SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Ankka]

Wining

Spoiler :

We are doing very well, but there is still time for the "Wooden Spoon" Let's keep the good job and plan things right. I think this is optimal: rushing to Liberalism and Military tradition, avoiding war and signing a DP first. If we don't research MT first, our target civ will possibly sign DP with someone else.
After 40 turns of DP, we sign PA. Then, we can go bonk some heads for domination, or reach Space, the final frontier. Diplo isn't a likely win. However, a slight detour a bit later for the UN would be wise. We don't want to lose the game because of some bad diplomatic luck.

I agree, there's really no other way.

Economy

Spoiler :

I disagree with wonder building at this point. We don't really need wonders now.

HG. It isn't likely at all that we can get this, especially now when we are building defensive forces. Even if we could, that's simply too much hammers for only one health.

Colosus. We are only going to use the crabs IMO. That's only 2 commerce, we don't need that.

Hagia Sophia. Workers +50%, not important. Engineer points? Ok, but priests for settling are better and we will have the forge for a GE, with Pyramids. Btw, Castles don't give +1 trade route in vanilla, AFAIK.

Our strength will come from GP settling (SSE) and Pacifism. This is a killer.

I think building wonders will always be useful when there's nothing else to build. Even if we fail to grab the wonder we get cash.

Units

Spoiler :

How many units do we intend to built right now? I don't think we can afford too much units if we want to be first to Liberalism and use Pacifism. I'm for minimal defensive forces, no expeditionary stacks. In my 2 test games, only 6 military units were enough to stay out of wars before DP.

I also suggest we take it easy with axeman. They are fine now, but not good in medieval ages. Archers are better, we can upgrade them to LB if a need comes. Also, maybe one spear for now.

Axemen upgrade to maces, don't they? We'll always have extra cash to spare, upgrades won't be a problem.

Asoka helping (If Alex attacks him)

Spoiler :

Like I've said, I'm not for direct conflict with Alex, no expeditionary stacks. However, if gifting units causes no penalties, it would be wise to gift our old units. It is expensive to upgrade, we should do that if an emergency arrives. We could build new units and gift old units. AI's upgrade them for virtually nothing (AI unit upgrade cost 5%).

oh that's why they always upgrade almost every unit they have on one turn! Good to know.

Tech path

Spoiler :

Acidsatyr ignored WFYBTA but he didn't trade later, rushing for space. However, if we choose domination, we will have to do more trades. I'm for a cautious approach, let's choose our techs.

Drama. we need that, Acid didn't. Let's research that

Music. This could be a dangerous detour for know, Liberalism is more important. Liz will be going for that probably very fast. We can live without that GA. Besides, our culture is actually becoming a problem. It's at +29 now and our borders will expand on the next turn. Washington and LIz won't be pleased when we press them. We can expect some culture rising too.

COL. I think that most civs won't have it, it will have fine trading value.

Optics. This can wait too, they will sail to us and we can get maps with trade.

Yeah, boats aren't something we'll ever need, I suppose. Unless we get an ally on the other continent (is this continents?), and they desperately need military help to end the game faster. WFYABTA too shouldn't be an issue, especially after we get an ally. We aren't going to ally with a neighbor (I hope), so we should keep just good enough relations to have them as a buffer.

 

[vra379971]

All right, let's get the discussion going!

It is very important to discuss things to find the best plan. Everybody has some ideas, "The whole is more than the sum of its parts", remember?

Here are some ideas and opinions for you to consider:

Wining

Spoiler :

We are doing very well, but there is still time for the "Wooden Spoon" Let's keep the good job and plan things right. I think this is optimal: rushing to Liberalism and Military tradition, avoiding war and signing a DP first. If we don't research MT first, our target civ will possibly sign DP with someone else.
After 40 turns of DP, we sign PA. Then, we can go bonk some heads for domination, or reach Space, the final frontier. Diplo isn't a likely win. However, a slight detour a bit later for the UN would be wise. We don't want to lose the game because of some bad diplomatic luck.

So be it.

Economy

Spoiler :

I disagree with wonder building at this point. We don't really need wonders now.

HG. It isn't likely at all that we can get this, especially now when we are building defensive forces. Even if we could, that's simply too much hammers for only one health.

Colosus. We are only going to use the crabs IMO. That's only 2 commerce, we don't need that.

Hagia Sophia. Workers +50%, not important. Engineer points? Ok, but priests for settling are better and we will have the forge for a GE, with Pyramids. Btw, Castles don't give +1 trade route in vanilla, AFAIK.

