SGOTM 07 - Chokonuts

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 7 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The team lists are at the end of this post.

The Game
You are Qin Shi Huang, the great Chinese leader. You find yourself on a tiny world, surrounded by all the other vanilla civs. You can only build or own a single city, and the difficulty level is .... Deity!

The Objective
This Deity OCC game is on a Tiny map, at Normal speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, and using the latest vanilla HOF Mod.

Windows players need the HOF Mod at: HOF-1.74.002.
Windows players who have not installed BtS 3.13 will need to swap their vanilla CvGameCoreDLL.dll file so that their Civ4 installation is compatible with copies that have the BtS installation. Download the new DLL zip file here. The enclosed Readme file gives details for the installation.

Mac players are in a separate team as the HoF Mod cannot be made to work cross-platform. They will use Civ4 for Mac version 1.74, and HOF-Mac-1.74.002.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of April 24.

Please try to complete this game within three months of the start date.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

​

Map Parameters

Playable Leader/Civ - Qin Shi Huang of China.
Characteristics - Industrious and Financial, starts with Agriculture and Mining
Unique Unit - Cho-Ku-Nu (Crossbowman)
Rivals - All of them
World size - Tiny
Difficulty - Deity
Landform - Continents
Environment - Temperate climate, low sea level
Game Speed - Normal
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Normal
Permanent Alliances - Enabled
City Razing - Enabled. China auto-razes to enforce OCC.
​

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The laurels will be presented to the three teams who achieve victories in the fewest turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
  
• Do NOT view any other team threads until you have submitted your last save - win, lose or retire.
  
• Do NOT download any other team's save.

Enjoy your game, and please be nice to each other

 

[Ozbenno]

Checking in.

Greetings to pholkhero and glenmetz, our new members.

As usual, I have a million useless thoughts on the game, so I'll put them down later.

 

[cubbiesin08]

Checking in as well.

Welcome new members.

 

[glenmetz]

Checking in as well folks and thanks for the welcome.

 

[McArine]

Checking in, this is going to be interesting.

 

[Ozbenno]

I'm going to WB a save as similar to the above as I can get and run through a trial game or two this weekend. I can post the 4000BC save here if anyone wants to do the same.

 

[Ozbenno]

Firstly, it would be good if everyone posts some thoughts about the game, any aspect of it, as it will need some pretty tight gameplay to win this one. I reckon half the teams at least will not win and I want to be one of the ones that do

OK, how the hell is it possible to win this game? I can see two ways to win. Diplomatic and PA-Space.

Diplomatic - Not actually that hard (I've done it Deity-OCC) if you can pick your opponents and regenerate the map until your start has 2 gems, cows, rice etc. With every opponent and a commerce average location it would be a stretch to be able to tech to Mass Media before an AI launches, let alone deal with the tangled mess of diplomacy well enough to get 75% of the votes. Still possible though but would take some doing.

PA-Space - Another well worn tactic in the HoF (haven't tried it myself). To me, the easiest way to win this. Easy, no but easiest. The issue will be aligning ourselves with the right AI (does anyone know the full list of AI in vanilla that won't PA, Alex is one but there are others). Gandhi, Mansu, Washington, Elizabeth would all be great PA partners but will they survive in a Monty, Genghis infested world? It may be that someone like Cyrus, Saladin or Peter is the better choice.

So they are the two ways we can win. We'll probably have to see the lay of the land and who is placed where before we can decide on an approach but we should be thinking really early about how to win and who to align ourselves with and who to never trade with.

What about the game itself?

China - This game was made for us, we have to win

Qin - One of the better Vanilla leaders. Financial/Industrious with Marble and Stone.

