SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[Merum]

Wow, that's a great turnset, blub. Wonderful to see iron and copper in our territory!

We're in great shape now to push this game hard. We do need to build some military asap, I think. A single warrior is not going to keep us safe for long. Fortunately we have neutral or positive relations with everybody to this point, and Asoka is pleased with us.

Looks like we're starting to win the culture war on the fur square, and with the Academy and GL in place, we should overtake it easily.

Since we're on copper, and axes are better than swords for defense, I think we should pre-chop a forest for the Glib. What do you all think?

 

[BLubmuz]

thanks Merum
the axe is at 1 turn to completion, if necessary.
I prefer to build barracks, especially now that marble gives us 3 gold, and have it (the axe) with 1 promotion avaible from the start... not great, but better than nothing.
Yes, i agree: the worker will be avaiable next turn, he can go in the forest W of Beijing, build a road (anyway we need it), then chop, in the hope that we can trade for Math before he finish to chop (or in case, stop the chop to 1 turn to completion).
For now Math is monopoly of Asoka, but this won't last for long.

Now we need also a plan about demands: i accepted the one from Alex, just to be safe, and it was a minor tech, but we must be prepared: i don't like to give away Alpha or any other tech for nothing but our (supposed) safety.
Also, we probably need to close some OB.
I was forgetting that HC asked for an OB, i gently ignored it.

We must remember also that in Vanilla HC is aggressive!

 

[WastinTime]

This is more fun than I expected. I can't wait to see the save.

I think we should gift a tech or two to Toku ASAP to get him off Annoyed. He's always so backward anyway. Trade w/ enemies shouldn't affect us yet.
EDIT: Well, that's something to consider in the future, but Toku already forgot he was mad at us.

Warrior need to head home for HerditaryRule happiness.

Good guess on KK.

Excellent work on Sailing. That's a boost for research, but even better, we should be able to trade with almost everyone. That gold flip really hurts. I hate to point this out, but I'm thinking we could have had that gold for at least 10 turns if we locked in the trade before the flip

Asoka discovered Jud/Mono and he will trade it and Priesthood! We want Preisthood more than mono, get PH now cus CoL -> CivilService.

We've almost got our Fur (56%) back.

2 Turns til we start GLib. 4 turns Academy pops out and we can really start building by cutting both scientists.

We have got to be the only SG team that didn't get a religion yet! We needed that 1 culture so bad.
P.S. The panther has been replaced by my Canine Companion puppy (I always had avatars off before.)

 

[WastinTime]

the axe is at 1 turn to completion, if necessary.
Yes, i agree: the worker will be avaiable next turn, he can go in the forest W of Beijing, build a road (anyway we need it), then chop

Since we will be building GLib in 2 turns, we should finish the Axe to increase our power (deter attacks). I don't think we pay maintanence yet.

We want to chop the forest EAST of Berlin (on river) first. Actually, that's not correct, we should Cottage it directly, that way the forest won't go down for 7 turns. It gives us more time to get math.

 

[BLubmuz]

That cottage will be pillaged if we'll be attacked, but it's the best option we have: 3 gold are a great boost.
Have you noticed how the deers are already roaded? thanks Wash, i suppose.
Yes 4 turns to the GS, and the academy.
If not for "power graph" reasons i'll wait to build that axe after barracks, even after the GLib, but i stay on your opinion if you think it's better to have him right now.
Asoka is greedy: for IW he gives us only PH!!! even if i add pottery he does not add Mono! I guess he think we're too advanced, or he's at a good point in researching it.
If you wanna go straight to CS, we need to decide about the trade with Asoka before Sabre begins his TS.
Anyway, IW for PH is a bit much: i think we can invest 3 turns on it, wait to see if someone else would start trding it, there're 3 more AIs already with PH: usually after the oracle they throw it away.

Last but not least, Wash has no copper: or he's got iron, or he lacks metals

 

[culdeus]

Last but not least, Wash has no copper: or he's got iron, or he lacks metals

This does not surprise me in the least given the setup our FC has that they'd make this Deity-- . First AI to declare on Washington becomes our leading PA candidate.

 

[WastinTime]

Have you noticed how the deers are already roaded?

If not for "power graph" reasons i'll wait to build that axe after barracks, even after the GLib, but i stay on your opinion if you think it's better to have him right now.

If you wanna go straight to CS, we need to decide about the trade with Asoka before Sabre begins his TS.