Our strength will come from GP settling (SSE) and Pacifism. This is a killer.

I humbly disagree here. We don't need to build that many wonders, but wonders give GPP and the more we have in points the better. I mentioned the HG and Colossus over the short term as we need Metal Casting anyway, and we can generally trade for Engineering early. Now, while you say we don't need two commerce, there are times where we will want to micro manage to max commerce output, and it will be far more than two raw coins then. Which I humbly submit will be pretty often... As for HG...yeah, I forgot that castles don't give that bonus, so the value falls. However, it goes late generally. The sum is if we're not building anything else, or maxing commerce, we may as will build something for free GPP...and if you want Priests, we should snap up the Angkor Wat...

Units

Spoiler :

How many units do we intend to built right now? I don't think we can afford too much units if we want to be first to Liberalism and use Pacifism. I'm for minimal defensive forces, no expeditionary stacks. In my 2 test games, only 6 military units were enough to stay out of wars before DP.

I also suggest we take it easy with axeman. They are fine now, but not good in medieval ages. Archers are better, we can upgrade them to LB if a need comes. Also, maybe one spear for now.

I sort of agree here. I'm saying we should seek war, but a few scout units on auto compiling data won't hurt us.

Asoka helping (If Alex attacks him)

Spoiler :

Like I've said, I'm not for direct conflict with Alex, no expeditionary stacks. However, if gifting units causes no penalties, it would be wise to gift our old units. It is expensive to upgrade, we should do that if an emergency arrives. We could build new units and gift old units. AI's upgrade them for virtually nothing (AI unit upgrade cost 5%).

Agreed. Though, as I said, only at the point of need.

Tech path

Spoiler :

Acid posted a tech path to rush to Liberalism. I think we should stick to that, with some modifications because every game is different.

Acidsatyr ignored WFYBTA but he didn't trade later, rushing for space. However, if we choose domination, we will have to do more trades. I'm for a cautious approach, let's choose our techs.

Drama. we need that, Acid didn't. Let's research that

Music. This could be a dangerous detour for know, Liberalism is more important. Liz will be going for that probably very fast. We can live without that GA. Besides, our culture is actually becoming a problem. It's at +29 now and our borders will expand on the next turn. Washington and LIz won't be pleased when we press them. We can expect some culture rising too.

COL. I think that most civs won't have it, it will have fine trading value.

Optics. This can wait too, they will sail to us and we can get maps with trade.

Maps don't get us contacts you know. And Optics provides us with vital Harbours, boosting our trade routes by 50%...fine on Music, bit of a pity though. Ah well. I would not call our culture a problem. We are invariably going to have to rid ourselves of those border garrisons, so the faster we culture raze the better.

I think we should discuss this thoroughly. Let' s take some time for this, say 48h. I'll notify all players to join the discussion and finish my mandate. Vra, are you ready to become a captain?

And yes, quite ready to assume Yamps, thanks for the good work. No, great work.

 

[Melior Traiano]

I've gotten into trouble gifting obsolete units to prop up another civ. I'm not sure how many units before we start getting negative diplomacy hits, but at some point, Alex will notice we're fighting a proxy war through Asoka if we gift too many units.

 

[marconos]

Religion - PA Partner
What can we do to get Buddhism? Isabella already has a +5 with us and she has a +8 with Alexander from religion alone. Buddhism would really boost our status with her. Now with that said Asoka is looking mighty fine looking at the GNP/Food/Power etc graphs. We have only a +1 relation with her (there is a -1 from refusing her religion). At this point we really need to pick a target for our PA partner and have to start working hard to get them. We also need to know who their friends are so we don't make a misstep there. With that said we have met 8 of the 17 civs (if you include ourself). The question there becomes are the rest of the players on the other continent? If we say "yes" to that then we have our choices for our partner laid out in front of us. So who is our target? Bhuddism sect or Judasim sect? Whichever we choose the others aren't going to like us much. IMO we shoudl go Bhuddism to help with relations with Washington. He is really going to start disliking us on the next culture expansion.

Research path:
We need Archery VERY VERY bad IMO. I don't believe we should research it, we can't afford it. We have techs to trade, let's trade for what we can get BEFORE we are limited to our PA partner items due to religious constraints. IMO, get Archery and Meditation as we need archers for defense and meditation for our Liberalism shot.

Order should be direct down the tree line to beeline for liberalism IMO.

