Looked at the save and it's a toughie. The other option is to get HBR off Alex, trade it and Literature to Liz for Monarchy. But Alex is just as disliked as Kublai. I think I would just make the trade with Kublai. We need to build more troops - Washington will not give us peace on deity unless we fight back. It was only a matter of time before someone would trade monarchy; I stand by my statement that the temple was a waste of hammers. The slavery switch was the right call.
SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Jabah
Emperor
We did a good deal of damage to GW (from all the lgbow he lost), you could see it on the power graph.
We have currency and some money, so I would have no objection to pay for peace (we also have several tech on GW, that we could give hoim for peace).
Now (but too late), I agree that temple might not have been the best building (lighthouse might have been better first).
We have currency and some money, so I would have no objection to pay for peace (we also have several tech on GW, that we could give hoim for peace).
Now (but too late), I agree that temple might not have been the best building (lighthouse might have been better first).
Jabah
Emperor
I will continue playing tomorrow night only, as I want more opinions (and it is a bit late now)
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
Shame about the whip before checking trades. Not the end of the world though. Kublai's a bit of a pariah, but making two trades will only worsen WFYABTA and it's not without its own diplo hit. Thus I think we should make the deal with Kublai, but not revolt to HR just yet, and try to hold out for a 2 for 1 with BUR (though I realise it may not be reasonable to hold out that long).
On the war front we're 5 - 2 up (I think) in terms of units, but we've not been at war very long at all (6-7 turns?). When HC delared on me in one test game, it took about a dozen losses before he'd consider peace.
On the war front we're 5 - 2 up (I think) in terms of units, but we've not been at war very long at all (6-7 turns?). When HC delared on me in one test game, it took about a dozen losses before he'd consider peace.
Jabah
Emperor
I we keep the 2 scientists, we won't grow (too much) above the happy limit by the time we reach CS (12t I think).
What do we want for the next build : lighthouse or granary.
(right now we are working 2crabs+2scientists, making only 3hpt and +2food/t. Lighthouse will allow to grow quite fast especially changing scientist to coast with the same research (but no GPP).
What do we want for the next build : lighthouse or granary.
(right now we are working 2crabs+2scientists, making only 3hpt and +2food/t. Lighthouse will allow to grow quite fast especially changing scientist to coast with the same research (but no GPP).
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
A lighthouse adds 1F per water tile. A granary effectively adds 1F per 2F. Since some of our food can come from off the water and since our crabs are >2F, I suggest the granary next.
And, while it's a tough call, I lean toward trading with Kublai.
And, while it's a tough call, I lean toward trading with Kublai.
Jabah
Emperor
Compromise : While I agree with our analysis in general, in our case we are at size4 and more than likely not working any land tiles while at war with GW, so working either (if we want to keep our research at max):
- 2crabs + 2 scientists for +2F total. Lgthouse : +2F, granary +1F
- 2 crabs + 2 coast for +4F total. lgthouse : +4F, granary +2F.
I would suggest lighthouse (and to be whipped when we reach size5 or when it costs only 1pop since we are making only 3hpt).
Jabah
That is assuming the priority is to keep max research (possibly with the 2 scientists) and very low production (which I believe is the best, but could be discussed).
- 2crabs + 2 scientists for +2F total. Lgthouse : +2F, granary +1F
- 2 crabs + 2 coast for +4F total. lgthouse : +4F, granary +2F.
I would suggest lighthouse (and to be whipped when we reach size5 or when it costs only 1pop since we are making only 3hpt).
Jabah
That is assuming the priority is to keep max research (possibly with the 2 scientists) and very low production (which I believe is the best, but could be discussed).
Jabah
Emperor
From our score and power evolution, it should be pretty obvious for the other teams to know what had happened to us 
(except the GA part for now of course)
(except the GA part for now of course)
Kodii
Ka ICE
Sorry I've not been able to provide more input into this, but I have been bogged down and will continue to be until at least Monday... so good luck with our situation up to then! I trust your decision. 
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
Seeing as it looks certain that GW will pillage our land tiles, I favour LH over granary. 1 pop whip at size 5 suggested by Jabah. I'd also favour keeping the two scientists hired, unless Philo becomes well known among the AI and thus loses its trade value.
Jabah
Emperor
Part 2
------------
T91 - 600BC
Trade Col+70g for Monarchy to Khan.
Trade
(right now we didn't get any '-' for trade with worst ennmy. Not even with Khan).
