SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[vra379971]

@Shikhee

Ok, let's compare notes.

Testing & calculating
We don't need a test game. It is possible to calculate things exactly just by looking at the save. You write down the current turn statistics and iterate for the next 10 turns. It is actually not that difficult.

Chopping

Spoiler :

Which forests would you chop? All forests we have are inside our BFC. We have 9 forests and we are getting +4 health. We can chop one forest for free now and not lose health points! (0.50 per forest). Worker is standing on a prechopped forest hill right now.

Anyway, we will have more health than needed food, I posted the count before. That's why we should chop even more to make room for a third grassland farm. That will decrease our health, but there is no use of extra health if we don't have the food for the population.

Building the GT has a bonus of 50% (Industrial). We don't have a race, but those forests will be well used here. Happy cap is also near.

Yes, cutting one here might be adviseable to open up a needed food spot.

Axeman vs Archers

Spoiler :

Axeman maybe seem better for now, but:

• The main usage is not war, but war prevention. Axeman and Archers both yield 2000 soldiers for the power graph, I've checked.
• Archers are build faster than Axeman.
• Archers will upgrade to LB's soon. (Feudalism by trade, not direct research!)
• We could also upgrade them to Cho-Ko-Nu, although I don't advocate that.

Spear is to specific, there isn't much horses out there probably. We can build that later if we'll have to.

Agreed. I would much, much rather have archers, and our UU is actually better than Axeman in the long term.

Revolting

Spoiler :

You have forgotten about the Caste System. We shall revolt to that and Bureaucracy. That's the reason we don't need Monotheism for now. Revolting to OR also would prolong the anarchy period for 1 more turn and we won't build so much with all that specialists in the city.

Caste and Bureau. Yup. Yup.

Trades

Spoiler :

The number of trades is still a thing to discuss.

• Literature for 200 gold is simply excellent in my book.
• Monarchy is the most valuable trade because it opens up Feudalism.
• Calendar will be needed to open up Astronomy. (Free tech from Liberalism)
• Currency gives +1 trade trade route, Construction cats and opens Engineering.

Anyway, the point was that all these are better than Meditation, Archery and Mono. I think we should wait a bit with the trades to see what's better. Post a screenshot when some interesting trade possibilities show up.

Sounds good. Please do post a spoiler, and make the Lit Trade.

Diplomacy

Spoiler :

Leaving Izzy and Alex to fight is probably the best thing to do. After some exploration we will know for sure who to align with. Scout is needed, warrior is too slow. However, I disagree about your religion evaluation. There won't be much religion switches on our continent. Asoka has Christianity, Confucianism is probably founded on another continent. That only leaves Taoism and Islam. Islam is far away and we might actually bag Taoism ourselves. Making friends on the other continent soon enough simply isn't going to happen IMO. Friendship based on what? Judaism very soon and sticking to that for the rest of the game is the why to go, I say that with 90% certainty. Besides, it is quite possible that our continent is alone big enough for domination.

Judaism sounds like a plan, but I'd not count on Domination being possible.

Builds

Spoiler :

We don't need the workboat, fish already have the boats and they are outside our BFC btw. Aqueduct building is a very good thing. We can build a Scout, 3 Archers, Aqueduct and finish GT (73/300 currently) in ~15 turns. Whipping one pop, 2 chops and building another mine will provide that. This can be hurried even more with a third chop. That chop has to be done because it won't decrease health. (We have 9 forests, one chop doesn't decrease health, 2 or 3 bring the same -1.)

Those builds sound like what's required here.

EDIT:
News flash: I've been talking to Asoka lately and he bragged: "Oh, look: I've just built a Longbowman. Where should I put it?"

I still think that selling Literature to him for 200 gold is a good idea. He would chip in cheap Meditation or Archery too, but no to that because of the WFYBTA limit. I'm pretty sure that Washington will have LB's soon too. Monarchy when it becomes available for trade and Feudalism are prime trade targets. I estimate we'll use CS to get Feudalism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ON SCREENSHOTS: Please DO NOT crop the City Screenshot, there is important info we don't get to see if it's cropped. So again, please just take the entire screen there.

ON PLAY TURNS: I'd rather we play to significant points instead of a set number of turns, so I'm going to request you play till we get Civil Service, and we can move from there. If we go Archery and Civil Service, we'll be there in 13 or so turns. At that point I'd like to discuss options as frankly I WOULD like to revolt to OR. (And suffer the turn penalty if we are to be Jews)

 

[Yamps]

@Shikhee

Still not sure on the consensus of Achery :

* Trade or Tech ?