Worker Usage
1 -- Get those sheep into production ASAP. we will need them to help grow the city and for the healthy (only 3 from the cap). The sheep will give us faster growth, some production and healthy (hell worst case something to trade if we really need to).
2 -- Hookup the cows. We can't work them but we can use the healthy (like sheep) and or trade it away for cash or another resource.

Production
Archer
Archer
Axeman
Archer
That should get us 10 turns approx.
Then back to building needed buildings. Our power is way to low and is going to get us into real trouble. We can't put of military any longer IMO.

Exploration
As soon as we get 1 other military unit get that warrior out exploring. We need to see who else is on our continent and determine if that is going to have any affect on trading and PA options. I would also like to get a workboat out to see what is out there. We may be able to sneak across to the other continent and really open things up.

All I have for now ... looking good but quite fragile ATM.

 

[shikhee]

Success, regardless of Victory Condition in OCC is definately through a Permanent Alliance. The earlier we get it the more successful we will be. Everything else looks nice and important in the short term (Wonders and Great People especially), but our ability to get all of those things once we have an Alliance is at least three-fold over what we can manage ourself.

That said, we also have to prioritise a couple of major things...

Civics Beurocracy (which is our current bee-lined target), Great People Religion doohickey (I have bad sectors in my memory right now!)

Great People
I think these guys are a major priority for us, have as many specialists as possible working at all times for highest possible GP growth. Which makes National Epic a very high priority (and Globe Theatre of course). That religion with 100% GP (and its required tech) also makes a strong priority.

Victory
Few people have suggested Spaceship, which is very likely, but the most we can do to actively achieve this victory is try to guess which other Civ to be our PA is going to be the most active in this pursuit (Asoka is quite likely I believe) - we are still limited by their building plans because to get a nice and timely Space victory we can't possibly build all the parts.

Culture, while I don't think we should aim for, I think is possible and a solid backup plan, chances are whoever is more likely for a Spaceship is also more likely to have higher culture (again, Asoka comes to mind).

Conquest/Domination - no one has really said much about this, but what I really like as a general gameplan, and found it would have worked smashingly in my last test game (it didn't because my PA was the same continent) ... make PA on another major continent (if its there, but 1 major and maybe a minor will be there), preferably a tech/culture based one (so we have the newest warring techs with high chance of Spacerace + Culture vic's), when the PA comes into affect we send our hightech crack troops over and help them control that continent. At the same time we build up a priority (not PA of course) alliance with a warring-civ on our continent, and help them clean up our continent - if we can, 2 strong friends to share our continent (so neither are a risk to our victory, and for trades).

I found in the test games that once a PA was made, I could roll over a number of civs because my tech and units outweighed theres... we can very easily defend ourselves, we'll have the excess cash for a large unit deployment (with our 100% science, 90% if things go bad) but we probably don't need more than 5-8 (if we are unit advanced) on the offensive per continent... and about the same (inc. naval) to defend ourselves, we've got some awesome choke points for added forts too.

 

[Yamps]

Great work everybody!

Some players reported some internet access problems in PM, we can wait for more input.

And yes, quite ready to assume Yamps, thanks for the good work. No, great work.

Thanks! Vra, welcome back! Kaplah!

Sorry about not being able to discuss things since I have been ill for the past few days. I should be able to get up to speed tomorrow.

Speedy recovery!

I'll try to summarize the discussion so far:

Wining
There is a consensus on Liberalism beeline and fast MT and PA. There were some interesting ideas regarding PA partners.

Economy

We all like wonders, of course. We should keep in mind that there is a question of tile usage priority. We will have the opportunity to use many specialists and that will mean low production. Specialists will boost research and GP production and bring early PA.

Helping other civs

Melior pointed out that gifting units can cause diplomatic problems. Anyway, Asoka is strong at this moment.

Tech path
Some think we should trade for everything, some feel we should be more careful.


Well, let's keep discussing

Axemen upgrade to maces, don't they? We'll always have extra cash to spare, upgrades won't be a problem.

...WFYABTA too shouldn't be an issue, especially after we get an ally.

Well, we can have LB sooner than maces I think and LB are defensive units, excellent as choke point defenders so I prefer archers. And will we have much extra cash so soon? I expect to see many scientist specialists and not that much commerce.

We can still trade after we get PA, so WFYBTA could cause some problems.

@Vra
I'm not saying that Optics doesn't matter, I'm saying that we can get this by trade.

Marconos and Shikhee posted some interesting ideas, but that's for the next post.

