SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[shikhee]

Hauyna asks for OB - I'm declining, we don't need to enter his borders and I think he's a bit of grey area for our diplomacy.

 

[shikhee]

that S.O.B Julius has demanded we give him Literature (even though we are total +3 with him! ack!).

I presume we give it to him ?

 

[Yamps]

Hauyna asks for OB - I'm declining, we don't need to enter his borders and I think he's a bit of grey area for our diplomacy.

I agree

We are avoiding Washington and Izzy potentially to ask us to stop trading with him.

Regarding the Monarchy trade, please don't trade that from Washington. We want Feudalism from him.

I suggest the following: trade Monarchy from Capac.

There is a small risk, but I'm very certain that we'll get away with it. Izzy could mind, we are not certain who is hers worst enemy: Alex, Capac or LIz. Keep contacting her, watch her first sentence, she will tell. She is at war with Alex, he should be hers worst enemy.

Washington could mind the trade. Make sure that the trade is not too lopsided, don't give him too much. I expect that he won't mind too much or not at all.

@tribute
Yes, pay the tribute. Melior explained that paying tribute doesn't cause penalties.

 

[shikhee]

as for Huayna, Washington + Isabella is Annoyed, Most Cautious + Asoka is Pleased.

Diplomacy wise, I like the trade with Washi best (won't Asoka be good for Feudalism too ?)

 

[shikhee]

Is OB with Kublai okay ? a few friends aren't friendly with him but we can't explore the southern tip of our island without it.

 

[shikhee]

Okay... I think I'm calling it quits... I've just founded Civil Service, I have not traded for Monarchy but the same possibilities are all still there.

Here's my full notes:
t85/0 :
* Build: swapped to Scout (2t), 1sci max growth
* Trade: 200 gold to Asoka for Literacy (no immediate happy change)
* Tech: switched to Archery
* Worker: move to 1W of city (slightly better advantage in our defenses having that non-forested)
* Warrior: continued South-Eastish

t86/1 :
* Trade: Calender with Frederick for Code of Laws + 90 gold (reason: he is -1 with a few friends, but he is one of the lowest techs and we haven't traded with him yet, and its a key trade for our mid-term goals). But crap, now Julius has -4 "You traded with our worst enemy" even though he was equal -1 with a few other civs who did not alter their status.
* Trade: JC offered Horseback Riding for Drama + 40 gold; I declined (we don't need Horseback, and I'm not confident this trade would increase our relations with JC).
* Archery (cue Civil Service)
* Whip Scout (maxed food, back to size 8 in 1t)
* Warrior: continued SE, found Spanish borders (with a little bit of coast)
* Trade: gave Drama to JC, +4 trade relations forthright (so back to total +1)

t87/2 :
* Colossus + Chicken Itza (found in other lands)
* Size 8
* Worker chops Forest (wasn't fully prechopped)
* Scout: Exploring in SW general direction (opposite to Warriors SE), gave Jungle upgrade (figure extra jungle/forest movement is the most useful if he gets another upgrade)

t88/3 :
* Scout: SW - Alex is on the other side of Liz and both share a coast.
* Warrior: Finds Berlin and amazes at its glory

t89/4 :
* Meet Kublai Khan (+1 years of peace/-1 traded with enemies)
* GE built into city
* JC doesn't hate us as much (traded with enemies now only -3)
* Warrior: sees Roman camps in the far distance, due south of our gracious metropolis, at least 2 other civs to cross for them to find us.
* Scout: Sees how strong the border between Alex, Huayna and Fred is, kicks fence, holds fine.
* Worker: builds mine

t90/5 :
* Scout: Germans have some wide-ranging borders, while Incan's have two seperate culture-borders split.
* Warrior: Rather than risk upsetting more friends by trading OB with Romans, they scouted his borders eyeing the Monghols on the other side.

t91/6 :
* Scout + Warrior: continue exploring, I think we are getting close to the bottom of the map... Warrior will start to return home for defense.

