SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Melior Traiano]

And now, my unusually suspicious friends, the report you've been waiting for:

Immediately after hitting <Enter>, this happens:

Well, if Isabella wants Crabs, she can have em. Let's remember to cancel the tribute in 10 turns.

On the turn Alphabet came in, Moses was BIFAL.

And, drumroll please...

We have Alphabet on everyone except Liz. Asoka has Math & is willing to trade it, but won't trade for Alphabet straight up. To get Polytheism, we need to do two rounds of trading in consecutive turns, so we should probably hold off on trading with Asoka until we get Mysticism from someone else first.

So looks like we trade with Isabella & Washington in the first round & with Asoka for the second round. We could trade with only Washington in the first round & reassess available trades the following turn, but that's at least a tiny bit risky. Isabella probably has nothing to trade to Washington for his techs, but if she asks for Alphabet as a gift from him, we might end up being unable to trade the tech to her. The two of them are pleased towards one another.

If we trade with both Isabella & Washington on the same turn, we should consider who gets the lopsided deal from us for the fair & forthright trading bonus.

 

[vra379971]

Okay. Here's my somewhat crazy suggestion.

Anyone open to to going for a massive bronze statue? Or perhaps a Garden of Stone?

 

[Morganknight]

Suggestions:

Stop growth and research and focus on production for the next couple of turns to finish the Library in 3 turns...

Switch research to Drama after we trade for Mysticism ...until we determine whether we will be able to get Poly from Asoka. We know we want Drama for the Globe and as trade bait later, so whatever research we have now won't be lost...

Between Washington and Isabella, we can get Archery, Bronze, Mysticism, Animal Husbandry and Sailing. Since we are already growing a positive relationship with Isabella, (we gave her tribute) why not give her the better deal? Archery and Bronze from her and AH, Mysticism and Sailing from Washington...

At the beginning of the next turn, we will need to pause again to see what options have become available.

If we are lucky, we may be able to trade for Poly. from Asoka. Whatever the case, we need to finish the library ASAP and rush Poly>Literature as fast as we can.

Once the library is done, we should adopt representation (and slavery?) in one fell swoop.

Build Archer 1 and Archer 2 once the library is done while running maximized research - 2 science specialists and money tiles

 

[Ankka]

I would honestly prefer to cutback on scientists to get the GL faster.

I completely agree.

Also, are we in slavery? We could propably smooth some 2-4 turns off the GL building by that.

 

[classical_hero]

Well first we need to see what we can get, so once you have been able to trade away, report back so that we can get some good deals.

 

[Yamps]

Please allow for some time to think this through a bit.

I do not agree with trading to Washington on the first turn because he is very advanced, judging by the last GNP graph. Isabella only. We have an exploration problem. It is important to find new civs. We should stay cool , we don't have to spit all we have on the first two turns. We will research Literature in time I believe, it is critical that we do the trading right.

Vra, you mentioned you 'll write a set of rules when Balbes instigated you a bit.

Acid had put down some rules before. I have some ideas myself:

1) Every player is encouraged to post ideas and opinions about the position and game strategy.

2) Active player should write a pregame plan and state for how many turns approximately he will play.

3) After some discussion, we make a decision for the game play.


Btw, Melior Traiano, what graphics mod are you using? It looks good!

 

[Ankka]

Acid had put down some rules before. I have some ideas myself:

1) Every player is encouraged to post ideas and opinions about the position and game strategy.

2) Active player should write a pregame plan and state for how many turns approximately he will play.

3) After some discussion, we make a decision for the game play.

This sounds pretty good. An addition to rule #2, perhaps the approximate amount of turns should be over 5 but under 15 in any case.

Btw, Melior Traiano, what graphics mod are you using? It looks good!

Is there a graphics mod to get rid of all the gradients? Now that would be awesome.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Please allow for some time to think this through a bit.

I do not agree with trading to Washington on the first turn because he is very advanced, judging by the last GNP graph. Isabella only. We have an exploration problem. It is important to find new civs. We should stay cool , we don't have to spit all we have on the first two turns. We will research Literature in time I believe, it is critical that we do the trading right.

<snip>

Btw, Melior Traiano, what graphics mod are you using? It looks good!

