SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

[Gnejs]

Same. 4 cities. No great shakes, but she's still on top of the score graph and has the most cities. I actually didn't even try to help her in capturing Washington's cities. My only focus was getting my level 4 unit, having the common wars and beeliing Communism. I had about 10 turns where focus on building axes and beat off Washington. Could have easily focused on capturing his two cities. He had lost his copper and was down to 3 defenders. Clearly, though, Kubla would be better for warring. I think Cathy will take some time to capture the continent, but each AI is so small that it will just be dominoes. All the teams will be in the same boat.

I didn't hurry the worker. Built a warrior and one wb, grew to pop2, built the worker while working both crab tiles for extra commerce. I may have had a few idle turns too. So it goes. We're still guessing with this anyway, not knowing the full FC. To me, what I wanted to see with Erkon's map was whether we could get the PA reasonably close to klarius' 450ad date. I think we can reliably say that it's achievable.

My only remaining questions are on the trade-offss of Drama (trading, Globe, alloyed gene pool), how many forests to keep in the FC (balance between fast PA and endgame production).

I spot five fogged tiles in the BFC which are all forested. That means fur or deer are the only possible resources, right? Another fur wouldn't change much but with a deer we should be looking at Hunting+worker first.

Anyway, I see no reason not to settle in place. Nothing the warrior could possible reveal would make me interested in moving away from the coast, and there won't be any new information that would suggest moving along the coast (except maybe if the warrior goes NE but that seems highly unlikely with the ice up there).


If we are able to adopt a religion and trade for a happy resource (or ask a friendly AI to give us one, works quite often!) then Drama/GT is not very urgent and can be delayed until at least after Civil Service.



What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I still think first turn = 0 is better to be in line with the progress graph counting.

As diplomacy is pretty important in this game, I would like people reporting when the attitude changes between AIs and at what value this happens. At least switch on autolog with all reporting options and include it in your post.
We might be able to deduce the hidden random value in the attitude value.

I agree.

I would add: Make a note of the turn we and another AI start having a common war and note the turn that the AI declares peace, so we can know when we've gotten to 40 turns of common war.

 

[Gnejs]

What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

Hm, let me elaborate on those forests. Each forest gives +0.4 health, 12*0.4= +4.8 health. I assume that the health benefit is rounded down, so we can chop:
0-2 forests at no health cost
3-4 forests for -1 health
5-7 forests for -2 health
8-9 forests for -3 health
10-12 forests for -4 health

I retract my previous statement. We should chop up to seven forests ASAP, and save the rest until we get some further health resources from our ally.

 

[klarius]

What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

What a tree hater you are.
We don't need the steenkin' hammers from the forest chops except maybe 2 for GLib. More early is just wasting them and worker turns. Don't tell me they will regrow. That's not sure at all.
I want still some chops later for university/Oxford.
We can even use some on military late (to build workshops after chemistry).

 

[LowtherCastle]

What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

Okay, Mr. Woodchuck (aka Builder), what's your logic? I'm sitting here running tests so Mr. Gnejs (aka Warmonger) can have lumbermills, pop13+ and produce 1 unit/turn 50 turns before building hospitals and you evidently would rather have nice green lawns with playgrounds for your kiddies to play on, or what?

We don't know yet whether we have river tiles to the south, but I take it you want to put those ASAP chops into GLib, granary and lighthouse? I don't see any point in chopping the hills because we'll probably never need hill mines. The plains tiles are useless for cottages because our city (as we now see it) is food scarce. That leaves the grass tiles. I suppose your logic might be that by chopping those structures, our citizens can work cottages instead of working hammer tiles. This also grows our pop faster. This might dovetail nicely with HeredRule (or Globe). That would get us to liberalism somewhat faster.

I guess I can see your cottage-cheese logic for about 4 chops. I try that out, if I can find the time.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Can anyone explain why I have +5 for forests when I have only 11 forests (11*.4=4.4) in my FC?

 

[FiveAces]

I spot five fogged tiles in the BFC which are all forested. That means fur or deer are the only possible resources, right? Another fur wouldn't change much but with a deer we should be looking at Hunting+worker first.

Anyway, I see no reason not to settle in place. Nothing the warrior could possible reveal would make me interested in moving away from the coast, and there won't be any new information that would suggest moving along the coast (except maybe if the warrior goes NE but that seems highly unlikely with the ice up there).


If we are able to adopt a religion and trade for a happy resource (or ask a friendly AI to give us one, works quite often!) then Drama/GT is not very urgent and can be delayed until at least after Civil Service.



What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

1) Yes, IIRC that would be a base 4 tile, so we would get the worker out quickly and then grow/improve/work the furs too and build wb's faster.

2) There appear to be grassland tiles in the fog to the S (might be my monitor, though). If the warrior reveals say corn and gems, we should discuss settling on the stone or marble. We will get +1h on the city square, research alpha much faster and not need to build wb's for growth. But we lose the coast. I'd be really surprised if an OCC game is set up without giving an obvious choice about where to settle, and based on what we see now, settling in place is the only reasonable play.