t92/7 :
* Fred demands we cancel with Alex: we say no! -1 hit with Fred.
* Washi wants to trade Monarchy for CoL + 100g. Decline for now.
* Globe Theatre built, cue Archer (back to 2 scientists)
* Traded Open Borders with JC

t93/8 :
* Hauyna asked for Open Borders, declined for now.
* Worker builds Farm 1E (of city)

t94/9 :
* JC demands Literature; we cower like dogs
* Kublai offers to trade Open Borders; declined for now
* Archer built (upgrade: city defense)
* Warrior is return up through the centre

t97/12:
* Archer built (upgrade: hills) moved to hill square (cue Aqueduct)
* Civil Service founded (cue Meditation)
* Size 10

 

[shikhee]

 

[classical_hero]

Massive crosspost, so ignore this post.

 

[Yamps]

as for Huayna, Washington + Isabella is Annoyed, Most Cautious + Asoka is Pleased.

Diplomacy wise, I like the trade with Washi best (won't Asoka be good for Feudalism too ?)

Well, there are other techs to trade for. We will soon lose Capac as a trading partner because of WFYBTA, I would like to trade with him before we lose him. Izzy is annoyed, but is Capac her worst enemy? Even if he is, we could get away with one not lopsided trade.

Is OB with Kublai okay ? a few friends aren't friendly with him but we can't explore the southern tip of our island without it.

Here is a trick to use:

When we open borders we can't break the deal for 10 turns. (check the exact number please, I think that's on epic speed.) I'm pretty sure that no one can ask us to stop that deal for that period. We could open, explore and close borders. However, I'm not 100% percent sure on this. I've tried this yesterday in a game and it seemed to work.

 

[shikhee]

and here is the turn logs...

Turn 85, 750 BC: You have discovered Archery!

Turn 86, 725 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 86, 725 BC: You have trained a Scout in Beijing. Work has now begun on Globe Theatre.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land!
Turn 86, 725 BC: The Colossus has been built in a far away land!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 87, 700 BC: Hypatia has been born in a far away land!

Turn 88, 675 BC: Imhotep has been born in Beijing!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Zoroaster has been born in a far away land!

Turn 89, 650 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 90, 625 BC: Asoka adopts Vassalage!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Asoka adopts Serfdom!

Turn 91, 600 BC: Chuang-Tzu has been born in a far away land!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Washington adopts Vassalage!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Washington adopts Serfdom!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Elizabeth's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 92, 575 BC: Zu Chongzhi has been born in Athens!

Turn 93, 550 BC: Archimedes has been born in a far away land!
Turn 93, 550 BC: Heron has been born in a far away land!

Turn 94, 525 BC: Al-Kindi has been born in a far away land!

Turn 96, 475 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 96, 475 BC: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!

 

[Yamps]

Who is next for play? Vra, please post the roster.

 

[kcd_swede]

Funny that... now Washington has asked to trade Monarchy for CoL + 100. hehe

decline just for now, maybe pick up again when theres more consensus

Good job. I'm sure he'll accept something close to that (maybe get even more cash from him?) if consensus is to offer him that trade.

 

[Melior Traiano]

To make sure you're reading the 'Glance' chart correctly, hover the mouse pointer over each number & read the tooltip that pops up.

Caesar is being pretty forgiving about our 'trading with worst enemy' gaffe. The penalty is already down to -1. He's a decent choice to cultivate as a PA partner. His fave civic is Rep, which is what we're going to be using the rest of the way, so we should really be racking up the 'wisely chosen your civics' bonus once Constitution is discovered.

I would lean toward trading CoL to Liz for Monarchy, and save CS for a Feudalism trade. Looking at the 'Glance' screen, Liz is the least liked by Caesar, but since we actually have to throw in 80g cash to make the trade, it's unlikely we'll get a 'trading with worst enemy' hit for making the deal. I don't think we should break out CS monopoly as yet.

 

[Yamps]

I've looked at the save and our position looks very good.

It is interesting how a -4 penalty because of the worst enemies trade almost disappeared in 10 turns, it is at -1 only now. JC really liked Drama and then he asked for Literature too, he is pleased at us now with a total of +5!