Well, there are lot of techs to get by trade: MC, Compas, Machinery, Monarchy, Feudalism,Optics,Feudalism,Currency,Calendar, Construction...

Either way with Yamps plan (more Archers and Axes) we need to divert from Civil Service for a turn or trade now. I will build 1 Scout, upgrade Warrior to Axe (from Asoka money, will return him home when Scout built ready) and 2 Archers (total cost -1 gold/turn).

We have a warrior, axeman and a worker. 2 archers and a scout will give 6 units, so the total cost is 0 gpt. Personally I would built another archer and keep the warrior as an exploring unit. He could also be used as an early warning unit. Money would be saved for later. Well, in the lack of consensus it's your call.

I'm still not convinced about chopping in our city-radius for Globe, at 9 Forests we allow for a new forest to grow, which if it is going to happen will happen when we need that +1 health. I refuse to chop more than 1 in our city-radius

I recommend you try to make some exact calculations. We will reach the happy cap very soon. If we don't finish the Globe fast, what are we going to do? There is a farm to destroy for a forest to grow, but forest growing is a random element, we can't rely on that. And do you think we'll have enough food for all that health?

But with whipping we won't grow faster than building the Globe at a casual pace will get us, so we don't loose any turns when we should be growing more. The mine would be nice though (chopping NE on the pre-chopped square) ... I don't think Globe is urgent enough to use a forest, and we should save it for a select Wonder in the near future. Maybe I should whip twice (once on Scout, then on Archer) to help Globe.

Usually it is better to whip once 2 pop than twice 1 pop. I'm not sure your plan would be fast enough for the Globe. If you try to calculate exactly, here is some information:

1. Granary will always give half the food needed for growth at this point. (We need 36 at this point. When the city grows, food bar will say 18/38. Granary will provide 19, half of 38 for the next growth.)
   
2. Whipping pop 1 will cause 10 turns of unhappiness, whipping another pop 10 more turns. Whipping 2 pop at the same time will cause only 10 turns but this won't give more overflow. Whipping doesn't effect the food, it only reduces population. Of course, it reduces the food needed for the next level because of lower pop.
   
3. Make sure you understand how the GL was build.

If you have some questions about calculating, feel free to send me a PM

@Vra Don't you like Pacifism more? 100% more GPP, that's a lot.

 

[shikhee]

warning: i'm dedicated enough to play a test through a few times, not dedicated enough to number crunch (as well as there being a few concepts in there that I don't understand)



will be making my move very soon, do you want me to chop the mountain (extra mine would be great) or extra grassland (that will make 3 farms on grass we'll have, not inc. the farm we'll kill one day on the plain).

 

[shikhee]

yup - just waiting for a response on which square to chop...

 

[Yamps]

warning: i'm dedicated enough to play a test through a few times, not dedicated enough to number crunch (as well as there being a few concepts in there that I don't understand)

Yeah, I' wasn't fond of number crunching myself before. But it is easier than map making. What concepts you don't understand? Hammer overflow maybe? Let me explain a bit more what was going on with the GL.

• On turn 8 we had 59/60 for the Lighthouse.
• Than we popped: 89/60 for the Lighthouse.
• We also had 16 base production. (89-60) + 16 = 45 overflow.
• We must not chop now, because the hammer overflow cap is 60. (Lighthouse costs 60 )
• 45 overflow was actually worth 2,5*45 = 112 rounded down on the next turn. (100% base, 100% marble, 50% wonder building). When building GT, multiplier is 1,5.
• Base for forests in BFC is 30. They were worth 75 (2,5*30 = 75) before, now they are worth only 45. (1,5*30 = 45)

A bit tedious at first, I know, but it really feels good to predict things.

will be making my move very soon, do you want me to chop the mountain (extra mine would be great) or extra grassland (that will make 3 farms on grass we'll have, not inc. the farm we'll kill one day on the plain).

Chop the mountain (hill) first. We'll need the mine first.

 

[shikhee]

Right... I got this far:

t85/0 :
* Build: swapped to Scout (2t), 1sci max growth
* Trade: 200 gold to Asoka for Literacy (no immediate happy change)
* Tech: switched to Archery
* Worker: move to 1W of city (slightly better advantage in our defenses having that non-forested)
* Warrior: continued South-Eastish

Hit the turn button...

Frederick wants to trade his Calender for our Code of Laws + 90gold

thoughts ?

I'm inclined yes, because Calender + Monarchy are 2 major tech trades we want... but I'm not sure how this affects our relations with everyone else.