3) Agree - after alpha I'm inclined to either go Lit for GL (esp if we can trade for poly), or trade+research towards CoL/CS.

4) I'm not yet sure how many I would want to save long-term, but I think if I were chopping before maths I'd only chop into something we get a bonus on, like GL. And afterwards I'd still try to save most of them for uni/Oxford. But if we get a deer that helps the health problem so we could chop more aggressively. We can't chop a settler, and our growth builds (wb's, granary, aqueduct) will be limited by need for monarchy/GT, so IMO that reduces the value of early chopping considerably. In fact other than GL I'm not sure we'll have a need for early chopping unless we need to rush axes for defence

EDIT: crosspost with klarius (long lunch ) we're on the same page.

 

[Gnejs]

Okay, Mr. Woodchuck (aka Builder), what's your logic? I'm sitting here running tests so Mr. Gnejs (aka Warmonger) can have lumbermills, pop13+ and produce 1 unit/turn 50 turns before building hospitals and you evidently would rather have nice green lawns with playgrounds for your kiddies to play on, or what?

We don't know yet whether we have river tiles to the south, but I take it you want to put those ASAP chops into GLib, granary and lighthouse? I don't see any point in chopping the hills because we'll probably never need hill mines. The plains tiles are useless for cottages because our city (as we now see it) is food scarce. That leaves the grass tiles. I suppose your logic might be that by chopping those structures, our citizens can work cottages instead of working hammer tiles. This also grows our pop faster. This might dovetail nicely with HeredRule (or Globe). That would get us to liberalism somewhat faster.

I guess I can see your cottage-cheese logic for about 4 chops. I try that out, if I can find the time.

Cottages of course, to be complemented with workshops when we need additional production. Workshops > Lumbermills, especially with a very early beeline to Communism (State Property).

The hills should be mined for sure to allow us quick production boosts, 19 raw hammers/turn at size 6 with a lighthouse. Perfect for completing that GL/GT a couple of turns sooner.

Here is my list of essential buildings:
Library
Granary
Lighthouse
Harbor
Barracks
Great Library
Heroic Epic
University
Oxford
Monasteries

Don't tell me you want to build them all the slow way while not even working the hills.


Btw, what plains tiles? I see no cottageable plains tiles except the Fur.

 

[FiveAces]

Hm, let me elaborate on those forests. Each forest gives +0.4 health, 12*0.4= +4.8 health. I assume that the health benefit is rounded down, so we can chop:
0-2 forests at no health cost
3-4 forests for -1 health
5-7 forests for -2 health
8-9 forests for -3 health
10-12 forests for -4 health

I retract my previous statement. We should chop up to seven forests ASAP, and save the rest until we get some further health resources from our ally.

Can anyone explain why I have +5 for forests when I have only 11 forests (11*.4=4.4) in my FC?

Because +.4 for forests is wrong . It's +.5. You guys are getting them confused with floodplains which are -.4

 

[klarius]

Here is my list of essential buildings:
Library
Granary
Lighthouse
Harbor
Barracks
Great Library
Heroic Epic
University
Oxford
Monasteries

Don't tell me you want to build them all the slow way while not even working the hills.

Well all besides the HE (but globe and NE) is there in my 450AD save w/o using the hills (ok, one strong resource on the plains, but we still hope for that ). Plains hills are really pretty bad tiles, if you don't have a lot food. You can pop-rush for a similar food to hammer ratio if needed.

 

[FiveAces]

Cottages of course, to be complemented with workshops when we need additional production. Workshops > Lumbermills, especially with a very early beeline to Communism (State Property).

The hills should be mined for sure to allow us quick production boosts, 19 raw hammers/turn at size 6 with a lighthouse. Perfect for completing that GL/GT a couple of turns sooner.

I don't think quick maximum production is needed - I'll explain why below the building lists.

Here is my list of essential buildings:
Library
Granary
Lighthouse
Harbor
Barracks
Great Library
Heroic Epic
University
Oxford
Monasteries

Don't tell me you want to build them all the slow way while not even working the hills.

Agree with the list, though I would add an observatory. And if you're chopping all our forests early, you really should have an aqueduct on there too

This is my high level thoughts of why you don't chop everything out asap: Until you finish CS, you can only build lib-gran-lh-barracks-gl-monasteries because you won't have the other necessary techs. Our ONLY worker will need to improve AND road the furs, marble, and stone (maybe a deer) AND chop and cottage the river grassland BEFORE he can think about chopping anything else. That's gonna take him up to CS (or thereabouts) and then he's going to want to pre-chop so that we can lightning finish uni/oxford because it's going to be buildable pretty soon.

So my strawman worker/build plan is deer (if exists), furs (road), stone (mine+road), marble (mine+road, if no alpha yet, otherwise quarry), chop/cottage river grassland, marble (quarry), chop cottage 1-2 grasslands, stone (quarry), pre-chop for uni/oxford.

