SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

You made a lot of choices on your own, Melior Traiano. You should have discussed more.

Defense

The consensus was to build troops. We are really pushing our luck.

Tribute paying and opening borders

Turn 82: Alex asks for Poly. Not wanting to antagonize Isabella any more, I refuse.

Would that really give negative points? I don't think that paying tribute would cause that. Who is Izzy's worst enemy anyway? She is at war with Alex but she has 0 with him and -3 with Huayna and Liz. There will be more demands, we have to answer this: does paying tribute cause negative points?

He looks to be both Washington & Liz's worst enemy, so no OB for him.

(Capac)

JC isn't anyone's worst enemy, so OB with him. Freddo is JC's worst enemy, BTW.

And do we have negative relations with JC because of our open borders with Fred? Opening borders shouldn't cause negative points, too.

Prechopping
Forrest grassland near Washington's land is a possible farm location. Water will spread from Washington's land, that was a good prechopping candidate.

Globe building
This doesn't look optimal. We need troops for one reason and we should use whipping techniques like we did for the GL for better results.


We should study this position carefully to find the right plan. We need to do some tactical considerations, happy cap and health cap are near. However, our biggest concern IMO is the war with Isabella. This is very bad for us. Izzy won't prioritize missionaries during the war. Buddhism is still the religion of our choice, all dangerous civs have it! Our relations with other civs are rather bad, this could become a huge setback later on.

 

[Yamps]

Please no more researching of techs that we can already trade for. We are so far behind tech wise that nobody is going to think we are too advanced.

WFYBTA doesn't work like this. It has the wrong name, this doesn't have anything to do with how advanced you are. And we are not at all behind in techs. Here is the information I've gathered from the Forum:

@WFYBTA

"We fear you are becoming too advanced."

The problem with this concept is its name. This should be called:

"We fear you are trading too much"

AFAIK, this works like this:

Every civ that has contact with us counts how many trades we make with all civs. When we reach a limit, we get WFYBTA. Every civ has its own limit, but they count all trades, not just trades we make with them.

Note that we could use our lack of exploration as an advantage, because the civs that don't know us yet haven't started counting.

Also, if we have a low score ranking (50% of civs ahead of us) and the civ we want to trade with is also below 50%, that civ will trade with us.

Balbes, please correct me if I missed something.

We need to go around and see if anyone will simply feel sorry for us Unusual Suspects and GIVE us Archery/Priesthood. We should be able to gert arch this way at least.

Culture wise, if we really are worried about cultural problems, we might consider pulling in the Sistine Chapel. But, I don't think it will be a problem.

If they gift us a tech, that counts for WFYBTA too. WFYBTA limit with some civs is just a few more trades away, judging by my test games.

Culture problems? What culture problems? We gained fish btw from Liz with our great culture. The only problem with culture will happen when we culture raze New York and then decide that it would be nice to have Washington as a PA partner.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Alright team, first of all, I apologize for not stopping right after Alex declared war on Isabella so I could propose a change of plans. I saw this turn of events as an opportunity to start leveraging CS as much as possible as quickly as possible, and seized the day, as it were.

Some points I want to address:

War on Isabella/Alex: Why would we want to get involved in a Buddhist vs Buddhist war? Alex and Isabella are at bottom of the scoreboard & now they're fighting each other, so they might be permanent fixtures near the bottom. I'm not sure who we would want to form a PA with, but what is to be gained by sticking our nose into this fight at all? Nothing that outweighs any 'you declared war on our friend' diplomacy hits, as far as I can see.

Aligning with the Buddhist bloc: We don't have Buddhism, and therefore, can't cozy up by common religion. Both Liz & Asoka have metal units, Washington doesn't. Why do we want to risk antagonizing two nearby neighbors with metal units (and Liz will have elephants too)?

Trading for Archery: I thought we agreed not to trade for this cheap tech when we traded with Asoka? Why the change of heart, given that Archers are weaker defenders (even on a hill) than Axes? And Archers aren't any offensive option to speak of? We're nowhere near being able to build Longbows, so where is the need for Archery?

WFYABTA: See this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578 As you can see, a number of the known civs in our game will become WFYABTA after 5 tech trades. Why we would want to give up our trading flexibility by trading for 1 turn techs, considering we're teching pretty well right now is beyond me.

