SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[Gosha190]

Thanks . Btw what happened with the CRC game?

Nothing!
We did not put enough attention to ours game and played it as is

Ours way is more suitable for emperor level than for prince. We got CS by Oracle, too late astro.. and we did not use hummer-gold transfer. As a result we'v got a lot new laurel owners to beat them next time.

 

[TDK]

Congrats X-team. Nice game, similar to ours at OSS.

Edit: I like CRC in 4th place, last game they took bronze from us by 1 turn, and that I didn't like.

TDK

 

[ShannonCT]

Very good game, but seems you were somewhat slow in your final war.

Only a little slow: 32 turns from getting Astronomy to getting victory. Same as Murky Waters and only 2 turns slower than OSS and CRC. We would have had to be 6 turns faster to tie OSS for the silver. You're welcome to download our pre-Astronomy save and see if it's possible.

 

[Gosha190]

Edit: I like CRC in 4th place

we do not loose all chances to be at 5-th place

 

[Mistfit]

Well done leif and well done team . First laurel ever for the XTeam I believe.

Good job guys!

I helped with a couple of spoons but I do not think they count

 

[DJMGator13]

Well done leif and well done team . First laurel ever for the XTeam I believe.

First one in Civ4 version. You have to go back to Civ III days for the other Xteam laurel's:

SG06 - 100K culture game Gyaathar lead the team to first place

SG03 - NOW War game (although Mistfit & I were on a team that won the spoon for this one).

 

[rrau]

Reading in the other teams threads, there's 4 things that seem to have really helped us: (I haven't ready Murky's thread yet....dreading to because of the post count and CRC's was very sparce)

1. Settling on the Dyes - Had copper in fat cross and didn't need to road it

2. Axe rush on Mali.

3. Axes to slow down AI development on our continent----I think this was very important

4. chopping forests for gold.

 

[ShannonCT]

1. Settling on the Dyes - Had copper in fat cross and didn't need to road it.

Getting connected copper in the FC was a bit of luck, but it reminds us to always think about where the most probable locations are for copper or horses, and to seriously consider teching first to BW or AH.

2. Axe rush on Mali.

Rushing the nearest AI capital is almost always a winning move. In Always War, it's a no-brainer.

4. chopping forests for gold.

Unfortunately, this trick only works really well with Protective civs. There are other traits that give a 100% bonus for certain buildings where it would also work, but Protective is the only trait where one can get a 200% bonus for a building. I'm guessing we wont be playing a Protective Civ again in a SGOTM for a long while.


I would pinpoint a few things that kept us from getting the gold:

1. Not building Pyramids. After we captured Athens and researched Masonry, we could have used the forests around Athens to chop the Mids. This would have likely allowed us to tech faster than chopping the forests for gold. With all of the scientists we ran in Athens, Carthage, and Timbuktu, Representation would have been really useful. And after we got Astronomy, Police State would have given us a significant boost in unit production. I can't remember anyone arguing for the Pyramids, but I think was the key decision that let MW and OSS beat us to Astronomy.

2. Initial delay in capturing Carthage. Nothing CP could have done about this. I think he made the right choice in attacking when he did. He had a high chance of winning and delaying could have meant Carthage whipping more units. If we had captured Carthage earlier, we would have gotten our GSs sooner and could have gone into pure teching mode sooner.

3. Troop movements against last 3 AI. It took us 32 turns from getting Astro to getting victory. This isn't bad but we could have shaved several turns off of that number, by making fewer mistakes and by using galleons better. I think we would have been better off if we had gone ahead with the galleon chain in the eastern ocean. There were a lot of AI cities that could be reached faster from the eastern ocean, and units from Carthage and Tim took too long getting to the front.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

We have played extremely well as a team if our only tactical errors were not building the Pyramids and losing a few turns in intercontinental troops movements!

Some little micromanagement errors and bad fortune (every team gets this one way or the other) slipped us a few turns further back aswell. There's not too much you can do to stop these things though.

And I'm not sure I would want it any other way. If everyone else played the perfect game I would probably lose sleep as my turnset approached and the pressure mounted (not to mention the excessive number of hakas that would be required before every combat action)!

It's interesting how the little mistakes seem to add up... a few troops moves here, a few lost turns of research there, and you end up missing out on the bigger prizes; such as building a world wonder or getting your forces to the AI before they can build defenders.

 

[leif erikson]

1. Not building Pyramids. After we captured Athens and researched Masonry, we could have used the forests around Athens to chop the Mids. This would have likely allowed us to tech faster than chopping the forests for gold. With all of the scientists we ran in Athens, Carthage, and Timbuktu, Representation would have been really useful. And after we got Astronomy, Police State would have given us a significant boost in unit production. I can't remember anyone arguing for the Pyramids, but I think was the key decision that let MW and OSS beat us to Astronomy.

This seems to be a key in their getting to Astronomy before we did. Murky also by passed Construction until quite late. We spent 8 turns researching it before the techs needed for Astronomy. We also bulbed Philosophy and revolted to Pacifism to speed the emergence of Great Scientists.

