culdeus
Emperor
This is a good point. The open borders/closed borders could be a great advantage to us in this way.
SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
This is a good point. The open borders/closed borders could be a great advantage to us in this way.
You sound like you'll do a great job on our start Balthalion. I agree, no wheel/pottery. We can get to Alpha a lot faster than I thought. Animal Husbandry gets a nice discount if you get hunting first. I also agree with NO worker steal. I forgot how fragile warriors are when they're not Quechua. You're right again about just 1 warrior. We have 6 turns to kill before Fishing. We could get 2 warriors in that time (sacrificing some growth), but that was only if we needed the extra defense for a worker steal.
I my test game the worker came out just in time to start a Library, so that fit nicely. I wish we could start.
I my test game the worker came out just in time to start a Library, so that fit nicely. I wish we could start.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Damn I look away for 5 minutes and y'all got 41 posts in the thread. I'm still in Japan right now and will be really busy the rest of the week so put me at the end of the order.
I'll catch up on the thread and then post my thoughts.
Fifth Element was named such because we were team 5, and I had just watched the movie. I suggested it, and it stuck. So now you know... the rest of the story.
I'll catch up on the thread and then post my thoughts.
Fifth Element was named such because we were team 5, and I had just watched the movie. I suggested it, and it stuck. So now you know... the rest of the story.
Looks like I'm first.Should I work up a very explicit plan for us all to pull apart and reconfigure, or does the captain/team do that?
I think that's a good idea, since we will have a very small civ, we can quite easily work out the specifics before the turnset.
By the way, stopping after settling might be good, to factor in the rest of our BFC.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
oh well, we're 9 now!
I remember you that i posted the roster in the 3rd post in this thread.
Since we're 9 and it's normal speed i suggest to play 10-12 turns each.
Also we must enforce the 24/72 rule.
For new members:
- when a TS is completed you'll upload the save and post a TS report, complete with the Autolog (options-HoF1-anyname.txt-forum tags) to do this you'll copy the content of the .txt between the "spoil";
- next player has 24 hours to post a "got it" and the goals for his TS;
- after the goals are team-approved he got 48 hours to play and submit;
- if a player is busy or anything the best thing he can do is inform the team before his turn, so next player can know he's up.
One thing we must do for this game is planning our answers to the possible demands of the AI:
- do we'll have OB with anyone?
- how do we react if they ask for a tech/money/resource?
- how do we react if they ask to stop trading with someone?
this will be important especially if we'll go for Diplo, but also to ensure a peaceful game, if we want so.
I remember you that i posted the roster in the 3rd post in this thread.
Since we're 9 and it's normal speed i suggest to play 10-12 turns each.
Also we must enforce the 24/72 rule.
For new members:
- when a TS is completed you'll upload the save and post a TS report, complete with the Autolog (options-HoF1-anyname.txt-forum tags) to do this you'll copy the content of the .txt between the "spoil";
- next player has 24 hours to post a "got it" and the goals for his TS;
- after the goals are team-approved he got 48 hours to play and submit;
- if a player is busy or anything the best thing he can do is inform the team before his turn, so next player can know he's up.
One thing we must do for this game is planning our answers to the possible demands of the AI:
- do we'll have OB with anyone?
- how do we react if they ask for a tech/money/resource?
- how do we react if they ask to stop trading with someone?
this will be important especially if we'll go for Diplo, but also to ensure a peaceful game, if we want so.
What type of economy do we want to run by the way?
Farms + Specialists + settled Great Persons (works best with Pyramids/Representation)
Cottages (works best with Bureaucracy)
Normally, I'd pick a specialist economy in an OCC game, but on deity, where we can't be sure to get the Pyramids, I wonder if it's the best option.
Research:
Fishing - Hunting - Animal Husbandry - Writing - Alphabet
Builds:
Warrior - Work boat - Library
Will we complete Fishing in time to build the workboat?
Will we complete Writing in time to start a library?
Farms + Specialists + settled Great Persons (works best with Pyramids/Representation)
Cottages (works best with Bureaucracy)
Normally, I'd pick a specialist economy in an OCC game, but on deity, where we can't be sure to get the Pyramids, I wonder if it's the best option.
Research:
Fishing - Hunting - Animal Husbandry - Writing - Alphabet
Builds:
Warrior - Work boat - Library
Will we complete Fishing in time to build the workboat?
Will we complete Writing in time to start a library?
