SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

Not sure on bribes, but I'm pretty sure the AI only brings in war allies to a war they already are involved. I seriously doubt a third party did that, but then again, I don't play with the "crazies" much.

@Blub: KK could have been bribed (not can). Just pointing out the english you requested, I'm not agreeing he could have been bribed.

Friendly: Remember, If they were only Pleased on the turn they made the decision to make a war machine and send it at you, it's too late to go friendly and stop them. I don't know how long you'd have to be friendly w/Ragnar to be 100% safe.
 
Thanks all for my verbs.

Sweeta, i think you can add to your plan, with general consensus:
Bribe both JC and Alex to KK, do NOT waste Astro to bribe Asoka.

Not yet clear for the tradings, please give that poor guy some hint!
 
save
It was a bit of a debacle. On turn 1, I was typing a log entry, hit enter twice, and ended the turn prematurely. This means I didn't get to gift edu to Washo (not a big deal), and more importantly didn't get forces into the forest. Consequently, in the clean up phase on turn 2, I had to finish the enemy off, depleting the garrison and angering the population. Anyway, we probably lost a turn on the galleon, but didn't delay SM.

In trades, we got Drama and Guilds thrown in to the war decs, as well as a little cash. Could have taken eng instead, but guilds enables grocers. So instead of replacing the dead archers, we may as well get on to the theatre and GT.

Otherwise, Alex and JC are warring KK (power graph movements show a bit of action), and we met Monty and MM. See the save and pics for diplo and trades. Banking, gunpowder, eng, and music might all be useful trades.

Spoiler :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 134/460 (475 AD) [13-Jun-2008 16:32:20]
User comment: Checklist:
User comment: Settle GS
User comment: Bribe JC and Alex
Tech learned: Guilds
Julius Caesar(Rome) declares war on Kublai Khan(Mongolia)
Alexander(Greece) declares war on Kublai Khan(Mongolia)
Tech learned: Drama
User comment: JC - Edu for war, guilds, and 30g
Beijing finishes: Aqueduct
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'

Turn 135/460 (500 AD) [13-Jun-2008 16:54:52]
Beijing begins: Galleon (3 turns)
Contact made: Aztec Empire
User comment: Oh you sonofab... pressed enter twice while logging, and didn't get a chance to move defenders :mad:
Axeman promoted: Cover
While attacking in Chinese territory at Beijing, Axeman defeats (1.60/5): Mongolian Archer (Prob Victory: 74.5%)
While attacking in Chinese territory at Beijing, Axeman defeats (2.60/5): Mongolian Archer (Prob Victory: 87.8%)
Archer promoted: Combat I
While attacking in Chinese territory near New York, Archer loses to: Mongolian Archer (2.04/3) (Prob Victory: 10.9%)
While attacking in Chinese territory near New York, Longbowman loses to: Mongolian Archer (0.60/3) (Prob Victory: 98.8%)
While attacking in Chinese territory at Beijing, Archer defeats (1.86/3): Mongolian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Archer promoted: Guerilla I
Archer promoted: Guerilla II
User comment: Because of the poor defencive position from last turn, the KK archers were on the cottage and fur, and the other worker was in danger. 2 axes took out 2 archers, 1 archer softened up the 3rd while dying, and the LB took the xp...
User comment: ...but died at 98.8%!!! Terrible. Another archer claims the xp, but now Beijing is angry.
User comment: Gift education to Washington.
User comment: Gift stone to Asoka
User comment: Whale for Cyrus' fish.
User comment: We've met the backward and lowly Monty, also Confucian.
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Louis XIV(France), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Louis XIV(France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Louis XIV(France) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'

Turn 136/460 (520 AD) [13-Jun-2008 17:16:42]
State Religion Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Hinduism' to 'no State Religion'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Washington(America), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Free Religion'

Turn 137/460 (540 AD) [13-Jun-2008 17:20:10]
User comment: Not for you, Toku, while Washo gets a GP (and will trade banking). Liz is in OR, as WT prophesied.
Contact made: Malinese Empire
User comment: MM owns the south pole, and seems to have been exiled there by Loius.
User comment: Cyrus now has Gunpowder on the table.
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 138/460 (560 AD) [13-Jun-2008 17:28:50]


**Photobucket is being temperamental, will add pics later.**
 
Not much you can do about the accidental enter key. Good recovery. You didn't lose the deer or the worker. Question: Would it have been legal for Sweeta to just give the save to someone else after his accident and not play any turns? as long has he didn't report anything that happened, or would they DQ us?

