SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

You're right. In fact, the fogged tile in the mountains has 3 food resources and silver. Another reason not to rush camping the deer - we might lose it for a while early on if a creative civ is below us.

Is there anything specific anyone would like me to experiment with in a test game tonight?

I lost the deer for a couple of turns on my map, so we must be prepared for that.

We're just trying to decide if we're going for the pyramids or not. So if you want to try the pyramid track on for example my (modified) map, I think that would enable us to take a better decision. It's just a suggestion though in case you have spare time

 

[LowtherCastle]

I played my (modified) map to 100 AD, at which time I had learned Liberalism (75 AD). To me this is insanely early, but that's probably due to the map and not me

First question: How does this date compare to other tries on my map? I could not find any hint in the previous posts.

I got 200ad with your map once. 740ad PA.

Build path: Theatre, GLib, Globe

Second question: Is this a suitable build path, or does GLib go before Theatre?

I'd build GLib asap when done with Lit, but I'm not certain that Drama first isn't better, to get the pop up sooner. EDIT: Are you completing Lit or Drama first?

I didn't manage to trade BW in first round, but in second when I had sailing as well. More important, I could not get Cathy to DoW because she had her hands full from 2200 AD. It turned out that she was having wet dreams about me, but it took 2300 years before she shook of her shyness and penetrated my borders with lots of pointy sticks.

Same here with Cathy except she DoWed Washington and that a few turns before Alpha. I had to suck it up and DoW too.

 

[FiveAces]

I played my (modified) map to 100 AD, at which time I had learned Liberalism (75 AD). To me this is insanely early, but that's probably due to the map and not me

First question: How does this date compare to other tries on my map? I could not find any hint in the previous posts.

I'm getting confused with all the variations - which post is it in? I'll try it tonight.

Observations: Oxford is built in 4 turns. No need to save trees for it.

That is ridiculously fast.

Build path: Theatre, GLib, Globe

Second question: Is this a suitable build path, or does GLib go before Theatre?

I think you certainly start it while you are researching Lit. Whether you continue after GLib is available depends on if you will run 10% culture and grow to size 7 (assuming no trades before Globe is finished). Maybe best way is bump culture to 10% with growth to size 6, work a 3c tile to offset sci loss, then time theater completion with growth to size 8?

I didn't manage to trade BW in first round, but in second when I had sailing as well. More important, I could not get Cathy to DoW because she had her hands full from 2200 AD. It turned out that she was having wet dreams about me, but it took 2300 years before she shook of her shyness and penetrated my borders with lots of pointy sticks.

Third question: How do you/we choose PA-partner? Is it more important to get an early war with someone, than getting the optimum partner?

Well that's tricky - is the optimum partner the one next to us that is otherwise most likely to DOW on us (by chance or by bribe) and best positioned to defend us while we're early warring, or is it the one far away that has 4 cities when everybody else has 2?

I can partly answer your question right now though - it's very important that we don't instigate an early war and DOW against the side that ends up winning. That would definitely not be optimal.

 

[LowtherCastle]

On various maps I had times form 100BC into the 200ADs. It's not really the map, but things like lux trades, religions and tech trades (CoL and philosophy traded or researched). These facts vary a lot even on the same map.

I haven't been lucky enough to have someone research Philosphy for me yet. Once I got 2 or 3 turns shaved off of CoL. On any map.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I recommend we PA with Ghandi and still win the GOLD. That'll teach those suckers...

 

[LowtherCastle]

@klarius: I've read wive's tales and folklore about AIs becoming more warlike when the human DoWs, less so when the human avoids war. Is there anything to this?

I'm wondering because Gnejs started warring later and delayed Alpha trades and the AIs ended up not as advanced along the CHemistry bee-line. I'm wondering if delaying warring some turns but agreesively trading Alpha can lead to the AIs helping us with CoL and/or PHilo if we manipulate things correctly.

 

[Gnejs]

Third question: How do you/we choose PA-partner? Is it more important to get an early war with someone, than getting the optimum partner?

We ally with the winner of course. This is how I have approached the question:

Get several AIs to dogpile on a weak target. We start accumulating shared war turns with all of them. One AI will come out on top, often but not always this will be the one that has already the most cities. Sometimes it can be useful to have a scout in the action, to be able to call off one of the less interesting AIs before they happen to grab a city in front of our preferred AI.
When the war ends, or if the score/# city leader makes peace, then immediately start a new war against another target, preferrably getting some new allies with fresh troops to join in. Often it is nice if some of the other AIs are still stuck in the old war since that will slow them down further.

I have always been able to manipulate my intended ally into a position as top in score, tech and # cities.

 

[Erkon]

...I'd build GLib asap when done with Lit, but I'm not certain that Drama first isn't better, to get the pop up sooner. EDIT: Are you completing Lit or Drama first?...

I completed Drama, then teched to Literature. It was about 12 turns to drama and I completed it to have something to trade away. OTOH the extra happiness at 10% culture was not really useful enough to delay GLib 10 turns. My conclusion is that we shall put two or three turns into Drama and then switch to Literature as soon as we have polytheism. But it's better to put beakers into Drama then Poly. I'm not sure many AI have completed Poly at T46.

I'm getting confused with all the variations - which post is it in? I'll try it tonight..

It's this post

I haven't been lucky enough to have someone research Philosphy for me yet. Once I got 2 or 3 turns shaved off of CoL. On any map.

I had to research CoL but traded for Phil.

We ally with the winner of course...

How come I did not think of that? Oh, perhaps because assumed there was a SMARTER way!