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
We have all this talk about getting to alphabet asap, but I'd like to talk about the mids. We're in a position which is not great for cottaging, but can support specialists early, and the mids will provide the basis for a solid tech start. The AI won't prioritise alpha, so imo we can safely get masonary before heading to alpha. What are the thoughts on the mids?
edit- xpost with df.
edit- xpost with df.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Okay, here is an idea for a game plan to beeline alphabet by turn 46 (popup window on turn 47). This is meant to be more of a draft idea about how to proceed rather than an "official" proposal about my set of turns (which I know won't go for more than 10 or 12 turns in any case -- with appropriate stop & check points along the way). Still, I thought it might be worth asking you all to test, tweak, and/or debunk the strategy below if you think it would be worth taking the time to do so.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I have little experience with Diety beyond the test game we're using now. Based on what I've tried and what I've read, I think that going for early wonders is probably a mistake, though I'm certainly open to being convinced if someone can show me how it might be made to work. I just can't see how we'll keep up in the tech race if we don't get to alphabet first (and earlier seems to be better).
One word of warning too… I’ve had trouble with early DOWs from Khan in our test game using this plan. Don’t know if it is something weird based on the test game or if more defensive units are required (or something else). All the data used and reported below was collected from playing GreatBeyond’s test map.
Summary:
Alphabet completes on Turn 46.
Tech path = Fishing, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Alphabet (Fishing is for workboats & crabs. Hunting is for improving and roading fur ASAP, & economizing on Animal Husbandry.)
Production = warrior, start warrior, Work Boat, finish warrior, Work Boat, warrior, start WB (for exploration), Library, finish Work Boat, (then worker? or maybe directly after library?)
Final Population = 4 (max happy cap, no whipping/slavery, no chopping/BW)
Trade goals turn 47 = Wheel, Archery, Mysticism
Trade goals turn 48 = Bronze Working, Masonry, Pottery, Polytheism, Sailing
Trade goals turn 49 = Iron Working (and/or perhaps try for a third party DOW)
Tiles Improved = 2 Crab Tiles (only)
The draft plan with turn by turn info is under the spoiler tag
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I have little experience with Diety beyond the test game we're using now. Based on what I've tried and what I've read, I think that going for early wonders is probably a mistake, though I'm certainly open to being convinced if someone can show me how it might be made to work. I just can't see how we'll keep up in the tech race if we don't get to alphabet first (and earlier seems to be better).
One word of warning too… I’ve had trouble with early DOWs from Khan in our test game using this plan. Don’t know if it is something weird based on the test game or if more defensive units are required (or something else). All the data used and reported below was collected from playing GreatBeyond’s test map.
Summary:
Alphabet completes on Turn 46.
Tech path = Fishing, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Alphabet (Fishing is for workboats & crabs. Hunting is for improving and roading fur ASAP, & economizing on Animal Husbandry.)
Production = warrior, start warrior, Work Boat, finish warrior, Work Boat, warrior, start WB (for exploration), Library, finish Work Boat, (then worker? or maybe directly after library?)
Final Population = 4 (max happy cap, no whipping/slavery, no chopping/BW)
Trade goals turn 47 = Wheel, Archery, Mysticism
Trade goals turn 48 = Bronze Working, Masonry, Pottery, Polytheism, Sailing
Trade goals turn 49 = Iron Working (and/or perhaps try for a third party DOW)
Tiles Improved = 2 Crab Tiles (only)
The draft plan with turn by turn info is under the spoiler tag
Spoiler :
Not much point in researching Masonry if we have no worker for a Quarry and we aren't going to start Pyramids. Turn 48 is plenty early for Masonry. We can put a mine on those resources until then.
There's no point in getting Hunting if you're not going to build a camp before Alphabet.
Warrior, WB, WB, Worker, Library seems best.
Specialist strategy: Bureaucracy is the holy grail of OCC. It's a no-brainer if you have gold/gems, but even with our start....We need much better food than we have and the city has to get much larger. We have no health resources for that and we'd have to keep an army at home to keep them happy. Worst of all, how do we build anything if we work farms/specialists?
I think the Pyramids will be nice paired with the Glib (but not essential). I don't see us working many specialists in the first 125 turns. You want to work scientists for a couple turns (before pyramids probably) to get the Academy, but then probably none until after Oxford. Next thing you know, you're trading for Constitution and Pyramids aren't so special any more.
There's no point in getting Hunting if you're not going to build a camp before Alphabet.
Warrior, WB, WB, Worker, Library seems best.
Specialist strategy: Bureaucracy is the holy grail of OCC. It's a no-brainer if you have gold/gems, but even with our start....We need much better food than we have and the city has to get much larger. We have no health resources for that and we'd have to keep an army at home to keep them happy. Worst of all, how do we build anything if we work farms/specialists?