T92 - 575BC
Alex+Khan want OB, but I refuse.
The cut forrest has regrown.
GW still doesn't want to talk
temple->lighthouse.
T93 - 550BC
Alex wants to trade HBR for Monarchy+70g. No thanks
GW still doesn't want to talk
Construction is quite know just this turn.
GW has gained lots of tech (but not Construction,thks).
Trade Lit+CoL for Construction+70g to Fred.
(we get -2 for trade with Khan again now)
Get axe+archer out to be ready to try to kill an injured lgbow if it steps on our plain road (North, need to avoid the river).
T94 - 525BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
Asoka has CS.
GW lgbow didn't go in the open, everyone is back in Malabar.
T95 - 500BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
We culturally gain GW 2 cottages (I fire for 1t 1 scientist to work a village for better food+ research)
IBT : GW attacked with 2 lgbow, giving us more XP.
T96 - 475BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
Caesar has Metal Casting to trade and wants Literature+CoL+110g (as I don't want to give Construction to too many people).
Trade done. (forget to SShot it)
Change Lighthouse (need 30h, exactly 1whip whenever we want) to Forge.
T97 - 450BC
Isa asks for CoL. everyone but her, Toku and Alex have it, and we don't want any more trouble, so i accept.
GW still doesn't want to talk
IBT GW attack with 3 lgbow including 2 injured and win 2 combat killing 2 archers.
T98 - 425BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
Change the buiding back to archer, and fire the scientifists to get enough hammer to finish it this turn.
Capac and Caesar have Machinery. (untradable of course).
T99 - 400BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
GW has construction now.
GW attacked again and lose a lgbow.
Start another archer withok production (3t).
T100 - 375BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
GW suicided another lgbow.
(it is 11lgbow killed for 3 archers+1warrior up to now)
Re-employ a scientist to get a GPeople next turn.
(worker goes again on a safe tile to work for a few turn)
T101 - 350BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
We grow to size5 (not our max happy since the whip anger has gone).
We pop a GS at last
GS could pop Philo (far from being 1st, Taoism was founded in 1560BC in the other island).
With Philo, we could probably trade (in that order)
Asoka : Machinery (not monopoly - Caesar+Capac-, but only that will trade), hopefully + gold.
Frederick : Feudalism (Fred-Asoka-Lisa-GW have it, only Fred will accept), hopefully + gold
Then upgrade as many as possible of our 3 archers (cautious, 1 is combat1 to get medic promotion with a victory).
If we work 2 crabs, a coast and 2 scientists (or better, 2 crabs + 3 coast for food), we will get CS in 2t (then revolt to HR+Bureau).
We have only 3 longbows on our soil, (+ 3 at the border on GW side garding mainly at his ressource).
Save NOT upload. (get FTP error, will try again later)
save attached.
Jabah
------------
T91 - 600BC
Trade Col+70g for Monarchy to Khan.
(right now we didn't get any '-' for trade with worst ennmy. Not even with Khan).
T92 - 575BC
Alex+Khan want OB, but I refuse.
The cut forrest has regrown.
GW still doesn't want to talk
temple->lighthouse.
T93 - 550BC
Alex wants to trade HBR for Monarchy+70g. No thanks
GW still doesn't want to talk
Construction is quite know just this turn.
GW has gained lots of tech (but not Construction,thks).
Trade Lit+CoL for Construction+70g to Fred.
(we get -2 for trade with Khan again now)
Get axe+archer out to be ready to try to kill an injured lgbow if it steps on our plain road (North, need to avoid the river).
T94 - 525BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
Asoka has CS.
GW lgbow didn't go in the open, everyone is back in Malabar.
T95 - 500BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
We culturally gain GW 2 cottages (I fire for 1t 1 scientist to work a village for better food+ research)
IBT : GW attacked with 2 lgbow, giving us more XP.
T96 - 475BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
Caesar has Metal Casting to trade and wants Literature+CoL+110g (as I don't want to give Construction to too many people).
Trade done. (forget to SShot it)
Change Lighthouse (need 30h, exactly 1whip whenever we want) to Forge.
T97 - 450BC
Isa asks for CoL. everyone but her, Toku and Alex have it, and we don't want any more trouble, so i accept.
GW still doesn't want to talk
IBT GW attack with 3 lgbow including 2 injured and win 2 combat killing 2 archers.