WHEOOHRN: I checked each civ's WHEOOHRN status at the start of each turn. Since our immediate neighbors are not aggressive, I figured that if I caught them immediately when someone went WHEOOHRN, there would be enough warning to build some troops before the actual attack. Yes, checking each turn is tedious, but I don't mind trading a little tedium for better intel.

Also, consider this:

We're not doing ridiculously poor in power like we were before switching to Rep. We're at roughly 40% of Asoka, Liz & Washington's power. We should be alright for now. Caesar could create problems later on, so we need to keep very close tabs on him & not piss him off.

Globe & hiring specialists: The city is one under the happy cap. Considering that we're not likely to get attacked by an immediate neighbor & assuming we're being diligent about checking WHEOOHRN, I think the best thing we can do to help ourselves is to eliminate the happy cap, maximize growth, then run max scientists under CS. The only reason to delay this very important goal is if we face the possibility of imminent attack, which is why it's crucial to check WHEOOHRN each turn. Note also that we will want to get NE up unless we want to become Jewish pacifists. In any case, we should maximize GP generation.

Alex's request for Poly: An important distinction needs to be made here. Alex asked for 'help' and if I had said yes, that would have counted as trading. If he had demanded Poly by saying he'll refrain from crushing us or using the actual word 'tribute' & I had caved, then that would have been tribute & not counted as trading. It is very important to read exactly what the talking head is saying to maintain control over the diplomatic situation.

OB with HC & JC: As I said, HC is Liz & Washington's worst enemy. If Liz or Washington had demanded we stop OB with HC, either HC would have been ticked for 'you stopped trading' or Liz & Washington would have been ticked for refusing. JC is no one's worst enemy, that we know, and until he becomes someone's worst enemy, nobody will demand we stop OB with him. As it stands, we will only get a -1 with JC if we refuse to stop OB with Fred.

Again, sorry for forging ahead without checking with the group first. In the end, win or lose, this game is about improving our gameplay by discussion and I should have stopped after such an important event in the game.

 

[kcd_swede]

"WHEOOHRN: I checked each civ's WHEOOHRN status at the start of each turn."

OK... now someone tell me what WHEOOHRN stands for?

"Again, sorry for forging ahead without checking with the group first."

It's no big deal. This is after all a Succession game, not a Democracy Game, per se.

"In the end, win or lose, this game is about improving our gameplay by discussion and I should have stopped after such an important event in the game."

Well, we need to work as a team on a common strategy. So its good for the team to stop and discuss anything that requires an adjustment to the agreed strategies. We're all individuals though, and each of us has his own comfort level with regards to WFYBTA, Diplo relations, and military strengths.

Thanks for the WFYABTA link. I understand it now. So as for improving my gameplay, I'm definitely Pleased with your contributions.

Cheers!

 

[Yamps]

Melior Traiano, thank you for your extensive response!

Okay, let's discuss.

War on Isabella/Alex: Why would we want to get involved in a Buddhist vs Buddhist war? Alex and Isabella are at bottom of the scoreboard & now they're fighting each other, so they might be permanent fixtures near the bottom. I'm not sure who we would want to form a PA with, but what is to be gained by sticking our nose into this fight at all? Nothing that outweighs any 'you declared war on our friend' diplomacy hits, as far as I can see.

Aligning with the Buddhist bloc: We don't have Buddhism, and therefore, can't cozy up by common religion. Both Liz & Asoka have metal units, Washington doesn't. Why do we want to risk antagonizing two nearby neighbors with metal units (and Liz will have elephants too)?

We can stop the war with techs, I've checked. It is important to stop this war so that Izzy starts sending missionaries again. We need a religion to boost relations up. It will be very unfortunate if we can't find a friend for DP and PA!

@Trading
Hope that Melior has convinced you all not to trade too much! No archery trading and no priesthood trading.

However, I disagree about the value of archery. We will soon get Feudalism by trade. We can also trade Literature to Asoka for 200 gold! That money will come in handy for archer upgrades.

@WHEOOHRN (We have enough on our hands right now)
While checking this every turn is a wise idea, we would like to avoid that trigger. Power graph is probably high enough, but do we need to take that chance?

@Globe
I agree we should built the Globe, I'm asking about the technique. Pre-building an aqueduct (health cap is also near) or a temple (for a Priest specialist) and whipping with overflow looks like a nice idea.

@Diplomacy

Thank you for this explanation! So, giving help counts as trading while paying tribute doesn't.

