SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects
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acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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I think that deer resource changes things a bit?
can someone test this and see years for henge and pyramids?
worker still first, but we go hunting->masonry->mysticism->wheel. this will grow city to cize 3 and work both marble and stone. This should get us Stonehenge little later than our initial plan, but will get us pyramids about the same without need to chop (or maybe one forest).
someone test this quickly, i'm kinda busy
oh and notice we'r kinda blocked south? Meaning less cultural pressure, meaning, maybe just get pyramids, for 100% GE, meaning we also get 100% GL with it? Discuss! I would stil go for Shenge.
can someone test this and see years for henge and pyramids?
worker still first, but we go hunting->masonry->mysticism->wheel. this will grow city to cize 3 and work both marble and stone. This should get us Stonehenge little later than our initial plan, but will get us pyramids about the same without need to chop (or maybe one forest).
someone test this quickly, i'm kinda busy
oh and notice we'r kinda blocked south? Meaning less cultural pressure, meaning, maybe just get pyramids, for 100% GE, meaning we also get 100% GL with it? Discuss! I would stil go for Shenge.
marconos
Prince
I'm really cautious about chopping very much. We are really good to need those forest for healthy ... REALLY need as the city starts to grow.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is getting a couple workboats out hit the clams. With fishing + workboats those tiles generate +6 food (3 extra citizens). So I just want to voice my caution for doing much chopping.
For improvements, remember early war == no improvements(they will all be pillaged) so we need to make sure we have a decent number of unchopped forests for working. Also, crabs should rarely get pillaged.
I agree our targets should be Stonehenge, Parthenon and then GL. It just makes sense and culture push is going to be insane.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is getting a couple workboats out hit the clams. With fishing + workboats those tiles generate +6 food (3 extra citizens). So I just want to voice my caution for doing much chopping.
For improvements, remember early war == no improvements(they will all be pillaged) so we need to make sure we have a decent number of unchopped forests for working. Also, crabs should rarely get pillaged.
I agree our targets should be Stonehenge, Parthenon and then GL. It just makes sense and culture push is going to be insane.
I think that deer resource changes things a bit?
can someone test this and see years for henge and pyramids?
worker still first, but we go hunting->masonry->mysticism->wheel. this will grow city to cize 3 and work both marble and stone. This should get us Stonehenge little later than our initial plan, but will get us pyramids about the same without need to chop (or maybe one forest).
someone test this quickly, i'm kinda busy
oh and notice we'r kinda blocked south? Meaning less cultural pressure, meaning, maybe just get pyramids, for 100% GE, meaning we also get 100% GL with it? Discuss! I would stil go for Shenge.
Someone please do check it, but I doubt we'd get away with that gamble.
Yamps
Deity
Go Suspects, go! 
Ok, first things first:
1.) Settling
Settle in place. We can't lose access to water, we might need it one day.
2)Opening
Well, that deer rises some questions. Let me ask one thing first, is it allowed to make a test map looking like that screenshot now when we are playing? If it is, I'll make it and test it.
My initial opinion is this:
If we go for the deer, we'll lose SH. Well, needs testing.
I thing we should go with the strategy acidsatyr posted, but with some changes:
This means barracks will be built after the wonders, and there will be hammer deterioration because they'll be too long in the queue. Worker will be built after masonry so we can start with Pyramids. This way we won't lose hammers. Mysticism third. At this point we need to consider hunting before BW.
We don't really have much time to do much chopping, 3 forests for Pyramids max. Parthenon maybe feels better, but we can start with Pyramids sooner. Vra took all three in his testings! But we must be careful not to become a big fat sitting duck.
If the improvements do get pillaged, by the time they do, we will have profited from them already!
Regarding workboats to early, that strategy proved too slow in my test games.
Ok, first things first:
1.) Settling
Settle in place. We can't lose access to water, we might need it one day.
2)Opening
Well, that deer rises some questions. Let me ask one thing first, is it allowed to make a test map looking like that screenshot now when we are playing? If it is, I'll make it and test it.
My initial opinion is this:
If we go for the deer, we'll lose SH. Well, needs testing.
I thing we should go with the strategy acidsatyr posted, but with some changes:This means barracks will be built after the wonders, and there will be hammer deterioration because they'll be too long in the queue. Worker will be built after masonry so we can start with Pyramids. This way we won't lose hammers. Mysticism third. At this point we need to consider hunting before BW.
We don't really have much time to do much chopping, 3 forests for Pyramids max. Parthenon maybe feels better, but we can start with Pyramids sooner. Vra took all three in his testings! But we must be careful not to become a big fat sitting duck.
If the improvements do get pillaged, by the time they do, we will have profited from them already!
Regarding workboats to early, that strategy proved too slow in my test games.
lurker's comment: Hi guys. Balbes has offered to join you as a non-playing advisor. I'm sure he can help your discussions about this game, so I've added him you your team list. Please feel free to take full advantage of his experience.
