SGOTM 06 - Trash Team

[remconius]

There lies the glorious Timbuktu!

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust....

And the rest is less important

FULL REPORT

Remconius: changed corinth to monument for happiness, and some unit orders to axes
Remconius: Thought I could send one worker unguarded, oops, he got captured
Turn 305/660 (1490 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:14:42]
War Elephant promoted: Shock
War Elephant promoted: Combat III
Swordsman promoted: Combat I
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, War Elephant defeats (1.20/8): Carthaginian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 88.4%)

London finishes: War Elephant
Nottingham finishes: War Elephant
Argos finishes: Forge
A Town was built near Athens

Turn 306/660 (1496 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:19:53]
London begins: War Elephant (7 turns)
Nottingham begins: War Elephant (9 turns)
Argos begins: Catapult (3 turns)
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
War Elephant promoted: Combat II
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, War Elephant defeats (2.80/8): Malinese Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
Nottingham begins: Longbowman (7 turns)
London begins: Catapult (5 turns)
York finishes: War Elephant
Civics Change: Ragnar(Vikings) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'

Turn 307/660 (1502 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:35:01]
York begins: Longbowman (5 turns)
While attacking in English territory near Rhodes, Catapult defeats (5.00/5): Malinese Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
Longbowman promoted: Drill II
Hadrumetum grows: 4
Athens finishes: Axeman
While defending in Greek territory at Rhodes, Longbowman loses to: Malinese Horse Archer (4.98/6) (Prob Victory: 3.6%)

Turn 308/660 (1508 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:38:54]
Athens begins: Axeman (4 turns)
War Elephant promoted: Shock
Carthage begins: Longbowman (75 turns)
Tech learned: Machinery
Corinth finishes: Monument
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'

Turn 309/660 (1514 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:40:48]
Research begun: Engineering (28 Turns)
A Pasture was built near Hadrumetum
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
War Elephant promoted: Combat II
London grows: 8
London finishes: Catapult
Argos finishes: Catapult

Turn 310/660 (1520 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:43:37]
London begins: Maceman (5 turns)
Argos begins: Maceman (7 turns)
While attacking in Malinese territory near Gao, War Elephant defeats (7.12/8): Malinese Catapult (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Mycenae finishes: Catapult

Turn 311/660 (1523 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:46:17]
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
A Camp was built near Corinth
York finishes: Longbowman

Turn 312/660 (1526 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:48:20]
York begins: Maceman (7 turns)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Nottingham finishes: Longbowman
Mycenae finishes: Catapult
While defending in Greek territory at Rhodes, Axeman loses to: Greek Longbowman (0.60/6) (Prob Victory: 21.7%)

Turn 313/660 (1529 AD) [02-Feb-2008 21:51:19]
Nottingham begins: Catapult (6 turns)
Mycenae begins: Maceman (12 turns)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Catapult loses to: Malinese Longbowman (4.56/6) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman defeats (3.60/6): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 68.1%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman defeats (3.48/6): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 43.6%)
Remconius: phew lucky@
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman loses to: Malinese Musketman (3.69/9) (Prob Victory: 87.4%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Malinese Musketman (Prob Victory: 96.9%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman defeats (4.86/6): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Judaism has spread: Djenne
Hinduism has spread: Djenne
Captured Djenne (Mansa Musa)
Djenne begins: Barracks (75 turns)
Remconius: spices, dye
Remconius: djenne is a keeper
Remconius: oops, now cash is really messed up
Remconius: Assign some merchants to reduce problem...
Mycenae begins: Catapult (10 turns)
A Mine was built near Mycenae
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison II
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison III
Nottingham finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Ragnar(Vikings), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 314/660 (1532 AD) [02-Feb-2008 23:07:33]
Nottingham begins: Catapult (6 turns)
Swordsman promoted: Cover
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
Swordsman promoted: Combat II
War Elephant promoted: Combat III
London finishes: Maceman
York grows: 8
Mycenae's borders expand
Athens finishes: Maceman
While defending in the wild at Djenne, War Elephant loses to: Malinese Trebuchet (1.36/4) (Prob Victory: 74.9%)

