SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

I stopped at turn 85 because Monarchy is still not available.

The good news is that everything else is going more or less according to plan, and Fred is giving us his dye for our crab, so we were able to hit pop 9 with no happy problems so far. Got currency from Kublai Khan on turn 83, as planned. Big surprise on turn 82 --> Asoka has already got Civil Service. Asoka also demanded Code of Laws from us IBT before turn 85 & I gave it to him.

Screenshots & the autolog are below. Can I post the save here without uploading it, or would that be against the rules? I've got a lunch appointment in about an hour, and cannot pick it up again until later this afternoon. Will wait that long for discussions, or I can just upload the save early. Let me know your preference.

The big question now, as I see it, is whether to revolt to CS now or wait a turn or two to see if we can get monarchy. We might also start on Monarchy ourselves (about 5 turns, IIRC), but with Asoka having CS already I'm not sure we can afford to delay our drive toward Liberalism.

Autolog:
I had a little trouble with the user comments. :blush:

Sorry about the double posts.

Spoiler :

WastinTime · May 17, 2008

I've never seen the AI get CS before me. You must be mistaken.

If Asoka asked for CoL on turn 85, how can he have CS?

3 AI now have monarchy. I think just 1 more needs it and it will become available. It's silly to research Monarchy ourselves.

Bureaucracy can't wait. We can't go several turns hoping for Monarchy. It only costs us 1 turn to revolt again later.

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

WastinTime said:
I've never seen the AI get CS before me. You must be mistaken.

If Asoka asked for CoL on turn 85, how can he have CS?

No mistake.

He must have went through Feudalism.

WastinTime said:
I3 AI now have monarchy. I think just 1 more needs it and it will become available. It's silly to research Monarchy ourselves.

I agree, but thought it needed to be stated as an option. We are now at our happy cap, and we'll have to stop growing in 3 turns (IIRC) unless we can get Monarchy or some other kind of +

.

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

You can see in the technology trade screen that Asoka can now research paper, and I'm certain I saw Civil Service in his "won't trade" category on turn 82.

Looks like Asoka just revolted to Vassalage & Surfdom on turn 80, so he won't be able to revolt to Bureaucracy until turn 90, right?

WastinTime · May 17, 2008

Balthalion said:
We are now at our happy cap, and we'll have to stop growing in 3 turns (IIRC) unless we can get Monarchy or some other kind of +.

We should immediately get off food and work something else. We can revolt to HR in 5 turns.

The only way I can explain Asoka's CS is that he has 2 gold and 2 incense. More importantly, with 18 civs his upkeep costs are way down with only 2 cities. Normally, the AI would be expanding to 8-10 cities, so there is a huge boost in their research rate right now (explaining the early longbows.) Soon the 2-3 city empires will cost them. And they cannot build Oxford, so Liberalism still looks easy.

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

Here is the city screen. Our great scientist will arrive in 5 turns as is, 4 turns with one additional scientist employed, and 3 turns with two scientists employed. We could go back to build mode now and go for a quicker National Epic, but I'm not sure that would help. How worried should we be now about still getting to Liberalism first? :confused:

Is revolting to ~~civil service~~ CASTE SYSTEM with bureaucracy an option worth considering?

EDIT: cross-post with WT.

EDIT #2: This is reassuring/good to know.

WastinTime said:
they cannot build Oxford, so Liberalism still looks easy.

EDIT #3: I've got to leave for my appointment. Didn't hear anything about the legality of posting the save so I won't do it at this time. Probably won't be able to get back to the computer until about 4 or 5 hours from now at the earliest. Tonight after 6PM is probably a more accurate prediction. Will check in again then. Last chance to ask for any additional screenshots or other info in the next ten minutes or so.

EDIT #4: I meant to say, "Is revolting to CASTE SYSTEM with bureaucracy an option worth considering?" -- fixed.

BLubmuz · May 17, 2008

I'm totally against a double anarchy.
Let's wait some 2-3 turns (i guess until next TS) and if Monarchy will not come we'll revolt to Bureau and never revolt to HR: no sense to loose 1 turn when Drama can be researched in 4-5 and the Globe can come Right after Oxford.
We can't be so dependant from the AI for our happiness!
In the meantime, now that we have dyes, a theater is a good choice for our happiness, and another cultural building is what we need to raze that stupid icy city.

I think it's better vote on this.
Sorry WT, but things are goin' strangely in this game.
It can be a mania of mine, but i hate anarchy.