We are not signing open borders with HC because Liz and Washington might ask us to stop that. We are missing positive relations points with HC, but this makes sense. Only JC hates Fred so OB with Fred aren't that bad. Ok, I've got it. Btw, you haven't actually signed OB with JC, I've opened the save.

In the end, win or lose, this game is about improving our gameplay by discussion

Yes, the power of the group. This game is bringing me a lot of fun. Studying the position, planning, discussing... I don't think that I'll be able to go back to "just playing" after this game.

 

[marconos]

Melior Traiano -- thanks for the post. Explains a lot. I don't get what we have enough on our hands means in relation to the power graph. Someone care to explain?

 

[kcd_swede]

Melior Traiano -- thanks for the post. Explains a lot. I don't get what we have enough on our hands means in relation to the power graph. Someone care to explain?

I don't understand this either. My only experience with WHEOOHRN is when I try to bribe someone to go to war but they are already atwarwith someone else. I think I'm missing something.

 

[Ankka]

I don't understand this either. My only experience with WHEOOHRN is when I try to bribe someone to go to war but they are already atwarwith someone else. I think I'm missing something.

It starts already when a civ is planning a war against someone. And because we're the weakest, if someone is planning a war, it might well be against us.

 

[Yamps]

Here are some ideas for our next moves:

Diplomacy
We really have an interesting position. It isn't clear at all that Izzy can send missionaries to our city. I would say that she can't because of closed borders! More exploration is needed. We should start accumulating relations points real fast and choose our side.

Technology and trading

• Literature (286 ) to Asoka for 200 gold, we will need that money.
• We can pay Alex or Izzy for peace, but it isn't clear at all that we should do that. Judaism could be our choice after all.
• Monotheism, Meditation and Archery can be researched in one turn, so no to trading that.
• Currency, Calendar, Monarchy and Construction are fine goals. However, at this point we can only get Currency and Calendar. We should wait a bit and trade for nothing just yet. There is no reason for fear, there are lot of civs to get Currency and Calendar from, they won't all discover COL or Drama so fast. We shall also have CS soon, let's get the most from our trades.
• Our tech path: Archery and CS. Archers have their value, and I expect that we'll get Feudalism from trade in less than 20 turns.

Health

We have 10 at the moment. Cows will give +1, aqueduct +2 and Harbor +3 (we have crabs, clam and fish). Forge -1 and some chopping -1 sums up to 14. Our current population is 8, we need 12 more food for the next 6 people. Our food surplus is 5, so more farms are needed. Forrest grassland near Washington's land should be cleared for a farm.

Builds

• Scout first. (1 turn) This is a new idea. Choosing a side ASAP is our greatest priority. We don't want delays because of bad relations. We need to research MT first, too. Other civs have very good relations, we have to ask first for the pact.
• 3 archers next. We can't built an archer yet, we need to research Archery for one turn.
• Aqueduct after that, pre-building it and whipping with overflow to GT.
• GT Finishing that with 2 chops. I haven't calculated things exactly, but my estimate is that we will reach the happy cap before we finish the GT. Slowing down growth with 2 scientist won't be enough. We will need one more mine, we should chop some wood right now and build it.

Immediate actions
Selling Literature to Asoka for 200 gold. OB to JC. Chopping the forest for GT. Building the scout. After mining the hill, pre-chopping the grassland forest near Wash. Researching Archery and then CS.

Final considerations
Judging by the score, Izzy, Toku and Alex only have one city. Judaism is looking better and better. We can make a small detour (1 turn) at some point after CS for Meditation to build a Monastery. We could convert Washington and JC and remove all threats. Note that suggested unit build up will give one unit beyond our free unit cap and -1 , but exploration is important. Loss of gold doesn't matter with the Asoka's 200 gold. We can disband the scout or the Cartography Corps (r) later on.

I have been waiting for Shikhee to post his plans first, for he is an active player. However, I've decided to post my ideas to speed things up a bit.

 

[shikhee]

Okay - couple of options I've tried out in my test game (most city options I managed to get equal, except for exact number of starting food so the growth might be a touch off). So far I prefer ROUND 2.

Am I only meant to play 10 turns (mapped out 20 to see the effects of the first 10 as well) ? outside of the diplomacy there doesn't seem to be much to do... obviously my test game is no good for the diplomacy and I'm happy to take everyones advice for that.