Wonders - This is one of the things playing tests games will be crucial for, finding out how easy getting wonders is. On OCC you don't need money, as you have minimal upkeep (can be 0 for the whole game), so losing out on a wonder is a real kick in the teeth, as opposed to a multi-city game where you can use the monery to run defecit research. We very likely will run 100% the whole game, so we have to build every wonder we start. We need to have a really tight plan on what we want to build and when they will fall. If anyone plays a test game, can they record when the wonders fell, so we can use that knowledge in the game. We want to build lots of wonders if we can because we want lots of Great People. We really want Pyramids (may as well give up if we don't get it ), Great Library (same), Hanging Gardens (extra health and pop is great and GEs are the best to merge) and Statue of Liberty (free GP). Colossus would help being financial, Oracle is always good, Chichen Itza, Hagia (more GE points) and Parthenon would all be good too.

OCC This actually makes the game easier for us. If it was multi city, I doubt we could win, OCC gives us a chance. We can build all the National Wonders without the pre-req no of buildings (ie can build Oxford by building a university). Pyramids is a must as we will run heaps of specialists and pretty much merge any Great Person we pop, except GS for Academy and maybe Education. Due to this, we can keep up with the AI science wise for quite a while. Happiness is not an issue in this game (Globe wipes it) but health is always very limited.

17 opponents - tiny map - Again makes it easier for us. The AI won't have the power to expand like we do and they don't have the bonuses of OCC like we do. They are Deity, so they have plenty of advantages. There is going to be masses of war in this game and we will very likely get caught up in it (especially if we want to get a PA). Having an early tech advantage means we can hopefully bribe in war allies and have adequate defences.

OK, you're all bored of this by now. I've got more but I'll leave it for another time

 

[ngraner42]

Welcome to pholkhero and glenmetz. Oz that would be great if you could post a practice save.

We improved our team dynamics last game with our posting of plans. Lets continue that and definitely lets play with a WB save before deciding on our initial moves. The initial decisions are the most critical. In GOTM play, I usually fiddle with a test save for a couple hours before starting the real thing.

 

[pholkhero]

Thanks for the welcomes all, and glad to be hear. will try to pull my weight as best i can.

ozzie makes good points, but we need to settle and figure out which wonder we want to first aim for. my guess is a pyramids, so we need masonry and a worker to help it along w/a quarry.

I'd play any test save that can be generated, even just to know what to expect.

 

[Ozbenno]

Well I WBed a save looking like the one in our starting post.

First two times through Pyramids fell before 2300BC. Third time Alex declared at 2600BC with 4 archers. I'm going to make another tonight without Alex as a near neighbour and see.

Pyramids may not be such a good idea after all. We probably don't have the food to run specialists but still the missed beakers from Representation and merged GPs will hurt. I'm wondering if Oracleing Metal Casing (for Colossus) or Code of Laws is a better idea.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Checking in, Welcome pholk and glen, good that I'm no longer the newbie in the team.

Oz if you could post a test save I think would be good idea for as many as poss to give it a try first.
This game I can sense is going to be tough and is going to be crucial we get off to right start. As is OCC we need to get city position right. Once we do get started I thnk we need to take turn at a time moving warrior to find best city spot. I'm not 100% with initial spot, as Oz mentioned health will be the most limiting factor to our growth, at the moment only health resource we have is crabs if we can uncover some wheat,corn or rice around the blue circle to south maybe better to move there?? We have a lot of forests around us which means we will get initial health boost but we are going to want to chop these at some point so we need to balance this. One thing to say is that surely the hill one north has metal resource in it. As we are China I would think more likely to be Iron for Cho-ku-nu's. Other than this there seem to be limited free squares for resources.

I agree early wonders are the key with pyramids being the holy grail of them, and the first section of this game should be geared to gaining them. Other than this Glib, Oracle, Parthenon would be good I'm not sure much else will be actually benefit us taking into account the likely time needed to complete them.

I think a lot is going to depend on unknown factors in this game e.g Cyrus with horses will be alot more dangerous than Cyrus without.

 

[Terminator3k]

Checking in ....

A warm welcome to glenmetz and pholkhero. I hope you both have as much fun as I've had with this group.