 

[Yamps]

@Marconos

Buddhism is our desired religion, I agree. Only Asoka, Liz and Fred have Judaism and all dangerous civs have Buddhism (Alex, Izzy and Toku). Liz will switch to free religion anyway. Btw, I've just checked, she isn't giving any negative relations points because of different religion to anybody right now!

Research path:
We can research archery in only one turn and we don't need Meditation right now. Besides, if we get Buddhism, Asoka, Liz and Fred won't stop trading with us, they are tolerant people

Worker Usage
Yes, sheep we need ASAP. Maybe some forest prechopping, what is Alex up to? *gulp*

Production

Spoiler :

Archer
Archer
Axeman
Archer
That should get us 10 turns approx.
Then back to building needed buildings. Our power is way to low and is going to get us into real trouble. We can't put of military any longer IMO.

Yes, sth like that is in order.

Exploration
Warrior for exploration yes, but I don't think we need a boat. Map script is continents.


@Shikhee
Fast PA, this is sth we all agree on I feel.

Bureaucracy, COL, Pacifism.
Great people, National Epic, GT.

Victory
Culture would be too slow. We can do it, but Space for example is faster.

About the PA choice, well you have some radical ideas!

But honestly, I don't think that getting a PA on another continent would work. First, because of bad relations. Second, what's the point? Isn't it easier to clean up our continent than the other one? And that strong "friend" could become a problem too.

 

[kcd_swede]

@Marconos

Buddhism is our desired religion, I agree. Only Asoka, Liz and Fred have Judaism and all dangerous civs have Buddhism (Alex, Izzy and Toku). Liz will switch to free religion anyway. Btw, I've just checked, she isn't giving any negative relations points because of different religion to anybody right now!

Research path:
We can research archery in only one turn and we don't need Meditation right now. Besides, if we get Buddhism, Asoka, Liz and Fred won't stop trading with us, they are tolerant people

Worker Usage
Yes, sheep we need ASAP. Maybe some forest prechopping, what is Alex up to? *gulp*

Production

Spoiler :

Archer
Archer
Axeman
Archer
That should get us 10 turns approx.
Then back to building needed buildings. Our power is way to low and is going to get us into real trouble. We can't put of military any longer IMO.

Yes, sth like that is in order.

Exploration
Warrior for exploration yes, but I don't think we need a boat. Map script is continents.


@Shikhee
Fast PA, this is sth we all agree on I feel.

Bureaucracy, COL, Pacifism.
Great people, National Epic, GT.

Victory
Culture would be too slow. We can do it, but Space for example is faster.

About the PA choice, well you have some radical ideas!

But honestly, I don't think that getting a PA on another continent would work. First, because of bad relations. Second, what's the point? Isn't it easier to clean up our continent than the other one? And that strong "friend" could become a problem too.

I have also wondered why we focus on other continent(s) to find PA partner. Its not obvious to me why there is an advantage to that. My limited exp tends to indicate that Izzy is about the easiest to get to sign a PA, and if getting one fast is optimum... why not?

I prefer Bhuddism for the same reasons you do, the ones who have it get really pissed at those who choose something else. But we might have to take whatever religion we get invited to join, and change again when asked anew, just to avoid conflict.

OK on arch/arch/axe/arch. LB's do have more deterrant effect than Maces.

No gifts for Asoka.

 

[shikhee]

Got a long post coming but before that...

PA on another continent
Primarily I suggest this for an (earlier?) Conquest/Domination victory - if our PA is on our continent, we don't get as easy landmass or influence. Second, with Airports, we have very easy international travel, grand for worldwide offense (not sure how the AI uses them, could be great for our defense as well). Third, I don't think holding 1 or 2 solid friends on our continent will be too difficult (although clearing our land is much less important than intercontinental PA), and it will help us manage civs that are negative to us, hopefully our PA will settle on our continent one day too.

I still like this idea, the hardest part is aligning religion (I have a radical suggestion for that in my next long-winded post!!!) with the other side of the world. I would throw this idea in the bin if our continent far outweighs the size of all other continents.

Longbows
Great defense, but quite out of the way of our tech sights.

 

[shikhee]

WARNING: LONG WINDED
covers everything I can think of in the short term as well as mid term (keeping in mind our priorities for a Defensive Pact and Permanent Alliance).

UNITS
1 x Axe, 2 x Archer (1 Archer city-defender, 1 Archer - with Hills uprade to sit on the silver, Axe forest defense) with roads they can easily reinforce each other (any army is likely to attack from just 1 direction) and we will have plenty of time to build another 1-2 units if required.