ROUND 1a
t0 : start CS (12t), continue Globe, Worker - Farm, Cow, Iron, Warrior - Explore; max growth (approx 4t); Globe (approx 12t); 1 sci
t1 :
t2 :
t3 :
t4 : size 9, GP (build into city); reduce growth max production (Globe approx 5t) 2sci (approx 6t for CS)
t5 :
t6 :
t7 :
t8 :
t9 : Globe built (cue Axe)
t10: CS (cue Archery, revolt now? we only have the 1 civic to change rather than maximising the use of that 1 turn and changing 2 civics, but +50% prod +50% gold should outweigh this); 1sci increase growth
t11: Archery (cue Meditation, Philosophy, Paper, Education, Liberalism); Axe built (cue Archer)
t12: Meditation (cue Philo)
t13: Archer built (cue Archer)
t14: Archer built (cue National Epic 6t), size 10
t15:
t16:
t17:
t18: Philo (cue Paper), size 11
t19: National Epic (cue Workboat for fishies, with movement 1 turn faster than Aqueduct)
t20: Workboat (cue Aqueduct), GP

ROUND 1b (WITH REVOLT FOR BEUROCRACY)
t10: CS (cue Archery, revolt now); 1sci increase growth
t11: -- revolt --
t12: Archery (cue Meditation, Philosophy, Paper, Education, Liberalism); Axe built (cue Archer)
t13: Archer built (cue Archer); Meditation (cue Philo)
t14: Archer built (cue National Epic 7t)
t15: size 10
t16:
t17:
t18:
t19: Philo (cue Paper), size 11; National Epic (cue Aqueduct which is now 1 turn faster than workboat + movement)
t20:

ROUND 2
t0 : start CS (12t), Switch to Axe (3t, last turn requiring 1 hammer so we can whip and spill to Globe), Worker - Farm, chop outside city for GT (5t 36h), Cow, Farm, Iron, Warrior - Explore; max growth (approx 5t); 1 sci
t1 :
t2 : whip Axe
t3 : size 7; Globe cued (approx 7t); 0 sci (growth 2t)
t4 : GP (build into city, I kept getting scientist in my tests);
t5 : size 8;
t6 : forest chop +36h (max happy growth + GT in 2t)
t7 :
t8 : GT built (cue Axe 2t), size 9 (1 sci, grow in 4t)
t9 :
t10: Axe built (cue Spear)
t11: Civil Service (cue Archery), Revolt to Beurocracy, Build 2nd Farm
t12: -- revolt --
t13: Archery (cue Meditation (1t) for direct line to Liberalism), size 10 (grow 4t, 2sci), Spear Built (cue Archer 1t)
t14: Meditation (cue Philosophy 6t), Archer built (cue Aqueduct 5t), shifted working squares so we grow in 2t (was 3) and makes Aqueduct 5t (rather than 4 because in test i can grow to 11);
t15:
t16:
t17: size 11
t18: Aqueduct built (cue National Epic 6t)
t19: Philo (cue Paper);
t20:

WAR note
one game Isabella attacked me with a huge pile of Axe's and Spears, playing the defenses right I took about 3 of her units for 1 of mine in the field, more in the city, improvements were wasted of course... to avoid this we'd need more units on the hill + forests or be able to spot the armies coming and choose which 1 to defend. But having 4-5 units seemed plenty, aside from the fact it doesn't look like we're being attacked anytime soon in the real game.


Also - as to whether we should build more Archers or Axes, I'm not sure how the final strength of a unit is found but I think the final numbers are right...

Archer:
city build: 3; +70% city def; +25% hill; + city defenses (3 + 2.25 + 0.75 = 6 + city defenses)
hill build: 3; +45% hill def; +25% hill (3+1.35+0.75=5.1)
forest bld: 3; +10% str; +50% forest (3+0.3+1.5=4.8)

Axemen:
city build: 5; +10% str; +25% hill; + city defenses (5+0.5+1.25=6.75)
hill build: 5; +10% str; +25% hill (5+0.5+1.25=6.75)
forest bld: 5; +20% forest def; +50% forest (5+1.0+2.5=8.5)

Spearman:
same as Axe but 4 power (so 25% weaker, or 160% stronger than Axe vs. Horses), does anyone have scary horses ?