T98 - 425BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
Change the buiding back to archer, and fire the scientifists to get enough hammer to finish it this turn.
Capac and Caesar have Machinery. (untradable of course).
T99 - 400BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
GW has construction now.
GW attacked again and lose a lgbow.
Start another archer withok production (3t).
T100 - 375BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
GW suicided another lgbow.
(it is 11lgbow killed for 3 archers+1warrior up to now)
Re-employ a scientist to get a GPeople next turn.
(worker goes again on a safe tile to work for a few turn)
T101 - 350BC
GW still doesn't want to talk
We grow to size5 (not our max happy since the whip anger has gone).
We pop a GS at last
GS could pop Philo (far from being 1st, Taoism was founded in 1560BC in the other island).
With Philo, we could probably trade (in that order)
Asoka : Machinery (not monopoly - Caesar+Capac-, but only that will trade), hopefully + gold.
Frederick : Feudalism (Fred-Asoka-Lisa-GW have it, only Fred will accept), hopefully + gold
Then upgrade as many as possible of our 3 archers (cautious, 1 is combat1 to get medic promotion with a victory).
If we work 2 crabs, a coast and 2 scientists (or better, 2 crabs + 3 coast for food), we will get CS in 2t (then revolt to HR+Bureau).
We have only 3 longbows on our soil, (+ 3 at the border on GW side garding mainly at his ressource).
Save NOT upload. (get FTP error, will try again later)
save attached.
Jabah
Jabah
Emperor
Kodii is up, but I guess we want to discuss a bit.
(We might consider our defences quite light, but we had no real pressure the last 2t and it seems a waste a time, hammer or population to whip archer when we could have lgbow, Xbow and Mace in a few turn.
Jabah
(We might consider our defences quite light, but we had no real pressure the last 2t and it seems a waste a time, hammer or population to whip archer when we could have lgbow, Xbow and Mace in a few turn.
Jabah
Jabah
Emperor
Save uploaded now
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC0350_01.Civ4SavedGame
Jabah
added (turnlog showing GW killing our archers at 12% and 2%....
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC0350_01.Civ4SavedGame
Jabah
added (turnlog showing GW killing our archers at 12% and 2%....
Spoiler turnlog :
Ok nice going there! Sorry I haven't been able to comment more...
Bulbing philo seems a good choice as we probably can trade for feudalism and machinery. Also revolting to judaism & paci&caste could be around corner after HR&bur. Now we need more defence as GWs catapults are slightly worrying (even though we're probably able to end the war soon). And a fast feudalism is essential to that imo. Also I think we shouldn't slave if not absolutely necessary as now we're free to grow.
So.. in the macro aspect: --> lib is our direction yes? (if we have a chance of winning asoka with the race, otherwise nationalism)
We should build: forge, lighthouse, granary, more defence(no more DoWs, please), the unfinished worker for getting infrastructure back online. Maybe take one scientist down after CS as now we need food&hammers.
Nothing else for now I guess..
Bulbing philo seems a good choice as we probably can trade for feudalism and machinery. Also revolting to judaism & paci&caste could be around corner after HR&bur. Now we need more defence as GWs catapults are slightly worrying (even though we're probably able to end the war soon). And a fast feudalism is essential to that imo. Also I think we shouldn't slave if not absolutely necessary as now we're free to grow.
So.. in the macro aspect: --> lib is our direction yes? (if we have a chance of winning asoka with the race, otherwise nationalism)
We should build: forge, lighthouse, granary, more defence(no more DoWs, please), the unfinished worker for getting infrastructure back online. Maybe take one scientist down after CS as now we need food&hammers.
Nothing else for now I guess..
Jabah
Emperor
Note, even if GW has had construction for a few turns, I haven't seen anything but longbows.
If we manage to trade for feudalism and Machinery (and get money, possibly selling Litterature and early techs to backwards AIs), and CS in 2t, upgrading our axe and longbow, we should be relatively safe.
Since we just get the GS, we could fire the scientisst for a while, and start growing as fast as possible after our revolution.
If we manage to trade for feudalism and Machinery (and get money, possibly selling Litterature and early techs to backwards AIs), and CS in 2t, upgrading our axe and longbow, we should be relatively safe.
Since we just get the GS, we could fire the scientisst for a while, and start growing as fast as possible after our revolution.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
I bulb the GS on Philo and see what we can get for it, with Feudalism being the priority over Machinery. If Fred won't trade Feud, we can try to scrounge cash from Asoka (max 170g), and also sell Monarchy to Alex (50g) and Toku (40g).
