SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

Yamps · May 28, 2008

marconos said:
Well have you done the turns yet

I'll have some time for play later today. I'll post the trading results first.

shikhee said:
Plans look good to me except worker order:

Aqueduct is in the current cue right ? if so you can build that 2nd Farm then road the Sheep, theres no way you can grow outside our health before then. Unless you mean to switch to NE straight away, then Sheep needs priority.

Yes to missionaries, I think we only need 3 (max) for 2 Roman cities and 1 Fred city. I'd also like to have a missionary ready for a Caravel to go across the seas when that is ready.

Aqueduct can wait a bit, NE first, Sheep will provide health. JC is a priority, Fred is already Jewish so that's an easier task.

vra379971 said:
That sounds like a fine deal.

I presume we plan to have a second revolt after we discover Philosophy?

Okay, so why don't you take us past our second revolt then Yamps, and we'll see on the other side of that how many turns we'll have you play past that.

That's the general idea. Ok, here is the religion plan summary:

I'll keep an eye on Izzy to see if she is building missionaries. I'll be building NE and Monastery first anyway, we'll see then what's the situation. I'll keep you informed.

Yamps · May 28, 2008

Here are the first results:

I've played for one turn and everything was accomplished as planned.

The trades were made, the war stopped and there weren't any penalties. Kublai also chipped 10 :gold:

for the trade (Construction + 10 :gold:

for Drama and Literature). The trade has brought us +2 with Kublai and no penalties, he is pleased with us now. I've also opened borders with him. So far so good!

Axeman pillaged the farm, I switched production to NE and revolted to Caste + Bur.

Next turn reports:

Angor Wat has been built in a far away land.
There is no WHEOOHRN danger at the moment.
Talks with the AI revealed:
Washington said Capac is his bitter enemy, Asoka said Alex is his and Izzy said Liz is hers. Is there a difference between bitter and worst? They sometimes say worst enemies. They were all encouraging us to stop trading with theirs bitter enemy.

There are no tech trades to do at this moment. Asoka is the only civ that is willing to trade Feudalism at the moment, but he isn't accepting CS for it. I wouldn't give it to him right away anyway, let's keep the monopoly tech for a while. He is the only leader willing to trade MC, too.

I'll just keep on playing and post when more opportunities arrive.

marconos · May 28, 2008

Looking good so far

Ankka · May 28, 2008

I think bitter is not as bad as worst, they won't like it but it won't cause a penalty? :hmm:

Yamps · May 28, 2008

Okay, here is what happened next:

T3 (T100)

Alex made a trade offer: HR + 30 :gold:

for Currency. There was no reason to accept that so I declined.

Izzy made a demand to stop trading with Liz, I declined that too. That gave a -1 hit with Izzy but Liz would've had a much worse response if I'd accepted that. I mentioned that Liz is Izzy's "bitter enemy". Maybe there are some differences with "worst enemy", but this could just be a figure of speech. Izzy was at +3 and that dropped to +2, still cautious.

T4 (T101)

Asoka asked for help, CS. Well, sorry Asoka, it's no rose garden over here.
This dropped relations to +1, from pleased to cautious.

At this point I realized that there is a road on the ex farm tile. However, we can't destroy roads in our land. That will reduce the forest growth probability. Oh, well, that was a small chance anyway.

T5 (T102)

Asoka demanded again! He wanted us to stop trading with Alex. Another bitter enemy trading too much.

Well, no again. That dropped him to cautious on 0.

NE was built, started Monastery.

Liz build the Sistine Chapel and discovered Philosophy! She has discovered that knowing Drama, nobody has CS but us yet.

T8 (T105)

GA was born with 15 % chances. First missionary was built and send towards JC. Philosophy discovered!

I've made a break here.

Here is the current situation:

Relations

Spoiler :

You can tell by the "none" mark who is the leader on the columns. They go in the same order as in the rows. (From left to right: Fred, Wash, JC, Asoka...) JC dropped from 5 to 4, Asoka is at only 0 now. Qin isn't pleased anymore, bonuses melt. Well, things will change after Judaism. Izzy isn't sending missionaries, we can't wait for that.