I reported Wash on the deer during my TS.

The "power graph" concerns were not mine, but I'm agreeing with the others that advised us to watch our power level. We should probably get it up with one Axe since the Glib/barracks will take so long.

Asoka obviously will finish IW in a couple turns, so he's not really getting a deal. We don't care if we save him those turns, we want that free PH. Get it now! There are very few traders left. He may not trade at all next turn.

 

[MacBalt]

WAAAAAYYYY TO GOOO BBBLLLLUUUBBBB!!!!

What a sweet turnset! Nice trading too! Hope we can get Math for alpha soon too. Our graph looks satisfyingly inclined toward vertical -- I expected the power one to look good, but the BW, Arch, & IW all in one go really put it out of sight, no?

Murky will find a way to top us I'm sure, but it looks like maybe we'll get their attention, at least. Can't figure what Xteam is doing. The culture graph makes it look like a wonder is involved, but power is registering on the graphs too. Maybe an early wonder plus a bunch of trades? Interesting... If a wonder is involved, then I don't see how they are going to keep the tech race up for long. Their culture graph makes it look like an early academy was not involved??

Looks like it is my turn to catch up on reading posts. I'm away from home again until Wednesday. Can someone help satisfy my craving for details by supplying a few screenshots? I'd love to see any newly explored territories, find out where the iron is (a more specific verbal discription of this would be fine), and have a copy of the glance and resource screens. Thanks!

 

[Sabre]

Very nice turnset! That power graph truly is a thing of beauty.

I have the save and I'll be able to play either tomorrow or Wednesday afternoon. This will give us some time to discuss our options/pad our post count.

Balthalion - I'll see what I can do about getting you some shots. I need to reacquaint myself with the CF image hosting again anyway.

edit - I don't see the old upload file link so I'll just use some personal hosting space I've got.

 

[MacBalt]

The avoid growth button does indeed work. The city just stops growing at 1 turn before growth, without regard to the food produced. I usually don't use this, because I have other tiles I can work for gain, but in this case it may make sense, if we don't have a use for the hammers we gain using the "starvation method".

Hmmm... Is there ever not a use for the hammers we would gain using the starvation method? If we lose those hammers when we engage the avoid growth button then I don't think I'd see any point using it -- except maybe to avoid a lot of unnecessary MM when playing at lower levels of difficulty.

In cases where I'm not going for diplo, I try to build the UN anyway, in the hopes of controlling the vote and not getting back-doored by somebody else. This may not be practical in this situation, but somebody else controlling it worries me a bit.

Yeah, me too... but not too much given this game's settings. Still...

I'm wondering if a diplomatic victory would be more possible if we were to be proactive about "cultivating" the right conditions. Maybe we could selectively "weed" our continent of the less cooperative civs in such a way as to leave one universally unpopular civ larger than any of the ones in our "good guy" club. (Isabella comes to mind as a suitable badgirl to set up in this way.) The civs on the other content(s?) look interesting too:

1. Mansa Musa
2. Hatshepsut
3. Cyrus
4. Saladin
5. Montezuma
6. Peter or Catherine
7. Louis XIV or Napoleon

I'll bet Monty and either Napo or Peter are already making a nuisance of themselves over there. Maybe we could buddy up with their targets to get more votes in our column?

I don't know much about Diplomatic wins. Would it help to have a hated opponent or are all the votes cast solely on the basis of how much the other civs like us?

 

[MacBalt]

There are some pretty late libraries getting built.

Yes... and (unless we are dealt an unlucky DOW) I suspect we could count them to determine a FLOOR function for our worst possible place in the standings at the end of this game.
EDIT: Well, that didn't really make sense now that I think about it, but you get the idea.

I think we should pre-chop a forest for the Glib. What do you all think?

Yes, please.
EDIT: The straight to cottage idea from WT is better tho... (Except I think we could do it on the tile next to Beijing instead of going all the way to Berlin! )

Now we need also a plan about demands: i accepted the one from Alex, just to be safe, and it was a minor tech, but we must be prepared: i don't like to give away Alpha or any other tech for nothing but our (supposed) safety.
Also, we probably need to close some OB.
I was forgetting that HC asked for an OB, i gently ignored it.

We must remember also that in Vanilla HC is aggressive!

It was smart to accept that demand from Alex, I think. Who cares about Poly, really? I'm just glad he didn't ask for Alpha. Which borders might we close? Are we going to have trouble getting our explorer home with HC's border closed now? I'm curious about Asoka's territory if we can get our warrior over there and he has nothing better to do.

