SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

Jabah · Jul 22, 2008

I think that our next victims should be GW, then Toku then Isa. Only GW should have semi-modern units, but nothing artillery/infantry and numbers that could resist long. Toku and Isa are (more likely) still with middle age armies.

After, we might want to continue clockwise with Caesar than Khan then Fred/Capac, which is conviently also going from the last AI then upwards in score and so should be not too hard if the other continent doesn't interfere.
We possibly could let Lisa live (or even help us), depending on our relation and need.

Jabah

sooooo · Jul 22, 2008

Actually, now we are in a PA our civics need an overhaul.

Representation will be better than US. We have 2 settled specialists and will probably settle the rest of the specialists we get.

Theology is worth the anarchy I think. (EDIT: Haha, pacifism should definitely be gotten out of now we have a lot of military. It is costing us a lot)

Serfdom/caste I'm not sure about.

Here's an interesting idea: Nationalism. Now it does have a big downside (no bureacracy). But with biology and lumbermills we will have a decent food excess and could have a free rifleman every 4/5 or so turns. Not sure if it's worth losing bureaucracy though. Any thoughts?

We need environmentalism but lack the tech. Look out for trade opportunities.

Jabah · Jul 22, 2008

With the PA, and Asoka research ability, I think we should focus on production (for military mainly). Can't remember without looking all the specifications of basic Civ4 Civics, but likely we should have : Representation/Buro/Serfom?/FreeMarket?/Theo (or OrgRel?)

We are (should be?) building infantry (and artillery) not rifle with our tech ?

For the nationalism civics, how many population point are drafted in C4 for a infantry? I doubt the lose from production due to abandoning Buro is worth it, but we should have a proper look.

Jabah

PS - the good point of the land being crowded, is that Asoka can't start Apollo in a fishing village, all his cities are decent (and will probably be still true after conquering a few neightbours).

ruff_hi · Jul 22, 2008

Jabah said:
For the nationalism civics, how many population point are drafted in C4 for a infantry?

2 IIRC.

Are we starting on our worst enemy (GW) or the easier target (Japan)? I'd prefer GW but understand if we want to get some experienced units and unlock the Heroic Epic. With the HE in play, we might not even need Buro to build 1 turn units.

sooooo · Jul 22, 2008

Probably bureaucracy is better than nationalism actually.

Are we starting on our worst enemy (GW) or the easier target (Japan)?

I argued for GW because Kyoto is culturally pressured by Spain so Asoka would keep a lot of his army in the city after taking it to prevent a flip.

Jabah · Jul 22, 2008

I think we have the HE (or at least have it unlocked), from a 10XP archer 'thanks' to GW 1st war...

Kodii · Jul 22, 2008

Yea, GW is probably best as the first target. As for civics, I'm not as skilled in that area, so I am good with whatever would be best for our situation.

Jabah · Jul 23, 2008

I haven't played yet, (no time but mainly want to keep discussing a bit before going).

I have left my USB key with my comments and picture at home, but from memory I had a few comments.

1. Research/Tax
Asoka doesn't need us to finish Biology, his research power is way above us I guess, so I would like to go 100% cash for a while to be able to upgrade some units.

2. Production
I would not build a factory as long as we can't have power (25% bonus is not enough when we need urgently some real modern unit), so I would wait until Plastics to build any infrastructure.

3. Civics
A '2 civics' change is 1t of revolution, a '3' change is 2t.
We will be building troops for this segment mainly.
* Pacifism is indeed really silly now. Since we wil be building troops Theocracy is the best. (Later we might consider either FR for research or OrgRel for building factory/hydro/IronWorks)
* US brings nothing (but pleasing Lisa and GW), Police would be the best now (but we can't since we need the tech), Representation is slightly better (bring at least 15rpt x 150%)
* Serfdom is the only civics with a bonus right now as we have no cottage and no workshop/watermill and no happiness pb. (nota we could/should possibly put 2 watermills on the river without cutting the irrigation from the other side to use Caste for more production later)
* Free Market is the only usefull (until Environnement?)
* Bureau is only the best imho (draft infantry is 2 pop, wwhich would take too long to regrow)
I suggest only 1t revolt to Serfdom and Theo (and could do another 1t revolt to Rep and OrgRel when we want to have another infra push).