There are lot of considerations to do as usual. Diplomacy is the most important thing at this point, we need a detailed diplomacy plan.

One minor note: although the chosen promotions feel right, it is better do delay them. Hypothetically, those archers could have become attacking Cho-Ko-Nu or rifleman one day.

Regarding the trades, we need a complete plan. We should keep our monopoly tech CS for at least one turn and trade COL. COL opens up CS, we'll have CS on many civs on the next turn. Melior Traiano was right back before:

but I swear I've seen AIs trade away a tech I just traded them to their buddies on the next turn on Immortal.

Yeah, this happened to me too in a game I played yesterday. We should be careful with CS.

Here is the WFYBTA limit book account:

Spoiler :

We only acquired Calendar from Fred. This means that all civs except Fred noted that. We didn't know Kublai at that time so his account is clean. Our score is getting high, we could soon be in the first 50%. Unknown civs also count, it is not easy to tell.

Izzy 4/6
Toku 8/6
Washington 6/12
Asoka 7/12
Liz 8/18

Alex,Capac,JC 1/6
Fred, Kublai 0/12

 

[Yamps]

Caesar is being pretty forgiving about our 'trading with worst enemy' gaffe. The penalty is already down to -1. He's a decent choice to cultivate as a PA partner. His fave civic is Rep, which is what we're going to be using the rest of the way, so we should really be racking up the 'wisely chosen your civics' bonus once Constitution is discovered.

This is an option, but there are some problems. We still don't have Buddhism and maybe we won't get it at all. Positive relations might melt with time. I suggest that we keep JC as a secondary target and Asoka as a primary target. Judging by the scores, Asoka has three cities. Asoka has highest power and GNP, too. We shall become friends soon when we adopt Judaism. Relations with JC won't drop too much because of that and he will have Constitution as you said. Constitution comes a bit late, but that's why I'm suggesting JC as a secondary target.

I would lean toward trading CoL to Liz for Monarchy, and save CS for a Feudalism trade. Looking at the 'Glance' screen, Liz is the least liked by Caesar, but since we actually have to throw in 80g cash to make the trade, it's unlikely we'll get a 'trading with worst enemy' hit for making the deal. I don't think we should break out CS monopoly as yet.

I agree about the CoL trade and CS monopoly keeping on the first turn. I have different ideas for the trades:

1) Monarchy from Capac for Col and Literature.
2) Construction from Kublai for CoL and Literature. OB with Kublai, too.
3) Currency and 10 gold from Fred for Drama and Literature. Note that JC doesn't hate Fred anymore, he hates Liz now.

I don't expect negative points because of this trades. If something does happen, we can use the 'Drama tactic' again.

 

[vra379971]

I will post the roster shortly, but as I mentioned before, it would be infinately helpful if every player would POST THE ENTIRE IN-CITY SCREEN WITHOUT CROPPING. (So we can see all the city data.)


So, if some could upload that it would be great, thanks.

 

[Yamps]

I will post the roster shortly, but as I mentioned before, it would be infinately helpful if every player would POST THE ENTIRE IN-CITY SCREEN WITHOUT CROPPING. (So we can see all the city data.)


So, if some could upload that it would be great, thanks.

Ask and it will be given to you. Here's the city screen:

Spoiler :

Health is at 10, but we still haven't connected the Sheep, road is needed. Cow is waiting for the pasture, too. Aqueduct will bring +2 health and harbor 3 health (crab, fish, clam). That's 17 health! We'll be needing more farms. Forrest grassland near Washington's land can be irrigated.

However, we could lose the cow, the tile is at 53%. On the other hand, New York could get culture razed so we'll get the cow back. Nottingham is toasted, the city tile is only 55% English. New York is at 71%. We are going to bring more culture pressure, first with NE. I expect that those cities won't make it till the end.

Regarding the tile usage, I would switch from coast to a grassland farm. That way city will grow in 5 turns and aqueduct will still be built in 4 turns.