Strongest:
City build: Axe (6.75 vs. 6)
Hill build: Axe (6.75 vs. 5.1)
Forest build: Axe (8.5 vs. 4.8)

Which begs the question - do we even need to consider Archers ? Its 1 good turn lost in tech, and its a tech we can easily add to a more important trade to balance things out once we can build Longbows, but anytime before that they don't seem worth having (maybe with a few upgrades, and they are cheaper to build). I daresay Axes also make more of an international impression of our power.

Then again, how powerful is first strike as well ? I love it and use it a lot in my games but I've never found a way to quantify its usefulness.

 

[shikhee]

Chopping
Why is everyone so gung-ho about chopping right now ? Globe Theatre is a national wonder so there is no race, and I don't think we should chop anymore forests in our radius (or at least until Environmentalism). There is at least 1 forest outside our radius which I chopped in the above plan, not as hammer friendly of course but its super health friendly!.

Culture problems
I found in *some* of my test games our very close neighbours were starting to push our borders in (1 game I lost the iron, another the cow). Probably not a major issue for us, especially if we get the Globe and National Epic out soon.

Monotheism
We don't need this for our techs, if you want it for the civic then I suggest we do trade (rather than wait 1 extra turn for Beurocracy) for it before we discover Civil Service so we can swap those 2 civics (still only 1 turn revolt). Since we still don't have a religion its much of a muchness.

Isabella v. Alex
Let them fight it out, they will either push themselves back to the dark ages, or there will be a stronger winner who we can then be nice and friendly to. From what I can tell, either are likely to war on us even if we do have a positive score with them down.

Religion
Its getting close to a point where a religion is not much use for us in the diplomacy, yes we want it for Military Tradition + Defensive Pact but thats a long way to go yet - and with no state religion we will find friends on the other side of the world. While most are Buddhist now, most games everyone changes later on anyway - and we don't want to waste turns swapping religions more than once in a game (I think).

Trades
* Sell Literature to Asoka (will he trade Mono + cash for Lit ?) - aside from being able to upgrade our Warrior to an Axe straight away I don't see the need to do this but happy to go along
* Currency, Calendar, Monarchy and Construction -- none of these do anything for us (sure extra trade route here, or catapults there is handy but way to much of a distraction from our immediate goals).
* Open Borders to JC - sure why not!

Archery
I say leave it, Axes are better and we can very simply research or add it to an important trade when/if we get Feudalism (which does divert a bit from our straight line to Liberalism + Military Tradition). I would rather work towards Machinery (for maces) over Feudalism, to do both is a big tech/trade divergence.

Health
Save our forests!!! We have 2 squares there for farmland (one should be worked straight away, the other as soon as Civil Service is found). I think our worker still has heaps to do before any more pre-chopping (2 farms, cow + iron, shame we can't build a fort on the silver hill).

Builds
*SCOUT: I have no problem building a scout (in ROUND 2 I built a Spear because I had 1 turn left to build before next tech, Scout would have fitted perfectly into there... can switch to Scout immediately but it does delay building our power).
*AQUEDUCT: I found it was 1 turn faster to build a workboat (build 1 move 3) for those fishies before Beurocracy, 1 turn faster for Aqueduct after (but not maximising growth).

 

[shikhee]

PLAYING
can you guys confirm for me...

a) how many turns ? (10 ?)

b) i'm happy to stop with a screenshot with any new diplomacy, but am i legally able to quit the game while i wait for a response here ?

c) i can possibly play tonight (about 10 hours time) or definately tomorrow night (35 hours time) or the following day. can't see any other immediate times i can play.

 

[kcd_swede]

PLAYING
can you guys confirm for me...

a) how many turns ? (10 ?)

b) i'm happy to stop with a screenshot with any new diplomacy, but am i legally able to quit the game while i wait for a response here ?

c) i can possibly play tonight (about 10 hours time) or definately tomorrow night (35 hours time) or the following day. can't see any other immediate times i can play.

I would suggest you play 10 and save to pause for discussion before you play the next 10. You can legally save a game as many times as you want during game play (recommended at least once every turn). If the diplo screen comes up, you cannot save the game until you respond to it. You CAN press [alt + tab] to return to your desktop and post here if you want. It's a personal matter how long you can leave your computer in that stasis. I would have trouble leaving it that way more than 20 minutes due to little monkeys messing about. Best is if you can foresee the likely diplo demands and suggest response before you start playing -- and of course save & discuss here if the diplo changes the strategic situation in a significant way.