Trading

I haven't made any new trades and I recommend not to trade yet. Liz will be racing for Liberalism, we should avoid trading CS (needed for Paper) as long as possible. Other civs could join the race, too. Let's also wait with Philosophy trading. Waiting is not a problem now. There is only Feudalism, MC and Compass to get right now. We have CS and Philosophy on all civs, we should wait to get the most from our advantage.

Higher half:

Spoiler :

Lower half:

Spoiler :

City

Spoiler :

Second missionary will be built in 2 turns. I'm doing some MM every turn. For example, I've hired 4 scientist at this point because the missionary won't be finished sooner if I use the mines. Farm will be done in 2 turns, then the Cows are in order. After the missionary, aqueduct will be built too so there will be no health problems. We are losing -1 :gold:

at the moment, but this will go away when the GA gets settled. Music can be researched in 4 turns so no tech bulbing and there is no need to upset Washington and Liz with a culture bomb. Settled GA will bring 3 :gold:

+ 3

+ 12

. We were unlucky with the GA, but these numbers are very good too.

Power graph

Spoiler :

I think that our power is fine for now. We should consider disbanding a warrior a bit later and build a stronger unit instead, continent exploring is almost done. Although, we could just use him as a sentry. Scout is in Madrid, looking for missionaries at the moment.

Exploration and some diplomatic issues

Capac has a city we haven't been to because of closed borders. I'm keeping the borders closed because of Washington, Capac is his "bitter enemy". He is only at +2 with us and that will drop even more when we adopt Judaism. If he closes borders, we'll be boxed in. We would need a galley in that case to reach other civs, let's try to avoid that.

Game play

I've set research to paper, it will be done in 4-5 turns. Our two missionaries will both reach Roman cities in about 7 turns. Now, do you want me to stop or to play this converting business through?

P.S. How do you copy the Event log? There are things there not stated in the autolog file. (SGOTM07.txt)

vra379971 · May 28, 2008

I would suggest that you might as well play it through to Paper.

I'll explain my reasoning for the longer turnsets shortly.

Yamps · May 28, 2008

Some comments:

Bitter or worst, they are up to no good.

Yamps said:
AI Attitude Explained

The article is technical, but here is the thing I've been looking for:

Worst Enemy:

An AIs has a worst enemy if there is at least one other Player towards whom its attitude is worse than Cautious. The worst enemy is defined as the one with the lowest iAttitudeVal (source: CvTeamAI.cpp).

Click to expand...

This means that AI needs to have more than one enemy to have a worst enemy!

This interpretation is not true, judging by the last turn-set. It seems I misunderstood that "other Player" part. One player with annoyed attitude is enough, there is no need for another. Asoka was annoyed only with Alex, said Alex was his "bitter enemy" and soon asked us to cancel deals with Alex. Bitter or worst, what's the difference?

Plan update

We should convert Washington, too. That would greatly increase our security. I haven't converted to Judaism yet, proper timing is important. Washington could close borders, missionaries should reach the cities first. There is a possibility that a missionary will fail to do the mission. More missionaries are needed to secure the job. Relations with JC could drop to cautious when we adopt the religion, but more techs at the right time should bring him back to pleased so we can ask him to convert. Same tactic for Washington, trade bonuses when the time arrives. It is important to prepare the cities while the relations are good enough.

Yamps · May 28, 2008

vra379971 said:
I would suggest that you might as well play it through to Paper.

I'll explain my reasoning for the longer turnsets shortly.

Ok, I might as well do it now and post the results. This should be pretty straightforward, but you never know.

marconos · May 28, 2008

What makes you think our Power position is okay? Most of the AI's have a power that is 50% greater then ours. I remember reading that if you power is 50% lower then an AI's you are prone to getting attacked. Cautious relations with the AI's that are near us is also a good chance of getting attacked. Just a concern on my part there.

Using the Great Artist to spawn a Golden age doesn't seem like a great option to me. What is it we are hoping to get out of this golden age? Is there something critical that we are hoping to get by using it? I would just like to know the specific reason to use him this way. Personally I like the idea of settling him for the culture, gold and beaker increase. If you add up the total value of bonuses for the GA -vs- the amount of benefit over the entire run for making the artist part of the city embedding him is a much better option.

I just want to throw up a major caution here. Our position is pretty good but we are in a VERY precarious position. One wrong move and we could get wiped out so we need to continue to monitor and carefully think about everything that we are doing.

vra379971 · May 28, 2008

Settle the GA.