ACTION
WARRIOR: go out and explore straight away (by the time he is out of defensible city range we will have the Axe, if paranoid sit Warrior on our roaded borders ready to explore, and/or get him to destroy the farm).
WORKER: Sheep, Farm new grassland, Cow, get our worker mining the iron so we can trade it to our friendly neighbour we want to be winning (or at least surviving) wars. Farm/Cow/Iron is all interchangeable based upon diplomatic situation (trading Iron to Asoka for Spices might be best, gives us +1 and helps keep him safe from Alexander).

BUILD (17h currently)
Axe (35h)
2 x Archer (25h)
(switch to more units after these ones if under immediate threat regardless of current production)
Theatre (50h)
Globe Theatre (300h)
(NOTE: with a spice trade we will be able to grow to 9, which we will probably do before we get Globe theatre out)
Aqueduct (100h) (move down if our health is still a few from max)
National Wonder (250h) (while I'm very keen on GP points, max growth is more useful)

* Forge (do we need it ? -1 health is going to really hurt us now, Metal Working is high in tech points, Collossus is nice but for a total of +5 gold that won't stick around? I think his biggest worth is the +1 GE, and up until our DP we don't need to build that much)
* Monastery (as many as possible, don't need temples, +10% to +60% Science is handy)

TECH
I vote for (in order, noted current turns but should have noted beakers) :
Archery (1t tradeable), Drama (4t), Priesthood (2t tradeable), Code of Laws (8t), Civil Service (18t) --- current total 33t

Then Philosophy (18t, Pacifism, Angkor Wat), Paper (14t), Education (40t, Uni, Oxford), Liberalism (31t -- if we get this first the choice is between Nationalism or Astronomy, Nationalism gives us DP earlier, Astronomy gives us extra Science but is not required for DP or PA - I haven't number crunched but I'm fairly sure we will get PA earlier with Astronomy's Observatory than without it)

Outside of these techs I only see Metal Casting, Machinery and Optics as being of high importance (Metal Casting so we can get: Machinery, for Macemen + keep up with modern warfare/defense, Optics so we can send Explorer/Missionaries across the sea and Whale for trade). Hopefully we can trade for these as hopefully we are leading all the way on our other tech stream.

Feudalism (for Longbows) would be great, but requires Monarchy as well and is more of a stretch (via tech or trade) and less useful to us than MC, Mach + Optics.

Followed by Nationalism (Taj Mahal), Music (Artist if early), Military Tradition (DP)

RELATIONS
We need to start looking at taking "sides" (I often end up in a mess just trying to please everyone, then everyone hates me and it really screws me late game). Currently it looks like there are 2 major factions on our continent: Liz/Fred/Asoka (Jews) and Isabella/Alexander/Washi/Toku (Buddhists) (note I picked those factions by their points against each other before even looking at religion, so they happy with each other even without their religion). I feel we should be very friendly with 1 (preferably more) military civs on our island, and buddy up with tech civ on another island when found so we should join the Buddhist faction (not having Buddhism is a slight drawback of course!) but if we go this path then leaving the religious option until later is possible (sucks not to have that +1 happy but once we have the Globe who cares?). Also note that none of the civs we've met have favourite civics in line with ours.

RELIGION
The major reason we need a religion is to make friends. If we don't have a religion, we make less enemies. We should build the Globe Theatre soon so a religion doesn't mean anything else to us (except for culture, which we don't need). I suggest we hold of on religion (even if we do get Buddhism) until we are getting closer to our DP and have relations on the other side of the world. If we do go a religion, then we should/need trade for Optics and Caravel missionaries to the new world (when the time comes) - whether we go for a PA on our land or not, otherwise everyone over there will hate us.

Do we take a negative hit with people if we choose a religion (especially so we can maximise our growth to 10 before Globe Theatre is built) but once we have the Globe return to No State Religion ? Unfortunately does loose us 2 turns of revolt, which I think is a big no-no based on what Balbes spoke about very early on.

CULTURE
Another point of notice for later in the game - if we push our culture a little bit more, and have short wars with Liz and Washington (or take over their border-pushing-cities with culture) we stand to gain an extra Fish, Crab, Clam, Silver, Wine, 2xGold in our borders.

 

[shikhee]

I realise my turn to play is coming soon - I'm not going to be available until my Sunday evening (its 9pm Thursday now in Australia), will be able to play on Mon, Tue or Wed (not all of them!) no worries.