If we trade only with Isabella on the first turn, she might trade for Math from Washington (they have good relations) & then we'd be out two potential teches from Washington. We really need to figure out which trade to make in the first round of trades to get the most out of this near-monopoly. I'm not sure that we want to wait around too long to make contact with other civs either, because the fact that Asoka won't trade Math for Alphabet straight up makes me think he's researching Alphabet himself. And Liz already knows Alphabet too, she might trade it around if we start trading it.

In answer to your question, the tan colored background is thanks to CivScale.

 

[Yamps]

If we trade only with Isabella on the first turn, she might trade for Math from Washington (they have good relations) & then we'd be out two potential teches from Washington. We really need to figure out which trade to make in the first round of trades to get the most out of this near-monopoly. I'm not sure that we want to wait around too long to make contact with other civs either, because the fact that Asoka won't trade Math for Alphabet straight up makes me think he's researching Alphabet himself. And Liz already knows Alphabet too, she might trade it around if we start trading it.

In answer to your question, the tan colored background is thanks to CivScale.

It isn't likely that Isabella will give or trade Alpha right away. How often did you really see sth like that? We are always afraid of that, but it never happens. AI's don't trade techs that easily, they want a fair trade while we make calculated concessions for the greather good.

We should take the techs that open up new techs first. We must get that math soon, I have always taken it in my testgames.

Btw, is a nonactive player allowed to see what trading options can we really get? I don't think that would be regarded as playing the game.

Another thing, would you please post more screenshots? (city, outside the city) I'll just download the save now, but other players would appreciate it.

 

[shikhee]

Anyone open to to going for a massive bronze statue? Or perhaps a Garden of Stone?

Colossus requires a tech that deviates way to much from our current goals (it would be handy, but only +1 gold, which is outdated at some point on max 5 squares ?). It was a make or break wonder in early civ versions, but in #4 I only build it if I'm bored.

Hanging Gardens on the other hand +1 Health which will be a major mid game problem, and the GP is for an engineer (I think its safe to say we want Engineers/Scientists equally, Priest, Artist, Merchants in roughly that order of priority). We also get double production speed.

Major problem with Hanging Gardens is that another civ already has Maths, and I can almost never trade for Maths this early on (in most games I've played).

 

[shikhee]

Also, are we in slavery? We could propably smooth some 2-4 turns off the GL building by that.

No Revolts at all so far, we are waiting for the 2 most useful to come along to Revolt at once (in the next set of rounds we'll have Representation, Slavery and Organized Religion as options - 1 is a 1 turn revolt, 2 is a 1 turn revolt, 3 is a 2 turn revolt... but which 2 and when is undecided yet, after priority builds/GL in particular looks best so far).

 

[Yamps]

We should take the techs that open up new techs first. We must get that math soon, I have always taken it in my testgames.

....and I can almost never trade for Maths this early on (in most games I've played).

I usually traded Poly + Alpha or Priesthood + Alpha for Math.
We can also research Math a bit to make it cheaper.

My first trades were AH+Mysticism+Archery for Alpha and BW+Sailing for Alpha on turn I get Alpha. This was with two backward civs. Here we have a different situation, only one backward civ to trade with for now.

So, I think we should:

1) Trade only with Isabella now, Myst+BW for Alpha. Research Math just a bit (we should use an old test game to find out how many beakers on average we need)

2) Get that Math from Asoka next turn, and possibly Ironworking from Washington next.

3) Keep exploring with a worker (just a bit at least). God willing, we will find another civ to trade with and get Poly!

 

[Morganknight]

If we are to complete the GL as quickly as possible, we must trade for Mysticism this turn. If we are only trading with Isabella (I am still skeptical about this), we must decide which three of her four techs to trade for, and gamble that she doesn't immediately trade it away herself on the coming turn.

In that worst case scenario, which of the following is the least important tech for us to have right now? Animal Husbandry, Bronzeworking or Archery? I would say AH...We need archers and Bronze will allow us to revolt to Slavery along with Representation, increase our power and reveal potential copper resource.

Ultimately it comes down to a less than stellar sure thing or a gamble that could be much worse.