4. Research path
Asoka will do (most of) the job, and I would say Electricity/Industry/Plastics (will adapt if Asoka was researching something else that he could finish fast before telling him to go our way)

War
* GW first, but in a few turn, when we have 2/3 artillery and 2/3 infantry ready (for stack protection and pissibly to defend our tiles). Will reduce NY defence, possibly send the artillery in (if correct odds, which CR2 should have), kill as most as possible Rifle with Grenadier (and infantry) and let Asoka take the city (have to tell him to go there I guess). Repeat with Washington.
* Toku next
* Isa next
(then Fred culture might be a problem regarding Toku and Isa cities)

Basic Plan
1t revolt asap. (theo+serf)
then
My idea is to build artillery non-stop (too expensive to upgrade cats, and cats can still do the reduce defence jobs and the collateral suicide -probably vs Japan- since iirc in basic C4 they do stronger collateral than in the latest BTS, even vs riffle) and upgrade as many muskets to Infantry (first to have a strong stack/city defenders, and after to be able to attack) as we could afford each turn. (Keep the grenadier as they are almost as good vs rifle)

If everything is fine (and quick) I plan to play until Toku is no more.

Plan to play either tonight (very unlikely) or tomorrow

Comments ?

Jabah

Kodii · Jul 23, 2008

I'm not sure how long (or fast) these wars will take, so it might be best to pause after GW is out of the picture, so that we don't rush things.

ruff_hi · Jul 23, 2008

agree with Kodii - play until GW is gone or 15 turns max.

sooooo · Jul 23, 2008

Sounds good to me Jabah.

Jabah · Jul 25, 2008

I still have not played. (Was out of the office yesterday and my home internet was down, so I couldn't check your answers).

I should be able to play tonight or tomorrow morning/lunch time.
So I will stop after GW is gone (or if something important and unplanned happens)

Jabah

Jabah · Jul 25, 2008

T0 - 1505AD (T211)
Ask for 320g from Asoka to upgrade 3 muskets to Rifle
revolt to Serfdom+Theocracy (1t)

T1 - 1510
Set research to Electricity (Asoka will do it in 4t, in fact that is because he had started it earlier, more than 75% done)

Declare on GW

Ask Asoka to attack New-York.
Use our cats to reduce NY defences to 0 in 1t
Kill the 2 rifle defending the cow

Get 200g to upgrade another musket from selling map and asking Asoka for the rest.

IBT
We have a big problem : Cathy has completed a SS casing !!!
GW reacts weakly sending a rifle+cat on the marble

T2 - 1515
Asoka is sending 9 infantries and 3 artillery towards NY, but need another turn to be next to it.
Suicide 2 cats, now the infantry has 80% on the best defender.
Win infantry x2, lose a grenadier at 75%, lose another 1 at 85%, win 3.
There are now only 2 50% injured rifle defending, so Asoka should be able to finish it in 2t.

T3 - 1520
Despite my orders, Asoka is attacking Washington instead of NY. (without removing the 80% defence!)

Lose a infantry at 85%, trying to break through the silver path to get our troops to Washington to help Asoka. (finish the stack there without trouble after).

NY defender are also all killed (thanks to our new CR2 artillery) but one.

T4 - 1525
Asoka has capture Washington without our help

But he bloody still didn't manage to move a soldier at NY door.

Looking at the powergraph, Asoka victory has been quite costly...

T5 - 1530
We have a problem, Asoka is not sending anything toward NY...
GS born, wait 1t to see what he will do after Electricity

T6 - 1535
Asoka is still not coming.
Since we are running 100% cash , I queue a grocer (2t) now that we have 3 artilleries.