EDIT (add):

If you wanna go straight to CS, we need to decide about the trade with Asoka before Sabre begins his TS.

Still after Lit and the GL tho, right?

 

[Sabre]

Beijing Local:



Glance Screen:



Resource Screen:



How's that work out?

 

[MacBalt]

Great! Thanks Sabre!

EDIT #1: Hey, I don't suppose you could mouse over the silver hill sometime and tell me what the culture % is there? (No rush on this... Frustrating when I try to do it on a screenshot tho... )

EDIT #2: Not much of interest on the resource screen. Bet we have no trouble getting happy resources later in the game when we don't need them. Is it too early to start thinking about a work boat for the whale after optics? (EDIT: Yes! )

EDIT #3: Hmm... +2 with Alex, eh? I still don't trust the SOB. Still, I wonder if it might become possible to coax him into DOWing HC? Then we could tag-team him with the other Hindus to initiate our "good guy" club, as it doesn't look like anybody else likes Alex much either. (...After waiting a suitable number of turns to let themselves beat each other up for a while, of course.)

EDIT #4: Does anyone know why the numbers on the glance screen are different colors? There appear to be pluses and minuses in all three colors. Is that just meant to perplex those of us who are a little too, uh, detail-oriented, or is it meant to be meaningful in some totally opague way?

EDIT #5: I'm curious to see what units George has stacked in New York. If our worker is just going to the Grassland/River/Forest tile anyway, can we have him swing through the fur first to check? It might be a bit unnerving, but I think it would be worth knowing -- especially since it won't cost us anything to get that information.

 

[WastinTime]

EDIT #4: Does anyone know why the numbers on the glance screen are different colors? There appear to be pluses and minuses in all three colors. Is that just meant to perplex those of us who are a little too, uh, detail-oriented, or is it meant to be meaningful in some totally opague way?

blue= Pleased
white = cautious
purple=annoyed

 

[MacBalt]

blue= Pleased
white = cautious
purple=annoyed

So George is at +4 with Toku, but still annoyed at him? Are they married?

EDIT: Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. They are both at +4 with each other, but George(left)-Toku(top) is +4 purple while Toku(left)-George(top) is white. I'm guessing that means someone recently refused the other one's demand (or something like that). So, if we follow the pattern based on Qin being on the left, it is Toku that is annoyed at George, right?

I take it red would mean furious then? I'd better read up on this. Anyone know a good article on it?

 

[Sweetacshon]

So George is at +4 with Toku, but still annoyed at him? Are they married?

EDIT: Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. They are both at +4 with each other, but George(left)-Toku(top) is +4 purple while Toku(left)-George(top) is white. I'm guessing that means someone recently refused the other one's demand (or something like that). So, if we follow the pattern based on Qin being on the left, it is Toku that is annoyed at George, right?

I take it red would mean furious then? I'd better read up on this. Anyone know a good article on it?

Also, green is friendly. I don't know of any article, per se, but just hover your mouse over any number you are interested in, and it'll tell you all you need to know.

I've got to say, it's hard to get into the conversation when each new day when I first check there is 25 new posts. Anyway, well traded, BLubmuz! I also advocate heading straight to CS now, as I feel bureau is the next big goal. By all means trade IW for PH... Asoka loves us already, and is a prime candidate for a long term partner, and, as already stated, he is probably researching it himself. I like the idea of an Alex dogpile for diplo +s, it's something to check periodically, and if someone is willing to do it, we should pause the game and discuss it.

Still no extra happies! Oh well, just something we have to live with for now, just like we'll be living with unhealthiness later. On this, what are everyone's thoughts on building a forge, or other unhealthy buildings for that matter? Add to that the keeping of forests, and in fact, In my tests I made farms to the east of the city, finding growth and scientists more useful than cottages.

 

[BLubmuz]

We can talk about long term strategies later, say after the first round of TSs.
For now i'm still worried by the Happiness, and i invite you to consider a detour on Drama, to crank out a theather and the Globe, and forget this problem once and for all.
I'm not concerned by health: we got all the sea resources (already or right after borders will expand), and with an harbor we'll be in good shape for awhile. Also, with the Globe we can trade our luxuries for healthy resources.
After the Academy we can know how much a detour on Drama will cost us, but if someone can put together a test game it can be useful.