Turn 315/660 (1535 AD) [02-Feb-2008 23:10:38]
London begins: Maceman (5 turns)
Athens begins: Catapult (9 turns)
While attacking in English territory at Djenne, War Elephant defeats (2.88/8): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 85.0%)
While attacking in English territory at Djenne, War Elephant defeats (7.36/8): Malinese Trebuchet (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison II
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison III
While defending in the wild at Djenne, War Elephant loses to: Malinese Musketman (5.58/9) (Prob Victory: 35.3%)

Turn 316/660 (1538 AD) [02-Feb-2008 23:14:36]
War Elephant promoted: Combat II
While attacking in English territory at Djenne, War Elephant defeats (6.56/8): Malinese Musketman (Prob Victory: 95.6%)
Hadrumetum finishes: Maceman
Argos finishes: Maceman
Nichola Tesla (Great Engineer) born in Athens
A Village was built near Carthage

Turn 317/660 (1541 AD) [02-Feb-2008 23:20:32]
Hadrumetum begins: Catapult (6 turns)
Argos begins: Maceman (9 turns)
Tech learned: Engineering
Research begun: Guilds (33 Turns)
Remconius: engineering bulbed, guilds next for gunpowder
Argos begins: Trebuchet (10 turns)
Hadrumetum begins: Trebuchet (12 turns)
York finishes: Maceman
Carthage's borders expand
A Hamlet was built near Carthage

Turn 318/660 (1544 AD) [03-Feb-2008 13:01:40]
York begins: Trebuchet (8 turns)
Djenne begins: Longbowman (75 turns)
Mycenae finishes: Catapult
While defending in the wild near Gao, Maceman loses to: Malinese Musketman (0.45/9) (Prob Victory: 32.9%)
A Cottage was built near Carthage

Turn 319/660 (1547 AD) [03-Feb-2008 13:06:11]
Mycenae begins: Trebuchet (15 turns)
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Malinese Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, War Elephant defeats (6.96/8): Malinese Trebuchet (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
Catapult promoted: Drill I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
While attacking in English territory at Djenne, Catapult defeats (5.00/5): Malinese Musketman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Athens begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
London finishes: Maceman
Nottingham finishes: Catapult
Athens grows: 7
Djenne's borders expand
A Cottage was destroyed near Carthage
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Ragnar(Vikings), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 320/660 (1550 AD) [03-Feb-2008 13:11:32]
London begins: Maceman (5 turns)
Nottingham begins: Maceman (10 turns)
War Elephant promoted: Charge
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, War Elephant defeats (6.96/8): Malinese Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
Leonidas (Great General) born in London
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, War Elephant defeats (3.36/8): Malinese Catapult (Prob Victory: 92.7%)
Catapult promoted: Combat I
Catapult promoted: Combat II
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, Catapult defeats (2.60/5): Malinese Trebuchet (Prob Victory: 90.1%)
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Maceman promoted: City Raider III
Athens finishes: Catapult

Turn 321/660 (1553 AD) [03-Feb-2008 13:15:34]
War Elephant promoted: Medic I
Athens begins: Trireme (5 turns)
Corinth finishes: Courthouse

Turn 322/660 (1556 AD) [03-Feb-2008 13:17:54]
Corinth begins: Forge (14 turns)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
Axeman promoted: Combat I
Axeman promoted: Shock
Axeman promoted: Cover
A Camp was built near Hadrumetum
A Plantation was destroyed near Carthage
Civics Change: Hannibal(Carthage) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Decentralization'
Civics Change: Hannibal(Carthage) from 'Theocracy' to 'Pacifism'