2. Initial delay in capturing Carthage. Nothing CP could have done about this. I think he made the right choice in attacking when he did. He had a high chance of winning and delaying could have meant Carthage whipping more units. If we had captured Carthage earlier, we would have gotten our GSs sooner and could have gone into pure teching mode sooner.

Our good old friend, the RNG. I sometimes have trouble remembering when it is kind, but I never forget when it isn't...

3. Troop movements against last 3 AI. It took us 32 turns from getting Astro to getting victory. This isn't bad but we could have shaved several turns off of that number, by making fewer mistakes and by using galleons better. I think we would have been better off if we had gone ahead with the galleon chain in the eastern ocean. There were a lot of AI cities that could be reached faster from the eastern ocean, and units from Carthage and Tim took too long getting to the front.

Perhaps working off the eastern side with a Galleon chain would have helped. It would be interesting to replay and see if we could have done much better. I think that we were shooting in the dark during this time because we didn't really know what was where. Had we known of the inland sea near Persepolis, we could have built a city to allow Galleons passage into the heart of Persia.

The key was what we discussed all along, the time to get to Astronomy. I am preparing a spreadsheet, by turn, of the significant events of Murky's, OSS' and our games. Hope to have it done in a day or two. It is an interesting exercise.

@rrau - In the third post in Murky's thread, Erkon has provided a very nice index that can help you review their thread fairly quickly. I really should do that with ours as well for the next game. I think it needs to be done on the fly. I think it would also serve to help us find things that were important in our own thread as we progress and need to check back. Something we should discuss I think.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Out of the other two medalists, it seems our strategy on the starting continent was most similar to Murky Waters (early axe, gold chop etc).

It would be interesting to compare milestone dates such as:

Timbuktu captured
Iron connected
Athens captured
Carthage captured
Oracle built
Pyramids built

This may help show when they started to get the clear lead they had on the bunch.

Edit: I think their Timbuktu was Hindu holy city and Athens became the holy city for Confu.. this would have helped us out a bit.

 

[leif erikson]

We have played extremely well as a team if our only tactical errors were not building the Pyramids and losing a few turns in intercontinental troops movements!

I think this is the key and what we should work to build on.

crossed with JT.

It would be interesting to compare milestone dates such as:

working on it now...

 

[Mad Professor]

The world goes too slow sometimes and too fats others. I was hanging out for results, dying of suspense then had to go away ofr a couple of days. One hour after I last post, JT, posts his results then Lief plays soon after after, and when I get back it's all over.

Anyhow - well done guys! The bronze laurels will look good in the X-Team clubrooms, I'm sure...

 

[Cactus Pete]

We have played extremely well as a team if our only tactical errors were not building the Pyramids and losing a few turns in intercontinental troops movements! Agree with that. My memory is vague. Were our workers tied up with seemingly vital matters when the time to build the Pyramids came?

Do I understand that we were the only team to "bulb Philosophy and revolted to Pacifism to speed the emergence of Great Scientists?" If so, perhaps everyone else made a tactical error. BTW, how many of the other fast finishers got the Oracle, and, if they did, what tech did they take?


Some little micromanagement errors and bad fortune (every team gets this one way or the other) slipped us a few turns further back aswell. There's not too much you can do to stop these things though. And I'm not sure I would want it any other way. If everyone else played the perfect game I would probably lose sleep as my turnset approached and the pressure mounted (not to mention the excessive number of hakas that would be required before every combat action)! There's a trade off here -- avoiding sleep deprivation and haka inflation vs. It's interesting how the little mistakes seem to add up... a few troops moves here, a few lost turns of research there, and you end up missing out on the bigger prizes; such as building a world wonder or getting your forces to the AI before they can build defenders.

A significant challenge inherent in SGOTMs is to create a team culture that encourages and facilitates a high standard of play without spoiling the fun. We can do better, of course, but there was dramatic progress made this game -- no little thanks to our new team members.

 

[Mad Professor]

A significant challenge inherent in SGOTMs is to create a team culture that encourages and facilitates a high standard of play without spoiling the fun. We can do better, of course, but there was dramatic progress made this game -- no little thanks to our new team members.

Yes, I noticed reading the thread this time that there was quite a deal of emphasis on little details that really make a difference. This is a weakness in my own game. I can win most emperor games I start (GOTM27 being a woeful but fun exception) but winning them more quickly needs that extra attention to such things and winning them quickly is a major part of getting laurels in SGOTM's! (Just to state the obvious huh? ) I enjoyed watching. Would have enjoyed playing more, but that's what you get when you don't have Warlords right? And I don't have BtS either...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Were our workers tied up with seemingly vital matters when the time to build the Pyramids came?

We could probably have chopped the Pyramids instead of the first gold chop in Athens. Shouldn't be tto difficult to calculate the difference in beakers between these two approaches.

Do I understand that we were the only team to "bulb Philosophy and revolted to Pacifism to speed the emergence of Great Scientists?" If so, perhaps everyone else made a tactical error.

I think so. Some teams (Smurkz, Gypsy Kings) haven't even used caste System. Gypsy Kings didn't need to because they popped Astronomy from a hut .

BTW, how many of the other fast finishers got the Oracle, and, if they did, what tech did they take?