Oz, can you still type after your initial note! Wow! Great thoughts as always. I agree with the wonders you listed and am partial to the PA-Space victory condition (I've always been a builder at heart).

As far as the first move of the game, I would move the warrior 1 SW to explore the other blue circle. From the opening screenshot, it doesn't look like that second blue circle tile has access to fresh water. Founding in place on the hill with access to fresh water is probably going to be our best bet. Hopefully we can trade our second crab for another health resource.

In the interest of full disclosure, I haven't played a lot of OCC games. If anyone can post a practice save, that would be great.

 

[McArine]

We allso should consider civics.

Representation - We need the Pyramids.

Bureaucracy for the extra production and gold.

Slavery, for the start of the game, when happiness can be an issue. Later I think we should go for Caste System.

Economy wise, I think Environmentalism, but as that is going to be far away in the beginning. Other than that I'd say Free Market.

Pacifism, I know our economy will suffer, but the extra GP we'll get should counter that.

Those civics will take us through Masonry, Bronze Working, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Philosophy and Economics (and Ecology).

I think we need a clear research path, what are our long term goals, and what are the next 3-5 techs in order.
My suggestion for the first are: Fishing, Masonry, The Wheel, Meditation, Priesthood, Bronze Working, and Hunting. In that order.

 

[Ozbenno]

I haven't had the time to redo a practise map sorry. Won't have the time until Thursday at the earliest, so if anyone has the inclination...

 

[glenmetz]

Sorry, I thought I was subscribed to this but I guess I wasn't. Just checking in again now.

The big issues here are what to do at the beginning, the 1st 100 turns are going to be critical. My thoughts.

Production-Do we throw our hammers into the Mids, or into military might? Personally in a OCC I don't think conquering our neighbors is a great idea, as most likely another AI will just fill in the area with thier own cities. But if we are going the Mids we need to....

Tech-Fishing(To get the crab online)->Masonry(To build the mids and quarries)->Bronze Working (To get slavery running

Build Orders-Warrior-Worker (Unless fishing is online, then a work boat)-Mids

Worker will have to get the Stone online ASAP as it will halve our production of the Mids.

Settle in place, the warrior won't see anything better on its move and wasting more turns probably isn't going to help when he have 2 crab, Stone, Marble, and Furs in the BFC. And we'll be on a hill for the production.

Added-If anyone post a WB save, I'll play around as well

 

[Ozbenno]

OK, here's a test save.

Can everyone have a play and report back on how you went, especially the beginning 50 or so turns. Have a think about the best opening and try it and see how it goes, early build orders, tech queues. We should be able to figure out how to start this off at least.

If you're brave enough, see if you can win, or at least pick a way to win and see how close or not you get, especially if you're considering a PA as that will take some work.

Right, off to play

 

[Ozbenno]

Initial plan is to go for Pyramids and tech for Alphabet/Literature. I notice that we need The Wheel to hook up the stone for Pyramids. In order to get Pyramids done asap, the starting warrior just explores a few squares around the capital and goes back home, I can't afford to build a warrior for sentry duty and with a 4 happy cap, I need him home.

Research path was Fishing, Masonry, The Wheel, Bronze Working, Pottery, Writing

Build order was worker, work boat, Pyramids

Pyramids are built in 2160BC by me thankfully.

Next part of the plan is to tech for Alphabet, then Literature for GL. Any other wonder comes along may be built. Try and get a scientist employed as well. I don't revolt to Rep yet either.

Research path Writing, Alphabet, Mysticism, Polytheism, Literature, Code of Laws

Build order Work Boat, warrior, library, granary, barracks, archer, lighthouse, Great Library

The diplo starts to be tricky as we're on the religion continent as Hindu (Tokogawa), Buddhist (Asoka) and Judaism (Isabella) all on our continent. Asoka asks me to become a buddhist but I don't want to piss off Tokogawa, who asks me to stop trading with Hatty which I do.