Turn 323/660 (1559 AD) [03-Feb-2008 13:19:58]
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Longbowman (6.00/6) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Longbowman (5.28/6) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Longbowman (3.72/6) (Prob Victory: 1.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Maceman loses to: Malinese Longbowman (0.36/6) (Prob Victory: 87.9%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman defeats (4.86/6): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 82.3%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Longbowman (3.48/6) (Prob Victory: 6.9%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman loses to: Malinese Longbowman (2.58/6) (Prob Victory: 71.2%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Longbowman (2.64/6) (Prob Victory: 12.2%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 94.7%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (1.92/8): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 96.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman defeats (3.48/6): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 86.5%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Judaism has spread: Timbuktu
Hinduism has spread: Timbuktu
Captured Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)
Razed Timbuktu
Timbuktu lost
Maceman promoted: Combat I
Maceman promoted: Combat II
Maceman promoted: Combat III
York begins: Forge (12 turns)
Carthage begins: Courthouse (36 turns)
Djenne begins: Courthouse (36 turns)

Roster
- Remconius
- chopster (UP)
- stuge (on deck)
- cabert
- patagonia
- pigswill
- Cam_H

A few notes for the next player:
-If we can deploy fishing nets near athens, we can hire a bunch of merchants for our economy. We either need trireme or to kill off alex for this.
-Our SoD should move (after healing) to wipe MM's big cities before mopping up Alex and Hanny.

THE SAVE

 

[cabert]

Are we looking up or what ?


Now back to the question dom or conquest...
I guess it's all about what we can find in the SW.

 

[pigswill]

We seem to have been taking a major city a set for the past few sets.

Fishing nets? hmm. At least caravels can't pillage (though they can block). Not sure on that one.

Maybe inland cottages once we've got a bit more of the continent.

At least it feels we're moving forwards rather than staving off defeat so I guess that's progress!

 

[patagonia]

I's worth cottaging one or two cities for commerce, but I'd be inclined to farm elsewhere. We're already in caste/representation so that gets us a useful economy much sooner and will set us up nicely to draft stacks of rifles later in the game.

 

[pigswill]

Sounds good to me. I've had very little experience of SE but it does seem a good fit for always war.

 

[chopster]

Wow, I only hope I can live up to the last couple of turnsets!
At work, so no "got it" from me yet.
I'll grab it tonight (or tomorrow as tonight looks busy), and hopefully post some thoughts with a view to playing in the next couple days.

Timbuktu looks to be a nice place to re-settle at a later date - plenty of food and some nice matured cottages.

 

[remconius]

Dont worry chopster, Reinforcements in the form of Maces and Trebuchets are heading for the frontline. You should be able to finish off MM without big problems.

 

[chopster]

Ok, this is an official "got it".

Initial thoughts/questions:

We have a Great General currently sitting in York - where should we use him?

We have a medic 3 unit, so at this point I'm inclined to settle him in Argos - to give us a second city than can produce 3 promotion units. Argos is not producing quite as many hammers as York at this point, but if we were to sack one merchant and work 2 forest plains instead of one forest grass, we can make the same 16HPT as York.

Newly captured cities: Carthage and Djenne are currently feeding 3 unhappy buggers each. Should we consider running 100% specialists in each of these cities for a few turns to starve down the foreign population and reduce "we yearn to join the motherland" unhappiness, while giving us a cash/science injection? This may turn them in to more productive cities sooner. Also, if we adopt this practice, the only reason NOT to keep a city would be if we thought we couldn't defend it. What are the team thoughts on this practice?

City Attack: What sort of stacks have been guarding MM's cities?
From the looks 3 LBs and a Musket at Djenne, and 5LBs at Timbuktu. What sort of stacks are required to take these cities? By the rough looks, about 4-6 catapults to bombard and suicide, and 8ish attacking units. Does this sound about right? What order for cities - I was thinking after healing in Djenne to go Gao - KS - Walata - but I guess this is well beyond the stretch of my turnset.

Plans for this set:
Athens: Trireme - WB - merchants.
Assemble the stack in Djenne and move on Gao.
Continue with the road connections.

Please add your thoughts.

 

[cabert]

newly captured cities : running a few (as many as happy citizens) artists would have the following effect
1) get the border pops we need = less cities needed if we go for domination
2) give the city some of our culture = make them less longing for their former owner
3) starve them away if they don' want to work
4) give us some science
I'd run all artists except for mines that are even more useful ...