Both MW and OSS built the Oracle. MW took CoL and OSS took Machinery. OSS didn't know about the gold chop.

A significant challenge inherent in SGOTMs is to create a team culture that encourages and facilitates a high standard of play without spoiling the fun. We can do better, of course, but there was dramatic progress made this game -- no little thanks to our new team members.

Our planning was much more thorough than in previous SGOTMS and JT and ShannonCT bot provided crucial information and ideas that we would have missed otherwise.

Regarding our speed of conquest measured as time from Astronomy to victory we did OK. OSS and CRC were 2 turns faster and MW used the same number of turns. We could probably have shaved a couple of turns off by whipping faster in the beginning. Maybe we also needed more galleons earlier to set up more chains.

I think it's difficult to point at one particular thing as decisive - after all we were only 14 turns slower than MW. Wasting the odd turn means a lot and for an average turn set of 20 turns wasting 1.5 turns per set would have resulted in a difference of 15 turns over 200 turns. So even the best strategy can fail if the implementation is sloppy.

 

[Erkon]

Out of the other two medalists, it seems our strategy on the starting continent was most similar to Murky Waters (early axe, gold chop etc).

It would be interesting to compare milestone dates such as:

Timbuktu captured
Iron connected
Athens captured
Carthage captured
Oracle built
Pyramids built

This may help show when they started to get the clear lead they had on the bunch.

Edit: I think their Timbuktu was Hindu holy city and Athens became the holy city for Confu.. this would have helped us out a bit.

Iron was not really on the critical line, but that's in our game. What is more important are the dates for certain key techs, such as:

• Mathematics
• Calendar
• Astronomy

Perhaps add CoL for those who ran Caste.

Also of interest is the turn for certain civic changes (if applicable) such as

• Slavery
• Caste
• Representation

If you can squeeze in these metrics, I think we can have a better comparison

 

[LowtherCastle]

and captured Athens, Timbuktu, and Carthage

 

[Frederiksberg]

1. Not building Pyramids. After we captured Athens and researched Masonry, we could have used the forests around Athens to chop the Mids. This would have likely allowed us to tech faster than chopping the forests for gold. With all of the scientists we ran in Athens, Carthage, and Timbuktu, Representation would have been really useful. And after we got Astronomy, Police State would have given us a significant boost in unit production. I can't remember anyone arguing for the Pyramids, but I think was the key decision that let MW and OSS beat us to Astronomy.

Putting some numbers on this:

Chopping Pyramids in Athens would require 338 hammers which is the equivalent of around 1000 gold = 1000 beakers lost.

Let's say we were running on average 20 scientists for 30 turns. With Representation the excess beakers would be 3*20*30 = 1800 beakers. So building the Pyramids would have yielded around 800 surplus beakers thus cutting down the research time with 5-6 turns. I seem to remember that we got Machinery 4-5 turns after we could have had our last GS so the effect of building Pyramids is in that neighbourhood. On top of that comes the production bonus for units but when you subtract turns lost in revolt (to Rep. and later to Police State) I doubt there would be a substantial gain. In conclusion, Pyramids can only explain 30-40% of the turns lost compared to MW.

Another thing that could have saved us some time was postponing Construction like MW did. That would have shaved another 4-5 turns off the Astro date. I think we realized too late that we didn't need maces for our final war. With that knowledge we would have been less reluctant to postpone Construction because we could build swords instead of cats in preparation for the war.

 

[leif erikson]

Iron was not really on the critical line, but that's in our game. What is more important are the dates for certain key techs, such as:

• Mathematics
• Calendar
• Astronomy

Perhaps add CoL for those who ran Caste.

Also of interest is the turn for certain civic changes (if applicable) such as

• Slavery
• Caste
• Representation

If you can squeeze in these metrics, I think we can have a better comparison

and captured Athens, Timbuktu, and Carthage

Yes, that is exactly what I am working on. If it is written in the turn logs of the threads, I intend to capture it. It will be laid out in an XL spreadsheet.

It is taking a bit longer than I thought, but it is coming by mid to late week, as long as my wife doesn't find something else for me to do!

Putting some numbers on this:

Chopping Pyramids in Athens would require 338 hammers which is the equivalent of around 1000 gold = 1000 beakers lost.

Let's say we were running on average 20 scientists for 30 turns. With Representation the excess beakers would be 3*20*30 = 1800 beakers. So building the Pyramids would have yielded around 800 surplus beakers thus cutting down the research time with 5-6 turns. I seem to remember that we got Machinery 4-5 turns after we could have had our last GS so the effect of building Pyramids is in that neighbourhood. On top of that comes the production bonus for units but when you subtract turns lost in revolt (to Rep. and later to Police State) I doubt there would be a substantial gain. In conclusion, Pyramids can only explain 30-40% of the turns lost compared to MW.

Another thing that could have saved us some time was postponing Construction like MW did. That would have shaved another 4-5 turns off the Astro date. I think we realized too late that we didn't need maces for our final war. With that knowledge we would have been less reluctant to postpone Construction because we could build swords instead of cats in preparation for the war.

Fred. Good analysis.

I hope this spreadsheet can help us some, once it is finished...