If you meet a new civ, for example, their heads do NOT look good on poles, imo. But it would seem reasonable to check what they are willing to trade (OB, for example) but not execute any trade without being sure the team is OK with it -- and discuss here if there are big game-changing decisions potentially to be made. But it would get too tedious (for all of us) if there is discussion about every minor detail, so use your own judgement, too.

You seem to have a plan that jibes with team goals. Read through the responses to your plan then go for it (unless there are major objections). And anything the Team Capt might say over-rides any opinions I have expressed here.

 

[kcd_swede]

Then again, how powerful is first strike as well ? I love it and use it a lot in my games but I've never found a way to quantify its usefulness.

First strikes are only any good if the guy attacking you is near or lower in power. One first strike is generally fairly worthless. Two is ok, and three is extremely powerful. But if the attacker is immune to first strikes, they are all worthless. A lot of different types of units are immune to first strikes, btw. Generally it is not good to promote all units the same way, so I like to throw in a first strike unit now and then, but not so many of them.

I have a question: Are we likely to found Taoism when we get Philosophy?

 

[Yamps]

@Shikhee

Ok, let's compare notes.

Testing & calculating
We don't need a test game. It is possible to calculate things exactly just by looking at the save. You write down the current turn statistics and iterate for the next 10 turns. It is actually not that difficult.

Chopping

Spoiler :

Which forests would you chop? All forests we have are inside our BFC. We have 9 forests and we are getting +4 health. We can chop one forest for free now and not lose health points! (0.50 per forest). Worker is standing on a prechopped forest hill right now.

Anyway, we will have more health than needed food, I posted the count before. That's why we should chop even more to make room for a third grassland farm. That will decrease our health, but there is no use of extra health if we don't have the food for the population.

Building the GT has a bonus of 50% (Industrial). We don't have a race, but those forests will be well used here. Happy cap is also near.

Axeman vs Archers

Spoiler :

Axeman maybe seem better for now, but:

• The main usage is not war, but war prevention. Axeman and Archers both yield 2000 soldiers for the power graph, I've checked.
• Archers are build faster than Axeman.
• Archers will upgrade to LB's soon. (Feudalism by trade, not direct research!)
• We could also upgrade them to Cho-Ko-Nu, although I don't advocate that.

Spear is to specific, there isn't much horses out there probably. We can build that later if we'll have to.

Revolting

Spoiler :

You have forgotten about the Caste System. We shall revolt to that and Bureaucracy. That's the reason we don't need Monotheism for now. Revolting to OR also would prolong the anarchy period for 1 more turn and we won't build so much with all that specialists in the city.

Trades

Spoiler :

Trades
* Sell Literature to Asoka (will he trade Mono + cash for Lit ?) - aside from being able to upgrade our Warrior to an Axe straight away I don't see the need to do this but happy to go along
* Currency, Calendar, Monarchy and Construction -- none of these do anything for us (sure extra trade route here, or catapults there is handy but way to much of a distraction from our immediate goals).
* Open Borders to JC - sure why not!

The number of trades is still a thing to discuss.

• Literature for 200 gold is simply excellent in my book.
• Monarchy is the most valuable trade because it opens up Feudalism.
• Calendar will be needed to open up Astronomy. (Free tech from Liberalism)
• Currency gives +1 trade trade route, Construction cats and opens Engineering.

Anyway, the point was that all these are better than Meditation, Archery and Mono. I think we should wait a bit with the trades to see what's better. Post a screenshot when some interesting trade possibilities show up.

Diplomacy

Spoiler :

Isabella v. Alex
Let them fight it out, they will either push themselves back to the dark ages, or there will be a stronger winner who we can then be nice and friendly to. From what I can tell, either are likely to war on us even if we do have a positive score with them down.

Religion
Its getting close to a point where a religion is not much use for us in the diplomacy, yes we want it for Military Tradition + Defensive Pact but thats a long way to go yet - and with no state religion we will find friends on the other side of the world. While most are Buddhist now, most games everyone changes later on anyway - and we don't want to waste turns swapping religions more than once in a game (I think).

Leaving Izzy and Alex to fight is probably the best thing to do. After some exploration we will know for sure who to align with. Scout is needed, warrior is too slow. However, I disagree about your religion evaluation. There won't be much religion switches on our continent. Asoka has Christianity, Confucianism is probably founded on another continent. That only leaves Taoism and Islam. Islam is far away and we might actually bag Taoism ourselves. Making friends on the other continent soon enough simply isn't going to happen IMO. Friendship based on what? Judaism very soon and sticking to that for the rest of the game is the why to go, I say that with 90% certainty. Besides, it is quite possible that our continent is alone big enough for domination.

