SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

[jesusin]

Culture would be a bit different though as we don't need them to have >2 cities.

Hey, they need to be able to build 2 cathedrals per religion!

The main difference in culture is the type of leader you want to PA with and the kind of GPeople you want after the first one.

 

[FiveAces]

I need to point something out based on what we've seen so far - Liz, Asoka, and Washington are all diplo-win friendly AI's. By that I mean they all like each other so you shouldn't normally get a TWTE penalty, they're relatively peaceful so they don't often war with each other, and they have mutually exclusive favorite civics. Toku is a pain, but he can be eliminated without diplo penalty from the others during a mutual war since no one usually likes him anyway.

I bring this up because the theoretical fastest possible VC for OCC deity is diplo (pre-1500 easily), and as long as it's theoretically possible we should keep it in mind. There's at least one team that has an excellent player who loves OCC diplo - and if they get it 1 or 2 votes after the UN, they will beat us if we are going for dom (assuming they go that way, of course, it's all really just speculation this early but after OB we'll have a much better idea).

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't think it has relevance to trading/DOWing at alpha. I believe our trades and research will be the same at and for a while after alpha for all VC's. We need a PA anyway, and for dom/space/conquest we would work that similarly. Culture would be a bit different though as we don't need them to have >2 cities.

I'm thinking in terms of who we decide to DoW and how many people we bring in and the various effects of all this on our strategy if our continent is too small.

Bingo! Okay, I just remembered one detail: If we trade for Meditation, then we can't bulb Optics before Philosphy. If our continent is too small, we may want to bee-line Optics to get to know others asap.

Also, if you bring 2 units down the edges to outline the continent by alpha, do you have time to bring them up the middle to meet any landlocked AI by then too?

Well, of course you need to zigzag. We don't know how wide the continent is, the shape ofthe coasline, and where the Ais will have roads, but in general you only need to hit the coast every four-five tiles. (EDIT: Fog-gazing, you can even hit it less, if your only goal is to determine the DomTileCount).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Here's an idea for a PA with someone on the other continent: As soon as we find out our continent is too small, we could plan to lightbulb (1st or 2nd GS,not sure) Philosophy, so we can spread our religion to the potential partner.

 

[FiveAces]

Bingo! Okay, I just remembered one detail: If we trade for Meditation, then we can't bulb Optics before Philosphy. If our continent is too small, we may want to bee-line Optics to get to know others asap.

I don't think making a PA with a civ on the other continent is the right move if ours is to small. I think we'd win earlier staying the course on our own continent and going for space. But I might be wrong.

EDIT: Space if we can't get dom by our continent plus 1-some number of cities on the other.

 

[Erkon]

There is one other reason why it's good to reveal the land early and that is to detect the resources, which will have an impact on the selection of PA-partner and victim. But do we really want to start the first war around T45-50? It seams a bit early, and will most probably only result in pillaging instead of cities switching ownership. The final tile count may be needed around T80? Then warrior and scout can then walk down the continent with 25% land outside each and 50% land between to ensure we meet all AI.

EDIT: TWTE = Traded With The Enemy (?)

 

[FiveAces]

There is one other reason why it's good to reveal the land early and that is to detect the resources, which will have an impact on the selection of PA-partner and victim. But do we really want to start the first war around T45-50? It seams a bit early, and will most probably only result in pillaging instead of cities switching ownership.

If we don't instigate a war with alpha, then we might not be able to instigate one until we've finished CS. Lit the advanced civs will take early (i.e. before we get drama if we've traded alpha aggressibely) for GLib, drama is not enough by itself, and the civs w/out Lit, CoL + drama by the time we get CoL might to be too backwards to be appealing PA targets.

But I'm not saying we have to instigate at alpha, or that we should. Heck, I think on the Erkon map game, Cathy DOW'd Cyrus before I researched alpha anyway.

The final tile count may be needed around T80? Then warrior and scout can then walk down the continent with 25% land outside each and 50% land between to ensure we meet all AI

.

I would prefer to know if we have enough tiles for dom (we don't need complete count, just to know we're over the limit, or that we definitely won't be) by finish of CS, if possible. Because that might impact we bribe into war.

EDIT: TWTE = Traded With The Enemy (?)

Yes - I'll be more careful with the acronyms.

 

[FiveAces]

Hey, they need to be able to build 2 cathedrals per religion!

Doh! That's why you're the culture master!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Getting someone to DoW is also a defensive mechanism. As I understand it, the main reason to get to Alpha sooner than later is to avert the danger of AIs DoWing us. We want to do that by getting them Dowing in the other direction so we don't need to build units for defense. (Otherwise, we might as well go with the Pyramids, because they provide a lot more flexibility if our continent is too small.)

 

[LowtherCastle]

I bring this up because the theoretical fastest possible VC for OCC deity is diplo (pre-1500 easily), and as long as it's theoretically possible we should keep it in mind. There's at least one team that has an excellent player who loves OCC diplo - and if they get it 1 or 2 votes after the UN, they will beat us if we are going for dom (assuming they go that way, of course, it's all really just speculation this early but after OB we'll have a much better idea).

Could you explain how you see it at the fastest theoretically? It seems to me to require the same techs as Domination plus a bunch more, so I don't get it.