Build plan is worker-warrior-wb-wb (not necessarily in that order)-lib (finish with chops from river grassland)-gran-gl (with 1-2 chops for cottages)-lh- warriors for -uni/oxford (chopped)

Btw, what plains tiles? I see no cottageable plains tiles except the Fur.

I think he means the one on the N which might or might not have a resource.

 

[Gnejs]

I don't think quick maximum production is needed - I'll explain why below the building lists.

Agree with the list, though I would add an observatory. And if you're chopping all our forests early, you really should have an aqueduct on there too

This is my high level thoughts of why you don't chop everything out asap: Until you finish CS, you can only build lib-gran-lh-barracks-gl-monasteries because you won't have the other necessary techs. Our ONLY worker will need to improve AND road the furs, marble, and stone (maybe a deer) AND chop and cottage the river grassland BEFORE he can think about chopping anything else. That's gonna take him up to CS (or thereabouts) and then he's going to want to pre-chop so that we can lightning finish uni/oxford because it's going to be buildable pretty soon.

Forgot about the Aqueduct, of course it is on the list as well, as is the observatory.

But you are all forgetting one benefit of chopping the buildings early: being able to build research.

 

[FiveAces]

Forgot about the Aqueduct, of course it is on the list as well, as is the observatory.

But you are all forgetting one benefit of chopping the buildings early: being able to build research.

That is true - but that built research pales in comparison to the research boost from building Oxford many turns earlier if you save the forests for it.

We ain't gonna have any forest outside our borders to chop later. Depending on where the AI builds their cities, we might only have the forest in the BFC, and maybe not all of that. Early chop the river grassland, maybe 1-2 more grasslands for GL, and any tile we're going to lose the culture battle on, but I strongly recommend saving the rest for Oxford.

EDIT: On another matter, we need to figure out how big we're going to grow to determine whether it's better to build GT or warriors for

 

[LowtherCastle]

Gnejs, how many workers are you building?

 

[Gnejs]

That is true - but that built research pales in comparison to the research boost from building Oxford many turns earlier if you save the forests for it.

We ain't gonna have any forest outside our borders to chop later. Depending on where the AI builds their cities, we might only have the forest in the BFC, and maybe not all of that. Early chop the river grassland, maybe 1-2 more grasslands for GL, and any tile we're going to lose the culture battle on, but I strongly recommend saving the rest for Oxford.

EDIT: On another matter, we need to figure out how big we're going to grow to determine whether it's better to build GT or warriors for

It doesn't matter if the AIs build their cities close if they are not creative.

Good idea on the HR warriors. How many can we have before they start to cost upkeep?

 

[Gnejs]

Gnejs, how many workers are you building?

One. But now that you mention it, maybe we should have two workers?

 

[FiveAces]

It doesn't matter if the AIs build their cities close if they are not creative.

It does because they build obelisk/library/monasteries/temples in them QUICKLY which outperform our palace/library for a long time. GL will help with this, but other than on quick speed, culture pressure is a problem in OCC.

Good idea on the HR warriors. How many can we have before they start to cost upkeep?

It's related to your total pop. klarius should be able to advise the exact mechanics. Upkeep for units is not usually a problem after currency since you get lots of gold from trade and each unit over the cap is only -1 cost (-2 if in pacifism).

One. But now that you mention it, maybe we should have two workers?

On OCC I build either 1 or 2, depending on if I have built everything I need at the time I hit the pre-HR happy cap i.e. when I temporarily can't grow any more. But since we're building GL (probably) and a lighthouse, we probably won't have time for a 2nd until after Oxford, unless we slot one in after we're working all the non-forest tiles. Assuming we haven't chopped everything by then

 

[FiveAces]

I think we need to pause after meeting our neighbors.

1) If we're surrounded by warmongers we might need to consider building a stronger military at first

2) If there are no HR-lovers around, we might need to consider pyramids for Rep so we can get somebody friendly early. I hope this is not the case. I really don't want to have to build the pyramids.

EDIT: Scratch the second point. We don't get the civics bonus unless we're both in the civic, and only 1 civ can run Rep before Constitution. I still think we need to pause after meeting some number of neighbors - but maybe writing is a good time? We're stopping there anyway. What do you guys think?

 

[klarius]

1) If we're surrounded by warmongers we might need to consider building a stronger military at first

Very unlikely that Gyathaar sets it up like this. Some teams would die before even getting an archer up - maybe us.

2) If there are no HR-lovers around, we might need to consider pyramids for Rep so we can get somebody friendly early. I hope this is not the case. I really don't want to have to build the pyramids.

Shared war and gifts is enough.
No need for civics bonus, so that shouldn't drive us anywhere.
And BTW it doesn't help if you alone are in Rep. The other also has to be there, so needs to research it. That's much to late.

 

[FiveAces]

Ok, let's not stop earlier than we planned then. I forgot about the shared war bonus - I guess my peacemonger mentality is showing