So it doesn't really matter what traits the AI has? Or do we just trust that the most suitable PA will also be most successful in early war? Well, let's continue this discussion when we know we can choose from...

 

[Gnejs]

Here you go.

Thanks. I played your game to completion, 1555 AD domination, by a) gifting all units to Hattie, b) building research indefinitely in Beijing, c) declaring war on Cyrus, Frederick, Gandhi, Washington, one after another. I didn't move a single unit, just pressed end of turn the whole time...

Washington and Frederick got Rifling pretty quickly and we didn't have a tech edge over them early on. But I dowed Frederick anyway as he had spread units all over the place, with half his army in Tokus lands. Washington was later attacked with Infantry an artillery and fell in 3 turns...

Conclusion: tech situation is fine in this variant also.

 

[Gnejs]

How come I did not think of that? Oh, perhaps because assumed there was a SMARTER way!

So it doesn't really matter what traits the AI has? Or do we just trust that the most suitable PA will also be most successful in early war? Well, let's continue this discussion when we know we can choose from...

I don't think the traits matter much. It just seems as if the creative AIs are the most successful early on. Maybe they are settling in places where the other don't?

 

[Gnejs]

Trust me--I can make my turnset veeerrrrry interesting...

20-15-10 is perfect for finishing Alpha on T45 which looks most likely. Just make sure Gnejs pauses and uploads right before his mistakes.

What mistakes?


Btw, I have updated the Pre-Play Plan for a 20 turns turnset.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We ally with the winner of course. This is how I have approached the question:

Get several AIs to dogpile on a weak target. We start accumulating shared war turns with all of them. One AI will come out on top, often but not always this will be the one that has already the most cities. Sometimes it can be useful to have a scout in the action, to be able to call off one of the less interesting AIs before they happen to grab a city in front of our preferred AI.
When the war ends, or if the score/# city leader makes peace, then immediately start a new war against another target, preferrably getting some new allies with fresh troops to join in. Often it is nice if some of the other AIs are still stuck in the old war since that will slow them down further.

I have always been able to manipulate my intended ally into a position as top in score, tech and # cities.

How come I did not think of that? Oh, perhaps because assumed there was a SMARTER way!

So it doesn't really matter what traits the AI has? Or do we just trust that the most suitable PA will also be most successful in early war? Well, let's continue this discussion when we know we can choose from...

I'm skeptical about partnering with a non-creatin AI. I've been doing it completely differently. I've been picking my AI and primarily having him DoW someone else. On rare occasions I have pulled someone else in for some particular reason, but I didn't want to have a situation where other AIs were capturing my partners targets. I also on occasion have another AI war with a 4th party.

I've been focussing one selected partner and research.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What mistakes?


Btw, I have updated the Pre-Play Plan for a 20 turns turnset.

Well, it looks mistake-proof...

Looks good to me. When ya playin?

 

[Erkon]

What mistakes?


Btw, I have updated the Pre-Play Plan for a 20 turns turnset.

You have a go from me as well. And just to be clear: please upload each turn so we can later detect when you did your crucial mistake which lost us the gold! J/K - but please remember that this turn set is the most important so far. Good luck. At least make a mid turn update, ok?

PS: So there is no difference for the first 20 turns regarding the pyramid track and the non-pyramid approach?

 

[Gnejs]

PS: So there is no difference for the first 20 turns regarding the pyramid track and the non-pyramid approach?

No, unless you count a totally different research and build order...

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track....

FiveAces, will you play with the pointy buildings tonight?

 

[klarius]

@klarius: I've read wive's tales and folklore about AIs becoming more warlike when the human DoWs, less so when the human avoids war. Is there anything to this?

Existing wars get the chance of dog pile declarations (and some leaders are much more likely to do this than a max_war declaration e.g. Liz 1/300 for max_war, 1/25 for dogpile).
So there can be more wars, but that has nothing directly to do with the human declaring. If you could afford to bribe people w/o being involved you would get the same effect.

 

[klarius]

No, unless you count a totally different research and build order...

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track....

FiveAces, will you play with the pointy buildings tonight?

Well, as I said I did it . But died before alphabet.
BTW, I didn't even do a max pyramids thing, I got pyramids ~T45, planned alpha ~T60. Hatty came T47.

I did several max pyramids runs in the very beginning w/o knowing all the resources and died there also once to Hatty.

So, I think it's too risky and another successful run will not convince me otherwise.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track....

Can you believe it?! This deity level is intense. We haven't started and we're already getting extorted.

 

[Gnejs]

Well, as I said I did it . But died before alphabet.
BTW, I didn't even do a max pyramids thing, I got pyramids ~T45, planned alpha ~T60. Hatty came T47.

I did several max pyramids runs in the very beginning w/o knowing all the resources and died there also once to Hatty.

So, I think it's too risky and another successful run will not convince me otherwise.

I know, and I am also in favour of our early Alpha strategy. But I would like to see how a successful Pyramids strategy compares with a successful Alpha strategy. As it is now we have many succesful Alpha trial games on a bunch of different maps and one single successful Pyramids game on one single map. If Pyramids in general beat Alpha then we are going to lose to those teams that avoid an early DoW due to either skill or luck. On the other hand, if both strategies equally good or even Alpha is better then we are doing the right thing going for the less risky strategy.

 

[Erkon]

Can you believe it?! This deity level is intense. We haven't started and we're already getting extorted.

Yep, so we all share a -1 with Gnejs unless one of us give in to his demands (then he will get a +1 )