EDIT: Okay, I see that WastinTime has 1220ad for DIplo and 1390ad for space, but that using his specialized maps. I can't open his saves but I'm assuming they're OOC but also that they're pangaea and not continents. We know that he's using just 6 AIs and that makes a huge difference for controlling the vote. I can't see how he'll get a quick vote in his favor without having pure luck that all AIs on our continent have 1 religion and Gyathaar having set up the map so that the other continent is extremely food-poor and thus low pop. Otherwise, he's in the same boat as Dominatin--having to war to achieve the DIplo vote

 

[FiveAces]

Looking at the diplo screen - Liz doesn't know Toku. So he is probably below Bombay and there's an unknown civ below Liz.

I think we want alpha asap to get Washington pleased. He looks like he's gonna either gonna get boxed in pretty quickly or right up against us.

 

[FiveAces]

Could you explain how you see it at the fastest theoretically? It seems to me to require the same techs as Domination plus a bunch more, so I don't get it.

You are correct. Theoretically you can win dom the turn after you get communism and make the PA. What I meant was that we can build the UN earlier than the dom times we have been achieving in our test games.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What I meant was that we can build the UN earlier than the dom times we have been achieving in our test games.

Okay. I get it.

Theoretically you can win dom the turn after you get communism and make the PA.

Hmmm... now that sounds like a plan.

Gnejs, did you read that? You and your entire manliness are hereby challenged and thereby threatened.

Speaking of WastinTime and theoreitically best results. He never uses the Pyramids, does he? Doesn't he always do the ALpha bee-line, etc.?

 

[Gnejs]

There is one other reason why it's good to reveal the land early and that is to detect the resources, which will have an impact on the selection of PA-partner and victim. But do we really want to start the first war around T45-50? It seams a bit early, and will most probably only result in pillaging instead of cities switching ownership.

Not if we set up a 3-on-1 war, which is quite easy to do. If we have copper or Iron we should also be prepared to gift it to our potential PA partner. I did this with Isabella in the last test game. She was very quick in making use of it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Not if we set up a 3-on-1 war, which is quite easy to do. If we have copper or Iron we should also be prepared to gift it to our potential PA partner. I did this with Isabella in the last test game. She was very quick in making use of it.

I firmly believe that the only way we can significantly increase the military expansion of our future PA partner is by liberal use of catapults. Four cats protected by a Mace or Cho-ko-nu (or?) can almost guarantee our partner will capture one city after another. EDIT: Plus a couple follow-up cats for each city to replenish suiciders.

 

[Gnejs]

Okay. I get it.Hmmm... now that sounds like a plan.

Gnejs, did you read that? You and your entire manliness are hereby challenged and thereby threatened.

Oh no! My manliness is threatened!

By what, btw?



Domination 500 AD won't happen, because the AI is too stupid to research the right techs and wage wars successfully before we get to tell them how and when. But if all the early wars are lucky in that our to-be-ally gets to capture the cities then I wouldn't rule out a domination before 1200 AD. Maybe 1000 AD is possible but I doubt it.

 

[jesusin]

Doh! That's why you're the culture master!

I ain't no culture master. The one and only culture master is the same person that loves OCC diplo.

 

[jesusin]

EDIT: Okay, I see that WastinTime has 1220ad for DIplo and 1390ad for space, but that using his specialized maps. I can't open his saves but I'm assuming they're OOC but also that they're pangaea and not continents. We know that he's using just 6 AIs and that makes a huge difference for controlling the vote. I can't see how he'll get a quick vote in his favor without having pure luck that all AIs on our continent have 1 religion and Gyathaar having set up the map so that the other continent is extremely food-poor and thus low pop. Otherwise, he's in the same boat as Dominatin--having to war to achieve the DIplo vote

He used no wars for that record. All peaceful AI, OCC, shared civics, shared religion, the opponent is the hated one, made the trick. Pangea like: inland sea.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Oh no! My manliness is threatened!

By what, btw?

By the Wimp of the Millenium plaque you're going to get if we fail to dominate 1 turn after Communism.

Okay, here's an idea:

We do it your way, dogpiling the wimpy AIs so that we have a handful of powerful AIs that like us when we research CS. We then do the usual trades at that point to get MW, Machinery, Engineering, or whatever it is. We check to see which of our friends now has Maces. That's it. Combine with a handful of our cats (we just recently traded for Construction), we go to town.

Maces plus cats = No more Asoka, no more Lizzy, no more Washington, no more whoever.

 

[Gnejs]

I firmly believe that the only way we can significantly increase the military expansion of our future PA partner is by liberal use of catapults. Four cats protected by a Mace or Cho-ko-nu (or?) can almost guarantee our partner will capture one city after another. EDIT: Plus a couple follow-up cats for each city to replenish suiciders.

To spite you, let me suggest at least one alternative way:

We can focus exclusively on research and lightbulbing, to get a tech advantage that lets our AI steamroll over the other civs. There are four key techs here:

1. Chemistry. The AI will mass upgrade maces and longbows to Grenadiers. If this happens before the target has Gunpowder they will be slaughtered. IIRC correctly nothing upgrades to Musketmen so there is still a window of opportunity after they get Gunpowder.

2. Steel. Cannons rule. Enough said.

3. Artillery. Rules more.

4. Assembly line. Some targets will make it to Rifling and suddenly have 20 Riflemen in their capital. We don't want our friend to waste too many Grenadiers on them.

Then there are a couple of outsiders, that may or may not be important:

5. Military tradition. Can work if there are horses. Unfortunately the AI will pillage like crazy.

6. Railroad. For quick transportation to and from different fronts.