Yamps
Deity
To get PA you need to be in great relation with the chosen civ. So they will vote for you anyway. On the other hand forming PA only makes relations worse with everyone else.
Right now i think diplo win seems like the fastest way to win (i hope you guys are ready to WIN THIS!), unless we make tech breaktru and just finish everyone fast enough
No, that wasn't the point of the question.
When it comes down to voting, we are like a one nation (in my test game they voted for or aginst Qin/Izzy alliance). In that game I had great relations with the whole continent, there was only one religion. But, Izzy switched to free religion after PA and no one liked her so much as before. Also, monarchists from the continent chose Cathy from other continent!
So the question was, do we need to pay attention what are our PA partner relations with other civs? I think we do, and that is a problem. Btw, We can't ask our partner to change civics, this is SO broken!
Just in case you are wondering, I still haven't finished that one. When I left it, Qin and Izzy were crushing Monty down, keeping tech parity. I think I'll be struggling till the end to get a space victory. Hoping for my first deity win here!
I haven't reloaded at all, although I tested the starting strategy with this map a few times and I made that map. The most importnat thing is that I've never been declared on that map, I don't understand way.Take a high five for reading my long posts!
Yamps
Deity
Well, we are getting stronger by the minute!
Greetings to Balbes
, one of the GOTM champions! 
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
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First of all, welcome Balbes
2nd.
Settler is settled in place, anything else will not work of course. Take a look at that position now.
It turns out we won't be deprived of food at all. Geography also shows mountains around us and we won't have as much of a culture pressure as we initially suspected.
Now bear with me here. We don't want Stonehenge. I'll try to explain why. First, culture pressure will be solved exclusively by pyramids. That's the only early wonder we really need guys. Second. We don't need mysticism at all, and those few turns might prove crucial when we race to Great Library. The GL is a MUST with those extra scientists and representation. In fact, pyramids can be completed successfully without chopping a single tree, and going for Bronze Working. In my test game I did it around 2450-2500bc.
I never went mysticism, bronze working, animal husbandry, archery. Instead I went hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->pottery->writing->alphabet. All techs I was missing I got from trading away alphabet, and I got them all so early that researching them directly before alphabet just doesn’t seem optimal. Next was polytheism and then literature, which was completed in 925bc. I could’ve finish it with GE that popped in the meantime, but I settled it instead, and just chopped a forest.
Scary thing is that there were two civs (at least that i know of on our continent), that had literature BEFORE me. It would be impossible to get Great Library if we went Stonehenge (we would not need mysticism, nor bronze working to hurry pyramids!). If you think you can get GL faster then that please play a test game and post it. AI gets it around 900BC. Don't forget there are 17 civs in the game.
This also means that after Code of Laws, Civil Service->Paper->Education, Liberalism can be discovered around 0 AD, which is huge. All this depends on getting Great Library and settling each scientist (except first one->academy) in Beijing. We also have less gpp pollution.
To recite:
hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->potery->library->alphabet->poly->lit.
Getting both GL and Pyramids is crucial. Beijing will always have something to build, and Stonehenge, while initially looked really nice is just something that we might regret giong after!
Convince me otherwise if you don’t agree with me!
2nd.
Settler is settled in place, anything else will not work of course. Take a look at that position now.
It turns out we won't be deprived of food at all. Geography also shows mountains around us and we won't have as much of a culture pressure as we initially suspected.
Now bear with me here. We don't want Stonehenge. I'll try to explain why. First, culture pressure will be solved exclusively by pyramids. That's the only early wonder we really need guys. Second. We don't need mysticism at all, and those few turns might prove crucial when we race to Great Library. The GL is a MUST with those extra scientists and representation. In fact, pyramids can be completed successfully without chopping a single tree, and going for Bronze Working. In my test game I did it around 2450-2500bc.
I never went mysticism, bronze working, animal husbandry, archery. Instead I went hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->pottery->writing->alphabet. All techs I was missing I got from trading away alphabet, and I got them all so early that researching them directly before alphabet just doesn’t seem optimal. Next was polytheism and then literature, which was completed in 925bc. I could’ve finish it with GE that popped in the meantime, but I settled it instead, and just chopped a forest.
Scary thing is that there were two civs (at least that i know of on our continent), that had literature BEFORE me. It would be impossible to get Great Library if we went Stonehenge (we would not need mysticism, nor bronze working to hurry pyramids!). If you think you can get GL faster then that please play a test game and post it. AI gets it around 900BC. Don't forget there are 17 civs in the game.
This also means that after Code of Laws, Civil Service->Paper->Education, Liberalism can be discovered around 0 AD, which is huge. All this depends on getting Great Library and settling each scientist (except first one->academy) in Beijing. We also have less gpp pollution.
To recite:
hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->potery->library->alphabet->poly->lit.
Getting both GL and Pyramids is crucial. Beijing will always have something to build, and Stonehenge, while initially looked really nice is just something that we might regret giong after!
Convince me otherwise if you don’t agree with me!