Wow look at how backward Monty and MM are. Should consider some gifts for them, especially mansa.

Our boat needs to turn around to get around to the other side. We should have traded for a map when we met cyrus.

Worker: A)Why didn't he finish the cottage he was working on? B) Why are we covering him with an archer? Upgrade to LB.
C) We should not be working the silver. KK has no OB with Wash, so the only way he can get to us is thru that silver. Note he also has engineering. That means he could have a stack in the fog 3 tiles away that will stomp on our archer/worker next turn.

I don't see any alternatives to finishing SM. Asoka had Econ long ago. We should trade for banking/econ soon.

I'd like to have 2 LB on the silver, but maybe we can't cus we need a few more military home for happiness. We need to get back on the deer and grow 3-4 more pop.
 
WastinTime said:
I don't see any alternatives to finishing SM. Asoka had Econ long ago. We should trade for banking/econ soon.
Click to expand...
Just checked the save. Here are some thoughts...

Do we know Asoka had Economics long ago? He had to have been focused pretty hard on Liberalism to almost beat us there. Washington will trade Banking and Music (needed later for Military Tradition) and 40 gold for Printing Press. We could make the trade and find out if Asoka really has it yet. In the meantime, we could put one turn of research into Nationalism, which might make it easier for us to get that in trade later. Printing Press is an expensive tech, I know, but that might help George to get closer to being "pleased" with us... It would be a long shot, I know...

Also, some other things to consider: I fiddled around with working different tiles and discovered we can get a theater in one turn by working stone, marble, 2 scientists, 1 engineer, fur, deer, 3 Plains-Hill-Forests, the plains town and one other cottage/town. We'd starve the city by 8 food points, but we'll have some turns to make that up again while building the Globe. Also, we are getting a dye from Fred, so that would be one extra happy point right off the bat.

On the other hand, if we go the Nationalism/trade route then we could, instead, just pull the two scientists for a turn, get the theater in two and have another pop growth ready in as few as three turns. Even if Economics is not available, the one turn delay with research plugged into Nationalism could be a good investment for just one turn's delay.

Understand, I'm just thinking out loud... I was the one who wanted to go straight through to Physics in the first place, remember? ;) Anyway, what do you all think? Is any of this worth considering seriously?
 
It's not guesswork, Asoka adopted Free Market a while ago, hence Econ.

GW is +4 trade relations. We can't go any higher, so no more gifts. OB is the only option if you want to go for Pleased. Or wait for him to forget some of his anger. We might get there.

I don't think Nat. is very close to being discovered. I don't think it's that urgent that we get our DPs so we shouldn't research it ourselves, just wait for it. Nothin wrong with taking banking/music so we can see how things are coming along better.

No starving, growing. Theatre can come next, but it doesn't have to be 1 turn.
 
Wow. Why is he going so fast this game, I wonder? Merum may be right about any delay being a risk to Physics.

Given that there isn't much benefit, after all, to getting Banking and Music sooner rather than a little later, I'd rather wait. I bet we'll be able to get those techs for something a lot cheaper than Printing Press within a few turns.

WastinTime, getting the Defense Pact(s) is still urgent though -- just not urgent enough to warrant researching Nationalism ourselves, right? I still think doing Military Tradition ourselves will give us an important boost. Would putting one turn of research into Nationalism -- either now or (preferably) later -- have a trade payoff that could make it worthwhile?

I think I'm up, right? I'll put a plan together tomorrow and hope to play on Sunday, after the discussion and revisions. ;)

EDIT: Given that growth is going to be our priority, would it be a good idea to pull the two scientists for a turn or two to get another pop point right after the theater?
 
Have a great time, culdeus. Hope you can find a way to check in one or twice, anyway.

I've got the save and my "draft" plan follows. It's verbose, as usual :blush:, but hopefully not too far off the mark. Tear it apart today and I'll put a revised draft together early tomorrow and (hopefully) plan to play tomorrow night. If any significant new invasion force arrives, or if we get any pile-on DOWs (from George, for example), I'll plan to stop and consult the team about our options.