I wouldn't build triremes for now, nor would I build a WB before Alex is removed.

 

[remconius]

My plan was to settle GG in York, just forgot to mention it.

I say NO more cities at this moment, unless they have wonders that benefit us.

-> Every additional city will have a huge maintenance cost accross all cities +15-25 gpt.
->If we need Astronomy we need dont need more maintenance to get any kind of science rate going.
->If we go for conquest we dont need those cities anyway.
->If we go for domination we can spam settlers right at the end.

 

[pigswill]

Or we could run mainly merchants, maybe one or two artists for initial border pop. If we're aiming on annihilating AI civs (and I guess we are) then yearning and culture fights are non-problems once the civ is dead.

 

[chopster]

Any more thoughts?

Artists vs Merchants?
Starving the unhappy pop?
Fishing in Athens - rem says yes, cabert says no anyone else want to weigh in?

I'd really like some more discussion on a couple of things before I play - this one in particular:

We have a Great General currently sitting in York - where should we use him?
We have a medic 3 unit, so at this point I'm inclined to settle him in Argos - to give us a second city than can produce 3 promotion units. Argos is not producing quite as many hammers as York at this point, but if we were to sack one merchant and work 2 forest plains instead of one forest grass, we can make the same 16HPT as York.

Argos vs York.

Hammers are the same, or will be after a minor adjustment.
With a barracks and Vassalage, units will get 5XP, with 1 GG it's 7XP, with 2 GGs it's 9XP. As we are Charismatic, we only need 8XP for 3 promotions, SO - are we better off producing 2 lots of 7XP units which both need 1XP for a promotion, or 1 lot of 5XP units (2 promotion) and one lot of 9XP (3 promotion) units?

I personally feel at the moment our units fall in to 2 categories - sacrifical cats/trebs, and "city takers". IMHO we'd be better off over promoting the attackers and under promoting the "sacrificial lambs". This would suggest Argos as the location for the GG.

At this stage I'm looking for someone to poke a proper hole in this argument to sway me to settle him elsewhere.

I might end up delaying this turn set a little longer than the norm, but I want us to all be in agreeance on the direction this set takes, as it can change a few things for us quite a bit.

 

[pigswill]

Not sure about razing vs multiple specialists. Are we really paying +15gpt for each city we add?

I disagree with triremes/workboats atm.

I like the idea of 9xp units. I play slightly different to some people in that I value and nurture seige so I'd rather have CR3 trebs than CR3 maces; same basic strength vs cities with collateral on top.

 

[remconius]

Every city we caputure has 6-7gpt maintenance itsself and then it adds around gpt to every city (less if they have courthouse) That is 10+ gpt easily and the last city i captured I went from -15 to -29 IIRC.

Good idea to starve some unhappy pop, unless there is another way to make them happy. Djenne is coming online with some happy resources. I'd prefer merchants over artists personally. We dont culture but the cash/science combo is really nice.

I dont mind waiting with fishing Athens until Alex is gone. He should be first on the "mop-up hitlist"

 

[patagonia]

In terms of the GG, we'd be best off settling him to get 1 lot of 5XP units and 1 lot of 9XP units. Throw in a stable later on and you'll see why that's better than 2 lots of 7XP for a Chr leader like Churchill.

 

[remconius]

London is already doing 9 xp units, right?
All other cities 5xp? so we could get 1 9xp, 1 7xp, rest 5xp cities...?

 

[chopster]

Argos already has 1 GG from Alex settled there.

 

[remconius]

So then it is

I - 2 x 9xp, rest 5xp
II - 1 x 9xp, 2 x 7xp, rest 5xp

My preference goes to option II. 7xps need 1 succesful attack to have 3 promotions.

 

[remconius]

chopster, go ahead and play your turn set, its been a few days.

Basically finish MM and then go into mop up mode.

 

[chopster]

Will play this weekend some time, probably within the next 24 hours.