Balbes
Instigator
Greetings, gentlemen. It is my understanding that I have been assigned to this new team in a capacity similar to that of an academic advisor. I am not going to tell you exactly what to do, but I will try to help with strategic planning, and hopefully offer frequent feedback on your progress. Our goal is not so much winning any laurels, but rather becoming better players and getting through Deity in one piece.
For a start, I'd like to emphasize one peculiar difference between deity and the lower levels. At monarch or a similar level, you can succesfully compete with the AI civs in every aspect of the game, even those areas where you were initially handicapped because of your civ's traits or your starting location. Of course, you will do even better in those areas where you had an advantage from the start, but even your weak points can me made strong. At Deity, you can only expect to be competitive in those few strong areas. So, that is what you need to do in order to succeed. Do not try to salvage your weaknesses; rather, play to your strengths and abandon your weaknesses.
This is why we cannot really get down to planning before we know everything about our starting position, so that we know what the strengths are. Moving the warrior and settling the city to reveal the workable resources should provide enough material for a concrete discussion. Also, it will be prudent to make a test map and play out several different openings after all the immediately available terrain has been revealed.
For a start, I'd like to emphasize one peculiar difference between deity and the lower levels. At monarch or a similar level, you can succesfully compete with the AI civs in every aspect of the game, even those areas where you were initially handicapped because of your civ's traits or your starting location. Of course, you will do even better in those areas where you had an advantage from the start, but even your weak points can me made strong. At Deity, you can only expect to be competitive in those few strong areas. So, that is what you need to do in order to succeed. Do not try to salvage your weaknesses; rather, play to your strengths and abandon your weaknesses.
This is why we cannot really get down to planning before we know everything about our starting position, so that we know what the strengths are. Moving the warrior and settling the city to reveal the workable resources should provide enough material for a concrete discussion. Also, it will be prudent to make a test map and play out several different openings after all the immediately available terrain has been revealed.
Balbes
Instigator
OK, so our first moves are finished. I agree with the direction the warrior went to, and I also agree with settling in place.
Now it is the time for that test map.
Beelining to Alphabet is a common and powerful strategy in Monarch+ games.
Now it is the time for that test map.
Beelining to Alphabet is a common and powerful strategy in Monarch+ games.
marconos
Prince
I agree with the proposals here that Acid has made. Makes sense, we are going to LOVE having those mountains.
What is our actual build order we are going to follow? Worker then Pyramids or Worker, Barraks, Walls, Pyramids, archer?
I want to make sure that
A -- we get the pyramids, we cannot afford to miss a wonder that we are shooting for
B -- we need to have a high enough power factor to not get attacked or have the defense to live if we do get attacked
What is our actual build order we are going to follow? Worker then Pyramids or Worker, Barraks, Walls, Pyramids, archer?
I want to make sure that
A -- we get the pyramids, we cannot afford to miss a wonder that we are shooting for
B -- we need to have a high enough power factor to not get attacked or have the defense to live if we do get attacked
Morganknight
Warlord
Oops, Double Post
Morganknight
Warlord
To recite:
hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->potery->library->alphabet->poly->lit.
Getting both GL and Pyramids is crucial. Beijing will always have something to build, and Stonehenge, while initially looked really nice is just something that we might regret giong after!
Convince me otherwise if you dont agree with me!
Why the early emphasis on hunting? to take advantage of the Deer?
Why not Masonry>Wheel>Hunting and get the Mids going ASAP? We can hook the deer in later, we need the Stone online right away, I think...
to quote marcanos:
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
It is going to be something like this -> worker, barraks, pyramids (as soon as we get masonry), finish barraks (yes there will be shield stagnation, but it is irrelevant), walls, by that time we build library (assign scientists + switch to Rep.), get out one more warrior, after we get Alphabet we trade for archery, get archer, and by that time we should be ready for GL.
Morganknight
Warlord
How about Worker>Warrior>Pyramids and just build the Barracks after the Pyramids without stagnation? Then trade for archery and build an archer?
marconos
Prince
I would think so, getting the deer connected up early will get us a 2nd/3rd person in the capital thus giving us more production. Now the question does become, which method generates the most early hammer so we don't miss the pyramids.
Guess the math would have to be worked out. If no one else wants to I guess I could spend some time tonight and calculate it all out (or we could just go by gut feeling
)
Yamps
Deity
@Acidsatyr
Please turn on the HOF option that shows turn timer. I have a better feeling if you say on what turn things happen. Btw, are you starting with turn 0 or turn 1? Also note that if you see a Wonder built on say turn 41, if you check the event log it states the turn it was actually built, turn 40.
Anyway, I'll go now and make us a new test map!
Please turn on the HOF option that shows turn timer. I have a better feeling if you say on what turn things happen. Btw, are you starting with turn 0 or turn 1? Also note that if you see a Wonder built on say turn 41, if you check the event log it states the turn it was actually built, turn 40.
Anyway, I'll go now and make us a new test map!
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