I've seen now the last edit of Balth.
Yes, i think we can consider to revolt to CS together with Bureau, and hopefully with HR.
I guess we can stay there forever, with the Globe we don't care the Emancipation penalty.

Doubt: have you finished your TS Balth?

I was stupidly asking why they cannot build Oxford, then i remember you need 3 univs in a tiny map (or 4?).
Perhaps some AI already has 3 cities? (Lizzy does not count).

WastinTime · May 17, 2008

You are crazy Blub. If you wait just 2 turns without switching to bureau then you've almost cost yourself the same as and extra turn of anarchy. The only possible way you'd come out ahead is if Monarchy is available on the very next turn. And even with that miracle, you still lost 1/2 turn. Revolt now is the only sensible option.

And no, we can't skip HR. The Globe is much farther off than you think.

Finally, we can't revolt to CS, Bureau, and HR. That's 2 turns of anarchy any way you slice it. We probably won't ever use CS, but if its a free switch I suppose we can take it. Maybe when Monarchy comes in 5 turns we can switch to serfdom too for free?

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

Would there be any maintenance cost issues with revolting to Caste System with Bureaucracy now and waiting for Hereditary Rule & maybe serfdom? Getting the extra civics *might* at least help to make up for the pain of having to revolt twice.

I, for one, would rather revolt twice than hold off on bureaucracy any longer. Growth is important, but the extra 50% :science:

and 50%

is more important IMHO.

@BLub, I would like to finish my turnset through turn 87 as planned. If you'd rather I just stop and upload now so the team can consider our position more carefully, then I will. Do you know if it would be *acceptable* under the rules for me to simply post the save here in our thread without uploading it on the main page?

EDIT: Is anyone else having trouble getting to the main GOTM page? I can't seem to get my browser to load it properly now anyway. I wonder if that could be why we haven't heard from some of our other teammates in awhile? :confused:

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

Okay, as I see it the "vote" currently stands at 2 to 1 for revolting to Bureaucracy now rather than waiting for Monarchy. I'd also like to finish my turnset as planned, so here is what I propose...

I'll wait until 8:00 PM (about 1 1/2 hours from now) to see if any more votes come in from the team. If the vote remains in favor of revolting to bureaucracy now then I'll follow the plan below. If the vote goes to tied or in favor of waiting to revolt, then I'll wait until tomorrow to play or to upload the save as it is now. (Also, if we hear from BLub and he wants the save uploaded now then I'll do that.)

Revised Plan:

revolt to Bureaucracy and Caste System now.
change tiles worked to focus on production instead of growth.
continue to try to trade for Monarchy.
continue to research Paper.
set build to National Epic after monastery completes.

...is anybody ooouuuut therrreeee.... :confused:

culdeus · May 17, 2008

Not liking the double revolt either. Someone has to want to trade with us.

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

culdeus said:
Not liking the double revolt either. Someone has to want to trade with us.

I don't "like" the double revolt either. Is that a vote against rebelling to bureaucracy now, culdeus? I'll assume it is unless there is some clarification before 8:00.

The vote now stands tied at 2 to 2.

Merum · May 17, 2008

I've finally got my computer back up and running! :band:

This means I can go back into the rotation at whatever convenient point presents itself.

I am in WT's camp on the revolt question.

PS: Japanese scotch really helps to smooth out the re-installation process. :cheers:

MacBalt · May 17, 2008

Merum said:
PS: Japanese scotch really helps to smooth out the re-installation process.

Hey! You need to bring enough to share!

Merum said:
I am in WT's camp on the revolt question.

Okay, it is now a few minutes after 8:00 PM and that makes the vote 3 to 2 in favor of revolting to Bureaucracy now, so I'm going to finish the turnset.

Sweetacshon · May 17, 2008

Balthalion said:
Do you know if it would be *acceptable* under the rules for me to simply post the save here in our thread without uploading it on the main page?
Yes it is, but the same rules apply: Noone make any irriversible actions ingame.

EDIT: Is anyone else having trouble getting to the main GOTM page? I can't seem to get my browser to load it properly now anyway. I wonder if that could be why we haven't heard from some of our other teammates in awhile?
Nope, it's working fine for me.