 

[vra379971]

Here is my one major concern (and why I'd call domination, conquest) just too hard. With the amazing production levels of these Diety AI's, if we try to conquer them they will simply attack us and resettle, and we won't be able to hold land on any continent, due to auto raze. Also, because of the multiple war delclarations we would have to undertake, this attempt would invariably lead to 16 (or a bit less) on 2. Understandably, I don't like those odds.

I'd rather find a civ with good production cities and simply Space Race with them.

 

[marconos]

I also agree that Space race seems the best option for speed -- but looking at domination is a valid option with a PA, won't conquered cities go to our PA partner? As well being on a tiny map with 17 civs it seems to me that most civs can be eliminated quickly as most will have 2 - 3 cities at the most. If we conquer just 2 civs and those cities go to our PA partner at that point we would be a 6 - 10 city nation and would be immensely more powerful then the other opponents.

 

[Yamps]

Wow, that's some post, Shikhee.

• PA on another continent. Like I said, radical.
• Longbows. Shouldn't be a problem to get by trade I think.
• Iron trading to wrong civs for almost nothing would probably give negative relations.
• Religion. The main reason for religion is actually the Pacifism civic, it won't work without the religion.

@Domination.

Yeah, domination would be hard. We would have to attack one civ hard and then immediately the first neighbor. If we don't, the neighbor will culture revolt the cities in no time. We should kill of all city defenders except one and move to another city. Then we have to wait for our PA partner to take it, we can tell them what city to attack. If we conquer the city, it gets auto-razed. We should also keep in mind that other civs also get PA's and multiple defensive pacts.

It is hard, but I believe it is possible to do it. We should test this if we decide for that. I don't think that anybody reported a domination win in a test game, we only had space victories.

 

[Yamps]

Kcd_swede, I've tried to contact you with PM before but you don't have that option enabled. Paranoia?

 

[shikhee]

Domination - I primarily suggest it because it could potential make a much earlier victory than Spacerace, but there is a lot to co-ordinate and to be careful. We also have a ridiculously easy to defend city (close sea + land choke points) that we are much more capable of waging an offensive war than in most games (I normally don't like war and hate it when its declared against me).

As for razing - the cities we take do get destroyed, and the civs are quite fast to rebuild (especially when land is so scarce) but if we target our PA's borders he'll be able to move in fast. Also because we are razing my army (with a general) was able to very quickly move and destroy an entire civ (also on this map size with so many civs, no ones going to have more than 3-6 cities).

All I ask is you give it a shot, we will easily be in the top 3 most powerful civs once we make PA (if not the 1st) - I was aiming for spaceship but found I had a lot of time with not much to do (and I was still keeping up with city buildings and the occasional wonder). With a start as strong as we have, and if we stay consistent, I think its entirely possible, and we won't be deviating too much from the backup potentials of a spaceship or cultural victory (our city will reach legendary, 2 from our PA is quite possible but it will happen later than the other victories).

 

[shikhee]

[*]PA on another continent. Like I said, radical.

:~D I agree, and I'd normally never play this way, but almost everything I've learnt in this game goes against what I previously new and used, this is no different

[*]Longbows. Shouldn't be a problem to get by trade I think.

I say we only trade for it, definately don't tech it.

[*]Iron trading to wrong civs for almost nothing would probably give negative relations.

Anymore than any other trade ? I didn't realise it made a difference what you traded but who (diplomacy is still a weak point for me).

[*]Religion. The main reason for religion is actually the Pacifism civic, it won't work without the religion.

Ahhhh - I didn't notice that, then I take back everything I said about Religion


Yeah, domination would be hard. We would have to attack one civ hard and then immediately the first neighbor. If we don't, the neighbor will culture revolt the cities in no time.

Not when the neighbour is our PA

 

[kcd_swede]

Kcd_swede, I've tried to contact you with PM before but you don't have that option enabled. Paranoia?

Not paranoid, just conservative. I made those settings when I first signed up and have forgotten all about them. Try it now.

 

[Yamps]

@Shikhee

Also because we are razing my army (with a general) was able to very quickly move and destroy an entire civ

What general? Anyway, I don't think we should raze. Leaving one defender seems better.

Regarding trading, it matters how lopsided the trade is. Melior pointed it out before. I've tried it to see for myself. If you make a trade that is much better for the other civ, it gets noticed and you get negative relations with the civ's worst enemy.

 

[classical_hero]

Excellent work. Now we just need to put this into practice.