*DRAFT #1* Goals for the Next Turnset:
  1. Turns to Play: Finish 138, play 139-145, stop before ending turn 145.
  2. Research Path: Finish Scientific Method, begin Physics
  3. Build Order: Finish Galleon (1t), Theater (2t), begin Globe Theater.
  4. City Priority = Growth: Population = 14
    • Tiles to Work: 2xCrab, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble, 4xGrass Cottages, Plains Cottage, 1xCoast, 2xScientists (shift one coast to deer from current configuration); growth in 4.
    • After Galleon, MM the tiles worked to get both theater and growth in two turns, even if I have to pull one or both of the scientists for a turn or two to do it.
    • After Theater, MM the tiles worked to try to time the next growth with the completion of the globe theater. I may or may not keep up to two scientists employed. (Please let me know if anyone has strong ideas about keeping the scientists even if they might ****** our growth a bit.)
  5. Inherited Turn: Upgrade archer on silver to Longbow. Make trade with Louis (see #8).
  6. Worker: Immediately move worker and escort to grass/forest 2S-1E of Beijing and finish cottage. After that, move to grass/forest 2E of Beijing and begin cottage.
  7. Military: Move galleon to our coast/fish tile and sentry there.
  8. Technology Trading:
    • Trade Louis Guilds for his Music + 100 gold + World Map. We need music for Military Tradition later and I’ll use the 100 gold immediately to upgrade another archer (the one with two hills promotions in Beijing) to Longbow. The world map could be useful for getting to see the other continent too.
    • One Warning: Louis and Isabella are furious with each other. This trade will probably get us a “traded with our worst enemy” penalty with Isabella, but I’m willing to eat that now. Louis is also not happy with either JC or HC, but they are only -1 toward him. Everyone else is either at zero or above with Louis on the glance screen.
    • I’ll keep my eyes open for cheap Banking and/or Engineering trades, but probably won’t take either this turnset for fear of WFYABTA. I’d like to make sure we can get Nationalism as soon as it becomes available.
    • No trades for Horseback Riding or Theology
    • Technology gifts? -- Maybe we should gift something to Mansa? Perhaps Civil Service and/or Guilds would be good, so he can at least start making some money for us to get in trade? No other technology gifts this turnset.
  9. Resource Trading: No new resource trades. It looks like the Cyrus whale for fish trade has got us set up pretty well.
  10. Civics Changes: None this turnset.
  11. Political Demands:
    • DO NOT give in to any demand for Astronomy. (Even/especially if it comes from Asoka or Liz? Advice please?)
    • DO NOT give in to any demand for Scientific Method. (Even/especially if it comes from Asoka or Liz? Advice please?)
    • Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change)
    • Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
    • Do not join any wars.
    • Do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Asoka or Liz??? Advice Please?)
 
Good one, Sweeta, pity for your double hit, it happens.
No way to do anything about that (let another player start from the official save): he made some irreversible move (tech/war trades) and this can be detected.

Balth, your plan seem good. MM so backwards is strange, we can give him something: remember to not plain gift, take a WM or some cash.

Worker: try to time the cottages with the Globe, we gain the 50% since we're building a wonder (even NW count for an industrious).

Astro and SM are key techs, don't trade them until 1-2 turn(s) to Physics, and for some valuable tech.

Yes we don't need HBR or Theo.

If you can target a better civ for music, well. Otherwise, trade with Louis.
Izzy can be an alternative to Asoka or Liz, in case they're not interested on a PA.
Don't worry, when in free religion nobody ask for a conversion.
Cancel deals: yes, only from Asoka or Liz, but with a civ we don't care.

Don't stop the war: if we're not in danger, the longer it lasts, the more our relations improve.
Stop it only if we gain a valuable tech or a lot (and i mean no less than 500 gold) of money and if is KK to ask.

Culdeus, i hope your solar lotions will work! have a nice vacation!
 
Good plan. I agree with everything.

Answering a couple of your questions:
I think we have to give Astron if they ask, especially Asoka. We need him. Astron is old news anyway. SM you'd probably have to say no, but I'm not even sure of that. Is it really a big deal that we're 1st to Physics? We're just heading to Computers. One extra scientist would be nice, but not a deal breaker.