On anarchy, my vote is to swap now. In an uber-simplified example, it only takes 2 turns to catch up. Say income is 2/turn, then bureau makes it 2*1.5=3/turn. Then:

t1- t2- t3 - etc..
2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12 - 12 - 15<- no change til HR and bureau
2 - 2 - 5 - 8 - 11 - 14 - 17 - 20<- monarchy comes in next turn for revolt
2 - 4 - 6 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15 - 18<- get monarchy in 3 turns time for revolt
0 - 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15 - 15 - 18<- anarchy and bureau now, HR in 5 turns

So, in this simple example, we are only better off waiting for the double revolt if monarchy comes in the next 2 turns, which is by no means certain. This implies to me to swap asap, and we'll deal with monarchy when it comes - I don't think we can just wait around for it to become available. Another point is that we still have 3 turns til growth, that means if we can pick up monarchy in the next 5 turns, we've only lost 2 turns at pop 10 (and we gain the extra production/science from growth stall), + anarchy

edit: Looks like I was too late, anyway.

culdeus · May 18, 2008

Merum said:
PS: Japanese scotch really helps to smooth out the re-installation process.

What is that even like anyways? How can it be "scotch" exactly? I'm intrigued.

Why am I picturing:

Merum · May 18, 2008

culdeus said:
What is that even like anyways? How can it be "scotch" exactly? I'm intrigued.

As far as Japanese single malts (aka scotch) go, blind taste testing has shown them to be the equal of anything produced in Scotland and I have to say that a double of Yamazaki 17 is something to behold. Even a Mizuwari made with cheap old Nikka Black is nice to relax with, and the fact that you can buy them in 12oz cans at 7-11 and take them with you on the Shinkansen (or even buy them on the train from the nice cart lady) while you're riding certainly doesn't hurt.

As far as "Lost in Translation" goes, if you've seen it, you can sort of understand how my "permanent jet lag" feels most of the time.

Which reminds me, since I have a nice Sunday afternoon off...

Tsuruga Castle, Aizuwakamatsu, Japan

Hope your Sunday is as enjoyable.

MacBalt · May 18, 2008

The problem is that the good news is kind of mixed and the bad news is... well, very bad.

On the good side, George gave us Monarchy, Monotheism, and 70 gold for Code of Laws and Literature on turn 86. BLub was right this time -- we should have waited one turn to revolt.

On the bad side... Well, you can check the screenshot below for the bad news -- which came at the beginning of turn 87. :cry:

Ugh. I've been wrestling with getting this posted for hours now. Got some kind of virus and haven't been able to post the save in the usual way yet either. I've attached it here so you all can have a look and start trying to figure out our options. Will upload it in the usual way as soon as I can. Sorry guys.

The Autolog:

Spoiler :

MacBalt · May 18, 2008

Okay, I cannot figure this out. I scanned for viruses and removed a few files, and now everything seems to work all right except the GOTM root page. I can load the HOF pages, the forum pages, and everything else, but not the GOTM page and I can't seem to get to the GOTM upload page directly either... but I might not have the correct url for that. I'm tired and frustrated and I'm going to give up now. Got stuff going on tomorrow, but will try my best to get the damn thing uploaded properly in-between family stuff. Honestly... :mad:

Anyway, on the game... The funny thing is, the only units George has in our territory are two longbows. He's got like seven in New York, but only two in our territory on top of the silver hill. Shouldn't there be a stack of invaders somewhere? Is it possible that someone else -- maybe Liz, because of Nottingham -- bribed him to DOW us??? Something still doesn't seem right about this...

What I wouldn't give for a shot (or seven) of that Japanese Scotch right now...

WastinTime · May 18, 2008

Don't Panic.

I think we can handle George. It really doesn't affect our goal much anyway (which is to have Asoka launch a spaceship.) Obviously we switch to Axes. That's gonna really suck we are not in HR when we lose silver next turn and probably Fur soon.

edit: we can trade for a little cash and upgrade our 2 warriors. They're 80 each.

The first thing I usually try to do in this case is bring in a war ally. Isabella looks interested. We'd have to gift her CoL to make CS available. Then see if she'd go to war for CS the following turn. The only other options we have are HC and Alex. The AI will never join a 2nd war, so we'd have to pay Alex lots of tech for peace (HC won't do it.) Then see if either is interested in War on Washington. Messy. We could just try to hold on for 10 turns by ourselves and see if he'll go for peace. I don't envy the next player up.

p.s. We should have gifted tech to Washington long ago like we planned. I think we are paying for that mistake now.

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