 

[vra379971]

I mentioned I'd do so after my paper, which didn't get done yesterday. Will today though. And, never mind the Colossus, as I was looking a techs at 1 am and mistook the BW pic for Metal Casting. Which, in the light of day was a sill error.

 

[marconos]

With the pace that the AI researches not trading means we won't get anything. If we trade away alpha it will become cheap and I believe the AI will trade it around. If we don't trade it we may loose our window.

So in essence, what I'm saying is I'm not sure what is the "best" approach but I lean towards our initial idea of doing two turns to get poly and then driving right for lit. Delaying things is just asking for trouble. In my test game the AI researches sooooo fast.

 

[Morganknight]

Just noticed Isabella has axemen...

 

[Balbes]

Cottages? Farms? Yeah, we will chop for farms as needed actually.

Cottages on river banks are not so bad, with a financial leader.

With more food from the farms and the forests we clear to make room for the farms, will we stay out of health trouble?

But we will put those scientists to the mines from time to time probably , when building NE for example.

Running 2 scientists early on is important primarily to generate that GS for the academy in the capial, and its associated massive research boost. Afterwards, it isn't so critical.

Well, if Isabella wants Crabs, she can have em. Let's remember to cancel the tribute in 10 turns.

Good, a +1 in relations. Remember, you can still give her deer for clams.

We have Alphabet on everyone except Liz. Asoka has Math & is willing to trade it, but won't trade for Alphabet straight up.

This is a consequence of researching both Fishing and Hunting, when only one would have sufficed, and delaying the library in favor of the useless barracks and walls. Alphabet is now not a monopoly tech, and its trade value has dropped sharply. Even if Liz had just 1 turn left till Alphabet, it would've still counted as a monopoly tech for our trades.

Also, because we were late to Alphabet, everyone has Writing now, and we cannot get Mysticism for our Writing to see who offers Meditation and Polyteism, so that we could plan our next trade better.

Remember, I promised to show you how small mistakes snowball into large consequences.

Suggestions:
Once the library is done, we should adopt representation (and slavery?) in one fell swoop.

Here's a useful trick:

Poprushing wonders of the world is usually not worth it because it suffers from a +100% cost penalty. The overflow hammers from the last project, however, are not similarily affected. You can poprush the library when 1 hammer is left till completion, and the overflow of 29 hammers is carried over to the GL (multiplied by the marble bonus and the ind trait), so you have effectively poprushed the GLib.
If we hadn't had the granary erected, or the walls for that matter, we could have accelerated the GLib even more.

Keep exploring with a worker (just a bit at least). God willing, we will find another civ to trade with and get Poly!

We still need to know whether Domination without Astronomy is possible.

 

[Yamps]

I've just opened the save and I have an idea!

That graphical mod isn't telling us something very important:

Spoiler :

Toku wants Mysticism people!

1) So, we trade Alpha to Spain right away for Mysticism + BW (It openes ironworking) + if she gives sth we take it

(P.S. can I check what would Spain give, or only active player can do that?)

2) We give Mysticism to Toku right away! Will he change his mind and start trading? We have to try it.

@Fear of AI brokering techs

This is an irrational fear, like all fears. They won't trade the very next turn, I would put my hand into fire for it!

Edit 1: also note that Liz doesn't have Poly. She would be able to research Literature if she did.

Edit 2: All right! Izzy offers:

Myst+BW+Archery OR
Myst+BW+AH

I know what you will say, take the archery. But, AH is 143 beakers and Archery is 86 beakers. Also note that Izzy doesn't know how to sail so when we take the Sailing, we can sell it to her for Archery.
We also have to remember that prices go up after every trade. We need to take big stones first.

 

[vra379971]

Yamps, you can check but you can't play. And we need to see what state Toku must be at to trade...

 

[Morganknight]

You make good points. Good catch on Toku, if he opens up trade with us as a result, that will be a small coup. Even if he doesn't, it should make it easier to broker in the future.

Still nervous about Isabella trading Alphabet away, but your conviction is convincing.

Your argument for taking AH instead of Archery with our first trade is also excellent.

Vote to move ahead with the turn as you outlined and then open discussion again at the beginning of the next turn...