 

[shikhee]

I also just realised that he shouldn't have any WYFBTALJFSDNFAOSIJFDAS points against us yet, and is Jewish which is a big contender for our soon to be chosen religion. But does this mean we should trade CoL for everything we can now so other civs don't cash in on it ?

PS - can i email someone screenshots to post ? i don't have any easy + simple server access right now to upload them anywhere.

 

[shikhee]

CRAP!

I accepted the trade, while he is -1 with a few friends, he is one of the lowest techs and we haven't traded with him yet, and Calender is high priority on our trade list. But now Julius has -4 "You traded with our worst enemy" even though he was equal -1 with Fred as where a few others (who are unaffected by this trade).

Any suggestions to cool things over with JC as he is the major power right now ?

 

[shikhee]

Flop this... now JC has a trade on the table...

Horseback Riding for Drama + 40gold. We don't need or want it, but will it help to make JC happy with us again ?

I'm unable to save because its in a trade screen, I don't recall ever seeing a generous trade even make +4 (maybe we should give him Drama ?!?!).

Sorry guys - I've never had a knack for this.

 

[shikhee]

At this point I'm going to say no to JC's trade, because I don't think it will make him any friendlier to us (I'm sure we're better off giving him something) and it is another solid nudge to go the Jewish direction so he's going to be our enemy anyway. Unless we did get Buddhism but even that might only make him "even" against us and still possible to wage war.

 

[shikhee]

hope you guys don't mind me talking to myself for a while

 

[shikhee]

JC is very friendly with Washington, but 0 points with Liz and Asoka... can we use that to stop JC marching armies to our borders ?

okay - wonderful... i was trying to take screens of the diplomacy which was missing too many civs - tried playing with my resolutions and the game crashed.

 

[shikhee]

i just tried reloading any autosaves but nothing was saved in the 1.5 turns i played.

does Alan H need to be consulted ? I'm more than happy for someone else to take over, obviously I can't play at a time when others are around for advice, and I'm confident with city management but definately not diplomacy.

here's my full notes:
t85/0 :
* Build: swapped to Scout (2t), 1sci max growth
* Trade: 200 gold to Asoka for Literacy (no immediate happy change)
* Tech: switched to Archery
* Worker: move to 1W of city (slightly better advantage in our defenses having that non-forested)
* Warrior: continued South-Eastish

t86/1 :
* Trade: Calender with Frederick for Code of Laws + 90 gold (reason: he is -1 with a few friends, but he is one of the lowest techs and we haven't traded with him yet, and its a key trade for our mid-term goals). But crap, now Julius has -4 "You traded with our worst enemy" even though he was equal -1 with a few other civs who did not alter their status.
* Trade: JC offered Horseback Riding for Drama + 40 gold; I declined (we don't need Horseback, and I'm not confident this trade would increase our relations with JC).
* Archer (cue Civil Service)

sorry guys - i am quite happy not playing and enjoy being part of the team and discussion... learning heaps.

 

[kcd_swede]

Hi Shikee. I think you will need to PM AlanH and tell him what happened. Then you will have to replay from the latest save (hopefully you have autosave after every 1 turns, if not, then from the last save you do have), and make all the same choices again - even if we don't like how it turned out. Screenshots aren't that important, better to just write down the pertinent info if it is a computer-crash maker.

Sorry I wasn't able to advise you during your turns. I saw you asking for help but was busy with something else. Also, my advice probably isn't worth much since I think I am one of the weakest players on our team.

For future, if you are unsure about a trade offer, just do like Nancy Reagen (Just say no). Then you can save and if we decide to make the trade we can approach the AI on the next turn and hope he/she hasn't changed his/her mind.

We were bound to get a diplo hit sooner or later. Hopefully JC is an understanding fellow. And you never know, maybe Fred doesn't make the same offer when you replay (check with AlanH by PM before replaying, though). But aren't we trading OB with Fred anyhow, or did I get confused?

Edit to add: In spirit of fair competition, I would think that even if Fred doesn't offer the trade we ought to contact him and make the trade. That's what the no replay rule is for.

 

[Yamps]

Shikhee, s**t happens. It is important to learn from the mistakes we make.

I've been online when you started playing, but I had to do some work. Bad luck, we could have prevented this.

Like Kcd_swede said, AlanH needs to be contacted. You should have modified the CivilizationIV.ini file and set AutoSaveInterval = 1. We talked about that before.

Everything has to be replayed. Fred maybe won't offer the trade, but I fear we'll be forced to offer that bad trade to Fred ourselves.

Here are some other comments:

This incident has thought us that it would be prudent to write down the current relations on a piece of paper before playing.