I think the Pyramids will be nice paired with the Glib (but not essential). I don't see us working many specialists in the first 125 turns. You want to work scientists for a couple turns (before pyramids probably) to get the Academy, but then probably none until after Oxford. Next thing you know, you're trading for Constitution and Pyramids aren't so special any more.
culdeus
Emperor
Played a haphazard and mostly careless test game. Goal was to get Pyramids and GL and that happened without much effort as we are given practically free wonders. Though now I'm thinking of starting again and trying to get the parthenon. Pairing a mostly SE with lots of scientists and pyramids and it's GE points could prove to be a big plus. The AI also rarely, if ever, builds it. If we get a GA, so be it just bulb the sucker. Such is life.
I realize finally Great People will get slower and slower, but I could conceive of a major GP rush as a result of this.
Still just sort of playing around with stuff. I'm trying to shake the dust off my vanilla skills at the same time.
I realize finally Great People will get slower and slower, but I could conceive of a major GP rush as a result of this.
Still just sort of playing around with stuff. I'm trying to shake the dust off my vanilla skills at the same time.
I have new start plan. This gets us Alphabet in 44. And, more importantly, we are half way to our Academy by then. Just 9 turns more for it. This earlier Alpha means fewer AI will have Writing. That's the best tech to trade. I rarely, if ever, trade Alpha right away.
Research : Fishing, AH, Writing, Alpha
Build : Warrior, WB, WB, Warrior, Library, Worker
Starve the city to get the Library ASAP (turn 36?).
Work 2 crab, 2 scientist.
We could probably get Alpha in 43 if we don't starve for earlier Lib. But then we get a later academy.
Research : Fishing, AH, Writing, Alpha
Build : Warrior, WB, WB, Warrior, Library, Worker
Starve the city to get the Library ASAP (turn 36?).
Work 2 crab, 2 scientist.
We could probably get Alpha in 43 if we don't starve for earlier Lib. But then we get a later academy.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Nice thread guys, we're truly goin in deep.
Some more tests and we can have a well defined strategy.
If we try Diplo GArtists are not so bad: surely after radio 2 of them can LB MM, and perhaps even radio after Elec.
It's a beeline, we can resarch all the lower side of the F6 and try to trade for the upper.
Perhaps after the worker a WB to explore?
Some more tests and we can have a well defined strategy.
If we try Diplo GArtists are not so bad: surely after radio 2 of them can LB MM, and perhaps even radio after Elec.
It's a beeline, we can resarch all the lower side of the F6 and try to trade for the upper.
Perhaps after the worker a WB to explore?
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Yeah, you're right. It's just that doing the same path without hunting only took one or two turns more.
This sounds great. I'd love to get the Pyramids if we can, but what turn were you able to start trading tech with the AI? Was there any trade leverage left to go with?
Sounds great! I'll run it today and see how badly I can mess it up.
One question though. How do you assign scientists to work the library with a population under 5? I don't get the specialist buttons on my city screen until I hit pop 5 (or am I missing something?).Fine by me. This is the kind of stuff I just don't have any experience with (although I think I remember reading about you and jesusin disputing the point somewhere...
) Two questions though: Will trading only writing be enough to get us all the techs we need (like BW, Wheel, Masonry, Hunting, & maybe ones we could really use like Sailing & Archery too)? Also, How long is it possible to wait on trading Alphabet and still have some "buying power" left? (Or do you never trade it?)Yeah, I know how you feel. I think I'm trying to save myself from getting embarrassed by maybe being a little too detailed. (It's probably hopeless though, because with more details on the table there are just far more chances to reveal my screw-ups!
) On the other hand, I guess that is what this thread is supposed to be all about. 
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Ah yes, but "deep into what" is what I sometimes worry about.
(j/k) I agree that Diplo is probably our best shot. This ought to be fun... I've never done a diplomatic victory before!
Hopefully lots of firsts this game! 
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I'll look again when I play today. How come the buttons don't appear on the specialist panel of the city screen for me? Is there some other way to assign pop to be scientists, or am I just confused about this? Let me try again and make sure...
I get that too sometimes. I figured it was a bug. Go to Options and toggle the specialist stacker. Then you can assign scientists.