GS will research fission, so he is settled.
Start sending troops to Japan.

I will try to move away from NY (next turn, cause I had to kill a second defender this turn) to see if it will attract Asoka...

Put research to 100% waiting for the grocer, Industrialism goes from 20t to 13t, so we can do 1/3 of the PA research.

T7 - 1540
Asoka has completed broadway, and had moved 1 artillery next to NY.

T8 - 1545
YEEESSSS, Asoka manage to finish GW.

We should regain control of silver and cow (health needed)
On the less funny part, Cathy finishes her 3rd SS casing.

Move our troops towards Kyoto defended by 14 lgbows.

Asoka has cultural control around, so he should be able to use it properly.

Next turn, we could have 2 stacks at Kyoto gates:
- 1 infantry + 2 grenadier (with movement left, but not sure we want to attack asap)
- 2 infantry + 2 artillery + 2 grenadier + 1 musket + 2 mace (1medic) + 6 cats (no mouvement left)
In 3t another stack (4 infantry+1grenadier) could attack but will be too late.

I suggest we move the stack next turn, declare on the following turn, reduce the def to 0% and win as many XP as possible before Asoka finish the job.

Should we keep building troops or do we start building infra ?

Save upload
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_AD1545_01.Civ4SavedGame

Jabah

Spoiler :

Kodii · Jul 25, 2008

Looking good! Got it.

Notes:

- Sally, Lizzy are WHEOOH
- I would stick to building troops and declare on Tokugawa in a couple turns

My turnset could potentially be very short.

sooooo · Jul 28, 2008

I will be away 30th July - 9th August.

BTW we should probably get a move on if we want to finish before the deadline.

Jabah · Jul 28, 2008

While we are on the 'away' times.

I am away for long WE the 1st-3rd and 8th-11th of August Then on holidays between the 15th-31st of August.

Back to the Game.

Japan should be a cakewalk, and we should promoted as many units as possible (all cats should bombard to 0% easily, then our artilleries would reduce most of the longbow into injured units to be finish by infantry and grenadier).
We should then move onto Spain next door.

After, we might have a cultural problem with Germany.

I would keep attacking either continuing south (but we need to have Asoka troops following) or going for Fred and Capac.

I think we should avoid attacking anyone with artillery for now (And that means mainly Lisa on our continent).

If we want Coal, the 'easiest' to get are iirc in Capac land by the western shore (2 sources). the other ones are 3SW of York under english control (too difficult to get,it means attacking england and the holder of Alex cities (cathy?)) and far in the south.

sooooo · Jul 28, 2008

I agree with Spain after Japan. Kodii I would go ahead and declare on Izzy during your turnset or it could just be a 3-turn set.

chmoosi · Jul 28, 2008

Hello all. I'm Back. Great work on the game guys. I'm still a little blastered from my journeys so I won't offer any insight yet (but have been reading a little every now and then so I'm hanging on still) but I think I'll be up and running in a day or two so I could maybe take a turn after Kodii...

ruff_hi · Jul 28, 2008

Roster - pulled from 2 pages back
ruff_hi [on deck]
sooooo [in the hole]
Swiss Pauli
chmoosi
Compromise
Jabah
Kodii [up]

Kodii · Jul 28, 2008

A couple of interesting speedbumps and a question lead me to stop a couple turns in.

My first turn into the set, I declared war on Tokugawa and noticed something interesting:

Well, I guess we should check for DPs next time? :lol:

It doesn't really matter, since one turn later:

I am ready to keep rolling (over Izzy), but I paused here just in case any one has any problem with keeping a double war going.

I also have a question: in BtS, oil allows us railroads. Is it the same in Vanilla?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_AD1560_01.Civ4SavedGame

Spoiler :

SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Live 4ever! Or die trying

Emperor

Emperor

Ka ICE

Emperor

Ka ICE

Live 4ever! Or die trying

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Ka ICE

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Warlord

Live 4ever! Or die trying

Ka ICE

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