Builds

Spoiler :

*AQUEDUCT: I found it was 1 turn faster to build a workboat (build 1 move 3) for those fishies before Beurocracy, 1 turn faster for Aqueduct after (but not maximising growth).

We don't need the workboat, fish already have the boats and they are outside our BFC btw. Aqueduct building is a very good thing. We can build a Scout, 3 Archers, Aqueduct and finish GT (73/300 currently) in ~15 turns. Whipping one pop, 2 chops and building another mine will provide that. This can be hurried even more with a third chop. That chop has to be done because it won't decrease health. (We have 9 forests, one chop doesn't decrease health, 2 or 3 bring the same -1.)

EDIT:
News flash: I've been talking to Asoka lately and he bragged: "Oh, look: I've just built a Longbowman. Where should I put it?"

I still think that selling Literature to him for 200 gold is a good idea. He would chip in cheap Meditation or Archery too, but no to that because of the WFYBTA limit. I'm pretty sure that Washington will have LB's soon too. Monarchy when it becomes available for trade and Feudalism are prime trade targets. I estimate we'll use CS to get Feudalism.

 

[kcd_swede]

As for WFYBTA, according to the thread already linked: Alex, Izzy, and Toku will reach their limit when they see us trade for 6 techs; Asoka, Fred, Wash will reach limit at 12 techs; and Liz at 18 techs. The limit does not occur if we are Friendly. How's our tech trade count?

Lit for 200 gold is ok by me. What are the plans for using the gold, if I may ask?

Asoka's got LB's?! Wow.

 

[Yamps]

As for WFYBTA, according to the thread already linked: Alex, Izzy, and Toku will reach their limit when they see us trade for 6 techs; Asoka, Fred, Wash will reach limit at 12 techs; and Liz at 18 techs. The limit does not occur if we are Friendly. How's our tech trade count?

Lit for 200 gold is ok by me. What are the plans for using the gold, if I may ask?

Asoka's got LB's?! Wow.

@Gold. Well, it is easy to spend cash. 1gpt for the extra unit and archer upgrades to LBs for example. Or Cho-Ko-Nu. Heck, maybe we'll be sending some expeditionary Cho-Ko-Nu to get experience for the HE.

@Trade book. Note that those numbers are for getting techs from somebody else! That article that Melior found really is excellent. Wfyabta by VoiceOfUnreason

We have gained 7 techs from our trades:
Izzy: AH, BW, Myst, IW
Asoka: Math
Washington: Poly, Sailing

Alex, Capac, JC and Fred know nothing about this.

This means:

Izzy: 3/6 (We got 3 techs from somebody else)
Toku: 7/6 (We reached his limit, but we are both under 50% in score probably. Unknown civs also count.)
Washington: 5/12
Asoka: 6/12
Liz: 7/18

Maybe they have forgotten about some trades, too. It is also good to know that AI also suffer somewhat from WFYBTA. (DENIAL_TECH_WHORE code! )

It would be wise to get friendly with as many score leaders as possible, they are the first to stop trading. Our score will be under 50%, we'll be able to trade with the lower half. Unless they start hating us because of other things.

 

[vra379971]

I'm going to assume Shikhee hasn't played yet...good. Will read and comment over the next few hours, will try to be concise!

 

[shikhee]

not played - 90% will tonight in about 9 hours from this post

 

[shikhee]

Still not sure on the consensus of Achery :

* Trade or Tech ?

Either way with Yamps plan (more Archers and Axes) we need to divert from Civil Service for a turn or trade now. I will build 1 Scout, upgrade Warrior to Axe (from Asoka money, will return him home when Scout built ready) and 2 Archers (total cost -1 gold/turn).

I'm still not convinced about chopping in our city-radius for Globe, at 9 Forests we allow for a new forest to grow, which if it is going to happen will happen when we need that +1 health. I refuse to chop more than 1 in our city-radius

But with whipping we won't grow faster than building the Globe at a casual pace will get us, so we don't loose any turns when we should be growing more. The mine would be nice though (chopping NE on the pre-chopped square) ... I don't think Globe is urgent enough to use a forest, and we should save it for a select Wonder in the near future. Maybe I should whip twice (once on Scout, then on Archer) to help Globe.