I'd also whip the LH and use overflow to complete the archer. Then queue up a granary (behind the forge?).
I'd also change tile assigments to work the deer instead of the coast (whipping the scientist): GW looks to be lining up another attack in a couple of turns, so we don't want to be in anarchy when he attacks (and can therefore wait an extra turn for CS to complete).
I'd also whip the LH and use overflow to complete the archer. Then queue up a granary (behind the forge?).
I'd also change tile assigments to work the deer instead of the coast (whipping the scientist): GW looks to be lining up another attack in a couple of turns, so we don't want to be in anarchy when he attacks (and can therefore wait an extra turn for CS to complete).
. I've been pretty busy recently, but will have time to look at the save tomorrow.Jabah
Emperor
Even if we want Feudalism more than Machinery, i think the proper trading order is the reverse (Machinery with Asoka/Feudalism with Fred).
- Machinery is slightly less know (3 AIs instead of 4)
- Asoka is the only one with machinery to trade and he won't be interest in neither feudalism nor CS (he has them both)
- Fred the only one (excluding Asoka) ready to trade Feudalism, but even if he doesn't want just Philo for it, we could give him Machinery or CS the following turns.
- If it comes to the worst, and we can't trade for feudalism after getting Machinery (the only reason that comes to mind is rzaching a new WFYABTA level), having machinery+CS+Copper will let us build (and upgrade to) mace which should almost be as safe for defence than Lgbow (and could attack GW lgbow in the open without too much risk).
On next round (Kodii turns).
As SP suggesting, we could delay to 3t instead of 2t CS, whip the lighthouse, but the overwhip (egal to 1t of production since lght prod is exactly at 30h) won't be enough to finish a LGBOW (the archer will be auto-upgrade in the queue, won't he ?). I suggest having the overflow in forge, to be finished then granary (max production, max food or max research, likely : 2x crabs, and 2 of "coast, deer, hill")
IF GW is not threatening Malabar, I would send worker+2 guerrilla lg on the stone and start quarring (stone can't be 'sneak attacked') or probably better, on a forrested square (unfortunalty, maybe not the river-grass one as it could be attacked without warning) and chop it toward forge/granary.
What do we want to research after CS ??
(beeline to Liberalism, using next GScientific to bulb part of Education?)
What stoping point ?
(maybe a quick pause and discuss at CS ?)
- Machinery is slightly less know (3 AIs instead of 4)
- Asoka is the only one with machinery to trade and he won't be interest in neither feudalism nor CS (he has them both)
- Fred the only one (excluding Asoka) ready to trade Feudalism, but even if he doesn't want just Philo for it, we could give him Machinery or CS the following turns.
- If it comes to the worst, and we can't trade for feudalism after getting Machinery (the only reason that comes to mind is rzaching a new WFYABTA level), having machinery+CS+Copper will let us build (and upgrade to) mace which should almost be as safe for defence than Lgbow (and could attack GW lgbow in the open without too much risk).
On next round (Kodii turns).
As SP suggesting, we could delay to 3t instead of 2t CS, whip the lighthouse, but the overwhip (egal to 1t of production since lght prod is exactly at 30h) won't be enough to finish a LGBOW (the archer will be auto-upgrade in the queue, won't he ?). I suggest having the overflow in forge, to be finished then granary (max production, max food or max research, likely : 2x crabs, and 2 of "coast, deer, hill")
IF GW is not threatening Malabar, I would send worker+2 guerrilla lg on the stone and start quarring (stone can't be 'sneak attacked') or probably better, on a forrested square (unfortunalty, maybe not the river-grass one as it could be attacked without warning) and chop it toward forge/granary.
What do we want to research after CS ??
(beeline to Liberalism, using next GScientific to bulb part of Education?)
What stoping point ?
(maybe a quick pause and discuss at CS ?)
Jabah
Emperor
Was everyone away for the WE ?
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
After CS, I see the next goal as Education. I think the war and the low odds Artist have set us back too far for a Liberalism chase to be successful, so I'd favour an Academy with the next GS.
I'd stop the next set after learning Paper, but maybe take a break if we get peace, or if something unpleasant happens.
I'd stop the next set after learning Paper, but maybe take a break if we get peace, or if something unpleasant happens.
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