I trade alpha once there are a couple things worthy out there, like math, monarchy, IW. What we can get for writing will depend a lot on who we meet. Normally I can get all that stuff you mentioned with a pack of friendly AI. On Diety, no one will trade BW for Writing alone, you need to sweeten the deal with Fishing or Myst, etc. We need to meet as many AI as possible by turn 45. Once borders open, we need to explore.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
It worked - Thanks! I had to uncheck the specialist stacker. All this time I've been wondering why my first GS took so long to get.
Okay,RL is knocking on my door again, but I had some success with testing WastinTime's new start plan. I'll try to attach jpgs of my notes, but here is a quick summary too:
1- got alphabet on turn 45 (I'm sure WT could get it on 44)
2- snuck extra warrior into BO: war-WB-WB-war-war-Library (no delay on Lib)
3- Great Scientist/Academy on turn 56
4- good trade results (except only two AI still needed writing? What's up with that? In some of my other tests there were still 4 AI who needed it as late as turn 48.
5- Pyramids built in faraway land on turn 54.
(Our worker is barely out of diapers by turn 54.)6- Trades for writing on Turn 46: Wheel, Hunting; on Turn 47: Archery (alternative choices offered were Mysticism or Pottery)
7- Trades for alphabet on Turn 56: BW, Myst, Masonry; on Turn 57: Iron Working, Sailing; on Turn 59: Polytheism, Meditation; on Turn 60: Pottery; on Turn 64: Math
Any thoughts?
KEY to the tables below:
GF = Grassland Forest Tile (F= Food, H= Hammers, C= Commerce)
PHF = Plains Hill Forest Tile
PF = Plains Forest Tile
FIDL = Founded in distant land
BIFL = Built in faraway land
Attachments changed to more readable format and moved Here
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I guess that if want Pyramids we must change the res. path, and have the worker out right after the 2 WB.
If we think we can renounce to it (or that we have no chance to build them) we can follow the proposed path, and try the GLib.
If we think we can renounce to it (or that we have no chance to build them) we can follow the proposed path, and try the GLib.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Wow... some great analysis has been done here. I think our recruiters deserve a bonus for this game.
I'm not sure I could add anything more substantial to the conversation than what's already been said. In general, given the OCC conditions, the fact that Qin is industrious, and the wonderful resources we've been given at the start, I lean heavily towards wonder spam and a SE economy. Pyramids, Parthenon, and the Great Library would be a boon to us, and the culture will help us push our OCC borders to try to snap off more resources which I'm willing to bet will lie just outside "average" borders, knowing our intrepid map-makers.
With that, we should be able to hold our own in tech, and cultivate some friendly bulldogs to do our fighting for us, preferably by proxy as opposed to us getting directly involved in a war.
EDIT: OK, I had a crack at the test game. I managed to build the pyramids, but missed the Parthenon and the GL by a few turns each. Probably if I had sacrificed a few more forests and used the whip I might have been able to build them.
I was able to get to Alpha first, and trade it around for near tech parity, but quickly slipped behind again.
I managed to hang in until 1912, and was working my way toward a PA with Cyrus, which might have enabled a win... but the Franco-Russian PA that was currently leading ended that very quickly by attacking me with far numerically and technologically superior troops in 1911. I think that I should have gone on the offensive with some early warfare before I got too far behind in tech to compete, but I was trying for a peaceful victory.
Anyway, I'm thinking that with careful play this is certainly a winnable game, especially with the team we have.
I'm not sure I could add anything more substantial to the conversation than what's already been said. In general, given the OCC conditions, the fact that Qin is industrious, and the wonderful resources we've been given at the start, I lean heavily towards wonder spam and a SE economy. Pyramids, Parthenon, and the Great Library would be a boon to us, and the culture will help us push our OCC borders to try to snap off more resources which I'm willing to bet will lie just outside "average" borders, knowing our intrepid map-makers.
With that, we should be able to hold our own in tech, and cultivate some friendly bulldogs to do our fighting for us, preferably by proxy as opposed to us getting directly involved in a war.
EDIT: OK, I had a crack at the test game. I managed to build the pyramids, but missed the Parthenon and the GL by a few turns each. Probably if I had sacrificed a few more forests and used the whip I might have been able to build them.
I was able to get to Alpha first, and trade it around for near tech parity, but quickly slipped behind again.
I managed to hang in until 1912, and was working my way toward a PA with Cyrus, which might have enabled a win... but the Franco-Russian PA that was currently leading ended that very quickly by attacking me with far numerically and technologically superior troops in 1911. I think that I should have gone on the offensive with some early warfare before I got too far behind in tech to compete, but I was trying for a peaceful victory.
Anyway, I'm thinking that with careful play this is certainly a winnable game, especially with the team we have.
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