EDIT: are we going to pillage our old plains farm now? Maybe a forest grows there. But I'm getting sentimentally attached to that farm, maybe it's bringing us good luck.

 

[Melior Traiano]

The city should really be building NE first. Roading the Sheep will keep us in the clear as far as is concerned. Whipping overflow into NE seems counterproductive, since it can built in 5 turns anyway.

Also, a 2 for 1 civic switch to Bureaucracy + Caste System is in order, then set for max growth, followed by max scientists. That'll kick the SE/SSE into high gear.

HC will also go for the same deal as Liz, so it'd be better to make the swap with him. Again, we shouldn't pick up any 'trade with worst enemy' penalties with this trade.

PA with Asoka is also a good idea, but isn't it impossible to PA with the score leader? Also, I suspect Asoka will not keep his religion once FR becomes available, so I'm not sure we can count on common religion to befriend him. His favorite civic is US, which we will want nothing to do with in this game.

 

[shikhee]

City screen - sorry, forgot to nab that one! Was working that coast because the farm only got built that turn. I'd suggest priorities for the worker would be #2 Farm (2E of city), then road Sheep.

Revolt straight away to Beurocracy + Caste (1 turn).

That said, are we going to even use Caste for a while ? I've almost never used it in any of my games because I can usually have as many specialists as I'm comfortable using anyway, and its a higher upkeep to Slavery and we can't hurry production anymore.

Is it worth building a Temple after the Aqueduct (culture handy, but primarily for a Priest). I'm a big fan of Monastery's as well (culture v.handy at this point, and +10% science will be quite big for our city). But of course National Epic to make our +17 GP +34 would be marvelous (does it work like that ? or is it +100% to a base value?)

1N Farm - it actually can come in handy now and again, because its better than using a forest when we are trying to maximise production + growth in the city. Forest would be better long term, but I say only raze when our worker has no priorities left (which I see as Farm, Sheep, Cow, Iron ... a good 20 turns or so away at least).

Also very happy we got a Great Engineer

Sorry I took so long to play my round, early week is no problem but late week + weekends I rarely have time to play Civ. I'm also on a very steep learning curve here (and trying to remember 4-5 forum pages of notes and ideas every turn is hard!). The unit upgrades I thought had been discussed and no alternative ideas presented.

Nice to be back in my more comfortable advisory and know-it-all(cough) seat again

 

[Yamps]

The city should really be building NE first. Roading the Sheep will keep us in the clear as far as is concerned. Whipping overflow into NE seems counterproductive, since it can built in 5 turns anyway.

Also, a 2 for 1 civic switch to Bureaucracy + Caste System is in order, then set for max growth, followed by max scientists. That'll kick the SE/SSE into high gear.

HC will also go for the same deal as Liz, so it'd be better to make the swap with him. Again, we shouldn't pick up any 'trade with worst enemy' penalties with this trade.

Quite right.

PA with Asoka is also a good idea, but isn't it impossible to PA with the score leader? Also, I suspect Asoka will not keep his religion once FR becomes available, so I'm not sure we can count on common religion to befriend him. His favorite civic is US, which we will want nothing to do with in this game.

Excellent points! I've checked an old test game. My PA partner was Isabella. She was second in score and power, Cathrine from the other continent was slightly stronger. I've also checked the article about PA again: Permanent Aliance Guide by WastinTime.
There is nothing there about the score. It only states power is important. We mustn't be first on the power graph (no problem ) and our PA candidate mustn't be first, too. Melior, do you have some other information?

You are also right about the free religion. I've actually finished a game involving Asoka recently. He switched to free religion quite fast. He had a lot of religions in that game, though.

This means we can't really rely on Asoka, JC might be the best bet after all. I would really want us to get Buddhism and adopt Pacifism but Izzy is not sending missionaries because of the war. She can send them, she has open borders with Asoka. I propose we stop the war with Alex now. Paying CoL to him would be enough. We are at +3 with Izzy, we can stand the hit. We can give her sth to keep her happy if we have to.