Melior reported that Fred is JC's worst enemy. Open borders won't cause penalties on their own. At least not right away, probably not ever. The trade needs to be lopsided to get penalties, giving a monopoly tech for example. OB can give -1 if JC asks us to stop trading with Fred and we refuse. This is the type of situation to alt+tab and post, but try sth like that with a test game to see how stable is your system.

The trades that AI offer can be offered by us in most cases. (99%) Anyway, the trades AI offer are usually bad for us. We should make choices, not them.

Regarding the server access and screen shot uploading, it should be as easy as sending an email. I'm using www.mediafire.com, but I think people here mostly use http://www.imagebucket.com/ and http://photobucket.com/.
Anyway, you can send me an email, no problem.

Personally, I don't mind you playing on. Mistakes happen, life goes on. Just try to be prepared as much as possible for your turn set and in the future just say no!

 

[vra379971]

Shikhee, s**t happens. It is important to learn from the mistakes we make.

I've been online when you started playing, but I had to do some work. Bad luck, we could have prevented this.

Like Kcd_swede said, AlanH needs to be contacted. You should have modified the CivilizationIV.ini file and set AutoSaveInterval = 1. We talked about that before.

Everything has to be replayed. Fred maybe won't offer the trade, but I fear we'll be forced to offer that bad trade to Fred ourselves.

Here are some other comments:

This incident has thought us that it would be prudent to write down the current relations on a piece of paper before playing.

Melior reported that Fred is JC's worst enemy. Open borders won't cause penalties on their own. At least not right away, probably not ever. The trade needs to be lopsided to get penalties, giving a monopoly tech for example. OB can give -1 if JC asks us to stop trading with Fred and we refuse. This is the type of situation to alt+tab and post, but try sth like that with a test game to see how stable is your system.

The trades that AI offer can be offered by us in most cases. (99%) Anyway, the trades AI offer are usually bad for us. We should make choices, not them.

Regarding the server access and screen shot uploading, it should be as easy as sending an email. I'm using www.mediafire.com, but I think people here mostly use http://www.imagebucket.com/ and http://photobucket.com/.
Anyway, you can send me an email, no problem.

Personally, I don't mind you playing on. Mistakes happen, life goes on. Just try to be prepared as much as possible for your turn set and in the future just say no!

Yeah, sounds about right.

 

[shikhee]

I've been online when you started playing, but I had to do some work. Bad luck, we could have prevented this.

I don't think there was much we could do, I didn't have many other options for time to play (early in the week is much better for me), it was getting late for me and I can't leave my computer on overnight. I have sent Alan a message.

My system does run very stable, but I have not play with the Civ resolutions very much before which crashed it.

I was able to replay *exactly* as it happened (first time I tried I forgot to do the Asoka trade, on the next turn Fred + JCs trades did not show up... 2nd time it was exactly the same).

Also as far as I can tell, JC was equally -1 with 3 other Civs, so how he was Fred's worst enemy (any more than the others) I do not understand. We do have OB with Fred (and our Cartographers were in fact in his land at the time). I thought the trade would be best because Calender was on our priority list with Monarchy, giving Fred a tech was okay because he seemed to be one of the lowest tech-civ on the land. No other Civs took any offense at this trade but Julius Ceaser.

 

[vra379971]

Seing how Caeser has always been a hot tempered whelp, and he's not on our border (and I believe is also not Jew) it should be just fine. And frankly, I'd like to keep the balance of power on our landmass as stable as possible, so helping Fred is fine with me.

 

[shikhee]

Yup, Ceaser is a Buddhist, Fred's a Jew (another reason I accepted the trade)

 

[Yamps]

Also as far as I can tell, JC was equally -1 with 3 other Civs, so how he was Fred's worst enemy (any more than the others) I do not understand.

This is a very good question. I've also checked the last available save, JC had -1 with Liz, -1 with Capac and -1 with Fred, but was annoyed with Liz! By that logic, Liz should have been his worst enemy! He was pleased with Capac and cautious with Fred. However, Melior did post that Fred was JC's worst enemy.

I don't think there was much we could do, I didn't have many other options for time to play (early in the week is much better for me), it was getting late for me and I can't leave my computer on overnight.

That wasn't a situation for leaving the computer on, that's the point. We can offer the trades ourselves. That trade by itself wasn't good enough IMO. We gave a monopoly tech and 90 gold for Calendar.

Anyway, what's the situation with JC? Can we sign open borders with him? This is a very bad situation, now we are his worst enemies, right? I think we should give him sth to compensate bad relations. I fear that Drama will have to go, he almost researched COL. (judging by the last available save)

What are the relations with Capac? We didn't open with him because of worst enemies considerations before.