns to completion, but this is more like 11 turns once the gold mine is on line and being worked.

Initial play: Next 4 turns will play themselves - the worker will continue to mine the gold, and I'll tech from BW-AH. Then I'll post a screenshot for further discussion about settling locations.

EDIT: How does one enable the "flying camera" I see in other's screenshots?

 

[chopster]

Ok, so I played those four turns.
WE'VE GOT COPPER!!!

This won't affect our decisions of where to settle the other cities however, as it is 1S of our capital.

Also, how do I get the autolog to list dates for the events?
This is all I get:

Spoiler :

Research begun: Bronze Working (5 Turns)
Buddhism founded in a distant land
Tech learned: Bronze Working
While defending in the wild near London, Warrior defeats (1.72/2): Barbarian Panther (Prob Victory: 99.2%)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (11 Turns)

See attached screenshot for the lay of the land: