SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

No, 1 more turn with fur, then 5 turns on stone will get the library out.

Hmm... What am I missing?

Production: (start = 21 of 90 for Library)
Turn 36: 21+7=28
Turn 37: 28+12=40
Turn 38: 40+12=52
Turn 39: 52+12=64
Turn 40: 64+12=76
Turn 41: 76+12=88 (Library needs 90)
Turn 42:

Tiles Worked by Turn:
Turn 36: Work 2 Crabs, Fur, Marble (11-8=+2F, +7H, +20C)
Turn 37-41: Work 2 Crabs, Marble, & Stone (10-8=+2, +12, +15)

Should we work the Fur instead of one of the crabs on Turn 36? It would starve the city a little, but our peasants could take it.

 

[WastinTime]

fur + marble + city = 9 hammer (not 7)

 

[greatbeyond]

@ Greatbeyond and WastinTime:
to post the autolog at the end of your TS will be appreciated, remember to use the ".txt" extension and to use the "forum tags" option under the HoF1 tab.
Dammit i don't even know how many turns you played (well, i do, roughly)

My autolog is posted in #224. I know there isn't much, but that was how the TS went.

10 turns

 

[MacBalt]

fur + marble + city = 9 hammer (not 7)

Plan #3 Bottom Line (finish turn/pop-up turn):
Library on 41/42
Alphabet on 46/47
Great Scientist projected for Turn 59.

Duh Details:

Spoiler :

Population = 4

Important Tiles:
City: +2F, +2H, +1C (plus Palace = +8C)
Crab: +4F, +3C
Fur: +1F, +2H, +5C
Marble Mine: +5H
Stone Mine: +5H
Sheep: +5F, +2H, +1C
Deer: +4F, +2H

Tiles Worked by Turn:
Turn 36: Work 2 Crabs, Fur, & Marble (11-8=+3, +9, +20)
Turn 37-41: Work 2 Crabs, Marble, & Stone (10-8=+2, +12, +15)
Turn 42-45: Work 2 Crabs & 2 Scientists (10-8=+2, +2, +15, +6)
Turn 46-50: Work Crab, Marble, & 2 Scientists (6-8=-2, +7, +12, +6)

Food: (start = 3 of 28 for Pop 5 [but 4 is happy cap]):
Turn 36: 3+3=6
Turn 37: 6+2=8
Turn 38: 8+2=10
Turn 39: 10+2=12
Turn 40: 12+2=14
Turn 41: 14+2=16
Turn 42: 16+3=19
Turn 43: 19+2=21
Turn 44: 21+2=23
Turn 45: 23+2=25
Turn 46: 25-2=23 (starvation)
Turn 47: 23-2=21 (starvation)
Turn 48: 21-2=19 (starvation)
Turn 49: 19-2=17 (starvation)
Turn 50: 17-2=15 (starvation)

Production: (start = 21 of 90 for Library)
Turn 36: 21+9=30
Turn 37: 30+12=42
Turn 38: 42+12=54
Turn 39: 54+12=66
Turn 40: 66+12=78
Turn 41: 78+12=90 Library Complete
Turn 42: 0+2=2 (overflow = 0; Build __Barracks_or_ Warrior?__)
Turn 43: 2+2=4
Turn 44: 4+2=6
Turn 45: 6+2=8
Turn 46: 8+7=15
Turn 47: 15+7=22
Turn 48: 22+7=29
Turn 49: 29+7=36
Turn 50: 36+7=43

Calculation of Research (Beakers Per Turn):
Equation: ((#*%sci) + #[from specialists] + 1) * (building modifier) * (prerequisite modifier) = BPT
Turn 36: 20C @ 100% sci = 20B + 0B +1 = 21 * 1.00 = 21 * 1.2 = 25 BPT
Turn 37: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 38: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 39: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 40: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 41: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 42: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 43: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 44: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 45: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 46: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 47: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 48: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 49: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 50: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT

Research: (start = 156 of 429 for Alphabet)
Turn 36: 156+25=181
Turn 37: 181+19=200
Turn 38: 200+19=219
Turn 39: 219+19=238
Turn 40: 238+19=257
Turn 41: 257+19=276
Turn 42: 276+32=308
Turn 43: 308+32=340
Turn 44: 340+32=372
Turn 45: 372+32=404
Turn 46: 404+27=431 Alphabet Complete
Turn 47: 2+27=29 (overflow = 2; Study Polytheism)
Turn 48: 29+27=56
Turn 49: 56+27=83
Turn 50: 83+27=110

 

[MacBalt]

More trouble. It's Alex! My impression of him is that he attacks if you have a religion.

Got to thinking... If this is true then maybe we should find a way to fix up Alex with Izzy. That would be a blind date almost certain to end in fireworks.

 

[BLubmuz]

My autolog is posted in #224. I know there isn't much, but that was how the TS went.
10 turns

That is enough, since your TS was the 2nd one and thus pretty eventless, but it's NOT the autolog, is the player log you get when you submit. I'm talkin't about the autolog you set up in the options/HoF1.

Comments about my plan for next TS?
Of course i was forgetting the max hammers thing for the quick library.
There's a problem in running the 2 scientist ntil we'll pop the one for the Academy: we'll loose our production, and we need a barracks, IMHO.

Suggestions?

I'm nervous about all that crowd of Deity AIs around.

I don't see much Alex vs. Izzy also HC is s good SoaB.
Also, if Alex lacks copper he's not so aggressive.
hmm, Toku vs. Izzy... nice.
IMHO is important to see what resources an AI has, and this is why i suggested OB with anyone.
Looking at the SS posted by Sweeta, Alex is neutral with everyone, so we can safely sign an OB and in case cancel it after 10 turns.
The only 2 AIs in bad relations with the others are the buddist ones, Fred and Izzy, no OB with them (pity we'll loose the chance to scout east), nor tech trading, if possible.

Please note that no one has OB with anyone!
Some way to speed up Alpha even at the expenses of delay the library?
Thoughts, particularly WT?

Anybody knows why the "0" sometimes is white, or blue, or purple? why a damn 0 can't simply be white?

 

[WastinTime]

Plan #3 Bottom Line (finish turn/pop-up turn):
Library on 41/42
Alphabet on 46/47

I was using this notation too, but let's stop it cus it's confusing. The finish turn is not important. Only the "pop-up turn" as you call it, or the finished turn as I'd call it. It'd be, Library 42, Alpha 47. The turn you have a library, and the turn you can trade tech.

 

[culdeus]

Is this what you want?

Helpful, but the "glance" screen tells more.

 

[culdeus]

Please note that no one has OB with anyone!
Some way to speed up Alpha even at the expenses of delay the library?
Thoughts, particularly WT?

This is interesting. Gives hope we can trade writing with tons of the AI.

 

[MacBalt]

I was using this notation too, but let's stop it cus it's confusing. The finish turn is not important. Only the "pop-up turn" as you call it, or the finished turn as I'd call it. It'd be, Library 42, Alpha 47. The turn you have a library, and the turn you can trade tech.

That will be fine with me, but it is going to get confusing again once we start having to rely more on reading posted copies of the Autolog, because the Autolog uses/notes the first date as the "completed" date. There doesn't seem to be any good way to do it. Maybe we could just use the second date and refer to it as the "Ready on ##" or "Ready Date?"

Helpful, but the "glance" screen tells more.

Ha! That's what I would have thought, but since Sweetaschon already posted the "Glance" screen here. , I wasn't exactly sure what you wanted.

 

[WastinTime]

No reason to try rush alphabet 1 turn early and delay the library. Library is probably the fastest way to Alpha anyway. A slightly later alphabet might get Poly/med in trades. Those don't always come so early. We can even get Priesthood sometimes. Both are a lot easier if we find Mansa.

We really want to work those scientists now, when we don't need any food, but we could run 1 scientist and 1 mine just until we feel safer. The academy would be late, but we'd be alive.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Feel safer? I'll feel safer when we have a PA. Some of us may disagree, but the best way to ward off an AI attack, imo, apart from our diplomatic dance, is increasing power. A couple of units and a barracks will help, but only slowly. Tech trading always gives the best return, so I think we should work 2 scientists 'til academy.

In any case, I'm only playing until Alphabet, and we all seem agreed on Balthalion's amended plan, so I'll get onto it.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Scratch that, I'll be patient and wait. I will play tonight, in 11 hrsish, or perhaps tomorrow morning, in 21 hrsish.

Just looking at the Unusual Suspects graph....WTH? The gradient of the line averages the score over any particular TS, so their jump implies 2 things to me:
1. They traded everything around.
2. The vertical line indicates that they uploaded again on the same turn, which is illegal (in the sense that AlanH doesn't like it), but I suppose that it could be just a 1 turn set. Why? Just to screw with the other teams heads, I imagine.

 

[MacBalt]

Comments about my plan for next TS?
Of course i was forgetting the max hammers thing for the quick library.
There's a problem in running the 2 scientist ntil we'll pop the one for the Academy: we'll loose our production, and we need a barracks, IMHO.

Suggestions?

No reason to try rush alphabet 1 turn early and delay the library. Library is probably the fastest way to Alpha anyway. A slightly later alphabet might get Poly/med in trades. Those don't always come so early. We can even get Priesthood sometimes. Both are a lot easier if we find Mansa.

We really want to work those scientists now, when we don't need any food, but we could run 1 scientist and 1 mine just until we feel safer. The academy would be late, but we'd be alive.

Feel safer? I'll feel safer when we have a PA. Some of us may disagree, but the best way to ward off an AI attack, imo, apart from our diplomatic dance, is increasing power. A couple of units and a barracks will help, but only slowly. Tech trading always gives the best return, so I think we should work 2 scientists 'til academy.

I think delaying the Library would be a mistake. Sweetacshon says it best when he talks about trading always giving the best return. I agree. According to the Demographics Article, Archery is the power graph equivalent of six warriors -- and 1.5 times the "power" value of a barracks. In four or five turns we can reasonably expect to get not only Archery, but Bronze Working (8 warriors or 2 barracks), Sailing (2 warriors or 0.5 barracks), The Wheel (4 warriors or 1 barracks), and maybe even Iron Working (10 warriors or 2.5 barracks) and Mathematics (6 warriors or 1.5 barracks) soon enough. Even an axeman is only "worth" the equivalent of 2 warriors (0.5 barracks) by the way the game calculates power. This is what makes me think that we'll "look" very powerful after only a few rounds of trading -- powerful enough, I think, to discourage most enemies from DOWing us so long as they can't cross our borders to see how naked we really are. It may be just wishful thinking, but it is the best explanation I can think of for what happened repeatedly in our test game experiments. Closing borders to aggressive enemies and successfully making it past the first few rounds of post-alphabet trading = no DOWs.

Now I just hope it really works in this game the way it did in the test games.

 

[MacBalt]

Just looking at the Unusual Suspects graph....WTH? The gradient of the line averages the score over any particular TS, so their jump implies 2 things to me:
1. They traded everything around.
2. The vertical line indicates that they uploaded again on the same turn, which is illegal (in the sense that AlanH doesn't like it), but I suppose that it could be just a 1 turn set. Why? Just to screw with the other teams heads, I imagine.

I bet they stopped in the middle of a turn to discuss their options for a second-round of trading in the same turn. If so, then I think that would be good for us as they are doing on turn sixty or so what we hope to be doing at around turn 47-50. It also suggests that Washington didn't go postal on them before turn 60, which is a nice thing to see.

I noticed something else from the culture graph too. Trash Team and Unusual Suspects are the only teams that have built any new culture-producing buildings so far. Smirks, Xteam, & Geezers have all made it up to about turn 45 or so without building a library. Our library is due to be ready on turn 42. At the very least, our library will be a few turns faster, but I'm wondering if they didn't go another route altogether. Our "Pyramids Game" test finished the build on -- guess what? -- turn 47. Maybe they stopped where they did because they didn't want to advertise their new wonder too quickly? If so, I think they are in for a rough game. Another possibility might be that they followed a "Plan A" route direct to Alphabet and stopped just before the beginning of the trade rounds (but even that route should show a library at about turn 40 or so).

Of course, I really don't know what I'm talking about, but it is fun to indulge in wild speculation every now and then!

 

[dutchfire]

The Unusual Suspects uploaded on turn 60 and 62 according to the list of saves.
Trash Team seems to have had 3 cpt between turn 30 and 40. A very early library?

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, so i refresh the goals for Sweeta's TS:
- go in the F4 and cancel OB with Fred!
- complete library, as quick as possible, while working the tiles that give us the highest possible commerce (but the main goal is the library, i think Balth plan),
- once library is complete, put scientists at work, while continue growing the city, stopping right before the happy cap (again Balth plan)
- start barracks
- you can also sign an OB with Alex, just to scout his land: this can also bring us to discover new Civs West, and since we got only a scouting unit we must choose a direction, and west looks good like East, but it gives us knowlegde of Alex's land.
- play until Alpha is in, post a SS for the possible trades so we can discuss.

What we start after Alpha? Literature wants Poly, and it comes in the 2nd round, if we're lucky.

It comes in mind that you can also try to see how trades can go, and report your attempts, but not make actual trades.
If you manage to play tonight, we got an entire day to discuss, for the time zones.

Also, i propose to shorten our TSs, say 7-9 turns: we're on normal speed, and after Alpha a lot of things can happen in a TS.
I plan to play my TS (i've not seen negative comments, so i'm up after Sweeta) in 2 rounds, just to inform you about the trades and resources (hopefully we can obtain BW, but not for writing only, i think i must wait the 2nd round to add something to it).

Sure like hell, no trades for Alpha if not Math or IW.

Any comments, corrections, am i forgetting something?

 

[culdeus]

That will be fine with me, but it is going to get confusing again once we start having to rely more on reading posted copies of the Autolog, because the Autolog uses/notes the first date as the "completed" date. There doesn't seem to be any good way to do it. Maybe we could just use the second date and refer to it as the "Ready on ##" or "Ready Date?"

Ha! That's what I would have thought, but since Sweetaschon already posted the "Glance" screen here. , I wasn't exactly sure what you wanted.

Ok, well this means that the absolute A#1 priority right now is canceling OB with Fredrick.

This must happen at the first available opportunity.

For the time being the other OBs seem to be ok, but I wouldn't cry if they all went away.

 

[BLubmuz]

Agreed!
I was missing we got it.
Sweeta, first thing to do is go in the F4 and cancel OB with Fred!
(i updated my #297, also)

 

[WastinTime]

We can't cancel OB for until the 10 turns is up. Why are you all afraid of Fred anyway?

We're already heading east, so we should explore fred and farther east, and then north from there. Alex is most likely on the coast and there won't be anyone to find over there (maybe). This is Tiny Continents -- there has to be an ocean somewhere, so looking at our land and Liz, we seem to be on the upper-west side.

You mentioned resource trades in the 2nd turnset. Sweeta, you need to look for those now--every turn. Liz is already connected and could have something for our crab any time.