I get to Alphabet first but its the only tech I can trade. I'm not sure about getting GL yet so hold off trading.

Now it starts to get interesting. Cathy asks me to join the war against Hatty. She's not the worst PA partner to have so I agree. Hatty is far away. Cross fingers and hope for the best.

I trade Napolean Alphabet for Iron Working and Archery.

First GP is a scientist, Academy please.

The only problem with Cathy is that she is a demanding mistress. She now asks for me to become Buddhist. I reluctantly agree.

Second part of the plan is in, Great Library built.

Next part is to try and work towards the PA. That means Communism. Basically my goals from here are to suck up to Cathy and tech towards Communism, via Civil Service.

Research Civil Service, Paper, Education, Philosophy, Liberalism (Astronomy), Printing Press, Sci Method, Communism

Build order Buddhist Monastery, Aqueduct, National Epic, Buddhist Temple, sword, research, uni, Oxford

Cathy changes religions so I go back to NSR (2 turns after revolting into OR ).

An engineer is born and merged.

As I research paper I realise no-one else has it, so time for a Liberalism gambit. I pop a GS while half way through Education and think about bulbing it but as no-one has Paper I merge him instead. No idea what I will be able to take from Liberalism. Astronomy would be good

The Ai from the other continent start showing up. They are less advanced so I can trade up the tree to make a decent go from Liberalism.

Cathy finally makes peace with Hatty and so do I. Hopefully that was 40 turns (>1000BC - 150AD).

My map trading gives me the circumnavigation bonus and I've never built a ship.

No one has Paper when I get Education but I can't trade for Philosophy so have to research it but that will be a great trading tech.

Now Elizabeth wants me to join in a war against Tokogawa. She would be a great PA partner too so I say yes.

Grab Astronomy from Liberalism.

Communism comes in at 1040AD. I can PA with Cathy instntly but Lizzy would be a better choice so I hold off until I can PA with her. She destroys Toko a few turns later and I have to research Military Tradition and DP for a few turns and then get my PA and coast to space.



Picked the right partner for PA.

Generally, I think this is the right tactic to employ but the game obviously is going to be much different. It will all depend upon we can PA with.

 

[glenmetz]

Wow, well played. I never really thought about not building a first warrior but it makes perfect sense. Not like we need anyone out exploring for new city sites or anything.

Also, I think it might be a good idea to seal our borders until we can figure out which religion is most dominant and align ourselves with those nations. Just a thought. I will try and play some of the above save within the next few days.

 

[Ozbenno]

Well the game is started but I'd like to hold off starting until we hammer out a strategy properly.

For our new members, we organise the order of the rotation on a first in, best dressed basis first time round and stick with that for the rest of the game. I think we play in sections of 10 even from the start, as our neighbours and neighbourhood are going to play a part in how we play the game. If we have a psycho as a direct neighbour (Alex, Genghis, Monty etc), the game changes dramatically straight away.

Here's my take on how we should start (based purely on my test game). Agree/disagree?

Starting strategy Part I
Research: Fishing, Masonry, The Wheel, Bronze Working
Build: Worker, Work Boat, Pyramids

Advantages: I think this is the only way we get Pyramids. We try and slip in a warrior or research another tech, we lose them.
Potential Dangers: We don't know if another Industrious AI has stone next to their capital, if so, we don't get them.

Again, this is all based on going for PA/space, if we want to attempt a diplo victory, possibly an Oracle of Metal Casing or Code of Laws would be better than Pyramids(as we would be bulbing techs rather than merging). Terminator expressed a preference to chase the PA, anyone else dare to express an opinion.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Well played Oz, lets hope we have similiar result!!

I think PA space victory is the way to go diplo in this game would be too difficult and rely on a lot of fortune to be able to get diplo victory.

I think we ned to take the risk to get the mids, I'd say we need to micromanage if needed to complete worker as soon as we finish Masonry or he will have nothing to do ie switch to workboat for a few turns if worker is to finish before Masonry.