Since we have a deal with Cyrus (fish) we might as well open borders for the relations boost. Whether we have 1 deal or 2 with him doesn't increase the chances someone will ask to cancel deals.
 
BLubmuz said:
No way to do anything about that (let another player start from the official save): he made some irreversible move (tech/war trades) and this can be detected.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm 99% sure I understand this...
He could have let someone else play the TS and it cannot be detected. The NEXT time he plays a turnset (even 50 turns later) and makes a save, then they can detect that it appears as if he cheated earlier. Anyway, that's fine that he just played and lived with the consequences so we look clean.

That brings me to a problem. When the war broke out and I opened that save to browse it, I hit the enter key too. I quickly exited without looking at anything. I figured we'd be too busy discussing the war so I waited to bring up this topic. However, my TS is coming up so, if I understand the cheat dectector, I may not be able to play any more turns unless we report what happened and ask if I'm OK. I'm pretty sure any save I create from now on will show that I advanced that 1 turn. I'd probably have to re-install Civ4 to avoid it.

I can just back seat drive if you want...which is sad :( cus I really love playing a TS.
 
BLubmuz said:
MM so backwards is strange, we can give him something: remember to not plain gift, take a WM or some cash.
Click to expand...
Good point BLub. I'll give Civil Service first and ask for his WM and whatever gold he's got laying around.

BLubmuz said:
Worker: try to time the cottages with the Globe, we gain the 50% since we're building a wonder (even NW count for an industrious).
Click to expand...
This is another great point. I'll do my best.

BLubmuz said:
If you can target a better civ for music, well. Otherwise, trade with Louis.
Click to expand...
I might be able to get Music from someone else, but only Louis and George have enough gold to make the archer upgrade work right, so I'd like to go ahead with this trade.

BLubmuz said:
Don't stop the war: if we're not in danger, the longer it lasts, the more our relations improve.
Stop it only if we gain a valuable tech or a lot (and i mean no less than 500 gold) of money and if is KK to ask.
Click to expand...
Okay. Keep the war unless we can get, say, Gunpowder or 500 gold (or some combination like that)? Also, I like the idea of keeping the war because of my next idea.

WastinTime said:
I think we have to give Astron if they ask, especially Asoka. We need him. Astron is old news anyway.
Click to expand...
If Astronomy is old news now, then what about using it to bribe Asoka and/or Liz into this war with us? I don't know if it would still be possible (for either one), but I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a good move for us. For that matter, I wonder if we couldn't bribe George into joining us too? He probably doesn't like us enough though. :(

WastinTime said:
Since we have a deal with Cyrus (fish) we might as well open borders for the relations boost. Whether we have 1 deal or 2 with him doesn't increase the chances someone will ask to cancel deals.
Click to expand...
Excellent point. I'll do this. Also, I think I'm ready to change my vote in favor opening borders with George now too. I'm thinking it might have been a mistake to conclude that closing borders on him would work the same way it did in the test game when we closed borders with Khan and the other nasties. In any case, I think opening borders with George is more likely to help us from here on out than it is to hurt us.

EDIT: I just checked: In exchange for Astronomy, Asoka will DOW Kublai and give us about 300 gold plus his World Map. Liz and George don't like us enough to DOW anyone for anything.
 
WastinTime said:
I can just back seat drive if you want...which is sad :( cus I really love playing a TS.
Click to expand...
You should certainly PM Alan H before accepting any back seat role. I'm sure others have made the same mistake before. For that matter, I should probably PM him too, because at least twice now I've clicked on the wrong "last page" link in the forums and gotten the wrong team. I shut things down immediately after seeing the unfamiliar avatars, but I'm not sure how strict they are about such things. The dang text is so small on my screen I've learned I have to be very careful where I click on the Succession Game forum page.
 
Yes, let's OB with GW and Cyrus.
Are we already researching Physics? in this case we can give Astro to Asoka, he seems to be our best option for a PA.

Yes WT, PM to AlanH your hit-enter-thing.
If you got the autosave keep it, in case he asks to see it.
We'll probably solve this.
 
Hi guys, I'm still having a lot of exam parties, so I'll only be on occasionally for another couple days.
 
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