Goals for next TS (proposal to be edited following your opinions):
- trade IW to Asoka for Priesthood, it's a sh*t, but do it!,
- keep that "avoid growth" on to avoid accidental growth, but still MM the city until the GS will pop,
- build the academy,
- finish the axe, then barracks until Literature comes on line
- to build the GLib, use the most hammer-rich tiles, while keep the city at 4, forget the specialists (after the GS will pop),
- i agree to work the GLforest E of the river, but i'm not sure about the cottage: if we run a SE perhaps a farm can be better.

 

[Sweetacshon]

OK, then the main questions before the next turnset are:
1. Drama or straight to CS?
2. Finalise the pecking order for demands.

4 pages back (if you can believe that?!!), Merum presented (with unknowns from Balthalion):

The pecking order for demands, as I see it right now:

b 0 Frederick OB
h 0 George OB
b 0 Julius OB
b 1 KK
j 2 Alex/
h 1 Asoka (Tie) OB
h 0 HC
h 0 Toku
h 1 Elizabeth OB
b 0 Izzy

1. Mansa Musa
2. Hatshepsut
3. Cyrus
4. Saladin
5. Montezuma
6. Peter or Catherine
7. Louis XIV or Napoleon

Let's nut this out so we all know what to do and there's no mistakes. For instance, all our friendly hindus are near the bottom, and also with Liz so far down, we may well have to stop trading with her. Anyway, I just wanted this all in 1 place so we can discuss it.

Culdeus also raised these:

Of the ones I see:
1 - How to solve happiness problem? Lean on GT or Monarchy and what are short and long term solutions?
2 - Tech path vis a vis trading. What do we trade away, and for, and to whom?
3 - Picking our dance partner: Who are we most likely courting for a PA?
4 - Victory condition: What is really feasible?

3-4 are hard to pin down yet, but 1 is the issue short term, especially if we can't get a religion or some good trades. With so many AIs, resources will be at a premium early. Personally I still think we can wait a while for drama in deference to other things. Trades, religion, even AIs monarchy can't be that far away, and I'd prefer to keep arrowing toward CS and the science boosting techs.

@BLubmuz: In my tests, health was the major limiting factor pop > 15ish (did you not find this?), and this is when the AI starts to catch up again due to wars/expansion, etc. Obviously we can afford to chop 1 forest without hurting health, but we should be aware of the unhealthiness danger of more chops, forges, etc, and plan for it.

 

[dutchfire]

Asoka discovered Jud/Mono and he will trade it and Priesthood! We want Preisthood more than mono, get PH now cus CoL -> CivilService.

Agreed

@Balthalion: wow, you're a mega-editor

edit - I don't see the old upload file link so I'll just use some personal hosting space I've got.

The Easy-Upload system has been disabled since it was hacked a couple of weeks (months?) ago.

1. Drama or straight to CS?

Straight to Civil Service, hoping to pick up Drama along the way in trade.


All our graphs are looking rather good, except the culture (why can't we have a religion?)

 

[BLubmuz]

The reason why i raised back the drama question is that we can't be stuck at size 4 until CS.
There're too many "if":
- if a religion spreads to us (and we probably do NOT adopt it, so only a temple is useful for our problem)
- if the AI arrive soon to monarchy,
- if we can trade for it quickly (and 1 turn of anarchy that can be avoided WT said we can revolt together with Bureau, but IMO it's too late)
- if we can have some luxuries - probably we'll can, but after calendar, and for now only an AI has Math, a prerequisite

a detour can cost us some 9 turns with the academy, maybe less.
we can build the theather right after the GLib, then the Globe.
with a theater we can sacrifice some research % for happiness if we wish, we just have to calculate the benefit to NOT work a 3 gold tile against the less research we can (temporarily) use.

We must also calculate the benefit to grow quickly to the health cap and even over, against the benefit to reach CS straightly.
By intuition i can affirm that a detour on Drama we'll pay for itself in the short-mid term, maybe we can reach CS in the same 80th turn WT targeted, but with a problem solved and one more tech to trade.
To conclude: what a sh*t of a Bureau capital at size 4? if it can be at size 8 it's not better? even if we arrive there 2-3 turns later?

Health? let's think about it later.
For now remember that any PAIR of forests in BFC gives +1.
Only in pairs and only in BFC, i made some experiment in WB.

I'll be glad if someone else will post a pecking list: but what if buddism spreads to us instead of hindu? ehh?