As for the reasoning...

Apr 17, 2008, 05:00 PM - We started. So, we should be done by July. So, we're about 1/2 way in and need to move a bit faster.

That does NOT mean less prep, just means everyone gets longer turnsets. As we plan so well, that really isn't a problem.

Yamps · May 28, 2008

marconos said:
What makes you think our Power position is okay? Most of the AI's have a power that is 50% greater then ours. I remember reading that if you power is 50% lower then an AI's you are prone to getting attacked. Cautious relations with the AI's that are near us is also a good chance of getting attacked. Just a concern on my part there.

Using the Great Artist to spawn a Golden age doesn't seem like a great option to me. What is it we are hoping to get out of this golden age? Is there something critical that we are hoping to get by using it? I would just like to know the specific reason to use him this way. Personally I like the idea of settling him for the culture, gold and beaker increase. If you add up the total value of bonuses for the GA -vs- the amount of benefit over the entire run for making the artist part of the city embedding him is a much better option.

I just want to throw up a major caution here. Our position is pretty good but we are in a VERY precarious position. One wrong move and we could get wiped out so we need to continue to monitor and carefully think about everything that we are doing.

@Power This is something to discuss. Or power has been much worse before. Good relations are very important for avoiding war, "pleased" attitude reduces war declaration chances. Converting Washington is also important to provide a buffer zone. I've been checking the relations regularly, no WHEOOHRN danger.

@Artist Golden age with only one GP isn't possible in Vanilla. I suggested making him a super specialist, I didn't mention golden age at all. I've done that, we have +2gpt at the moment and 100% science.

vra379971 said:
Settle the GA.

As for the reasoning...

Apr 17, 2008, 05:00 PM - We started. So, we should be done by July. So, we're about 1/2 way in and need to move a bit faster.

That does NOT mean less prep, just means everyone gets longer turnsets. As we plan so well, that really isn't a problem.

I believe we'll get the speed soon, after all we are a new team. 2-3 turnsets a weak is the goal. We should use common sense about the turnset length, 10-15 turns should be fine. Playing till an important event like we've been doing rather than fixed number of turns is the right thing to do as well. Good preparation is important, that will actually speed the game up and keep quality.

I've decided to finish 2 turns before Paper. Washington has just discovered CS, we need to discuss our options.

AI Leaders Personality (Vanilla, Warlords, BtS)

This is a good spreadsheet, has a lot of information on the leaders. I've found out that Liz and Washington really like to keep monopoly techs for them selves, especially Liz. However, CS and Philosophy aren't Monopoly techs, at least they shouldn't be, I don't know how is that calculated. I'm not sure are they going to start trading CS and Philosophy away.

I'll upload the save and post the final log shortly.

Yamps · May 28, 2008

Here is the link to the uploaded file:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Unusual_Suspects_SG007_BC0200_01.Civ4SavedGame

Complete event log:

Spoiler :

Here are my notes for the last part of the game:

T8 (T105) continuation

I noticed a Jewish missionary near New York, Asoka is doing his job!

Settled the artist. Culture, gold and beakers. Not that bad at all.

T9 (T106)

Asoka had more ideas, he offered some gold + Compas for CS. I declined again.

Asoka's missionary is going to Nottingham unfortunately.

Christian missionary spotted in Bombay. Interesting, Church of Nativity is not yet built but Asoka is building those missionaries too.

T10 (T107)

Washington has CS and I've decided to stop. Paper is due in 2 turns, missionaries are going to JC, Beijing is building the third one.

City

Spoiler :

Health cap is near, but that won't be a problem. Worker will complete the road and pasture in 8 turns. Aqueduct will be built sooner, but I would build the forth missionary before, there is enough time. Three is the limit, the one being build can go to New York in 1 turn so a fourth missionary can be built. (First two are approaching JC.)

Diplomacy

Spoiler :

Trades

Spoiler :

Time for some rest for me.

vra379971 · May 29, 2008

Well done sir. We've a good deal to talk about....

1 - marconos - On Deck!
2 - classical_hero
3 - kcd_swede
4 - Melior Traiano
5 - Morganknight
6 - shikhee
7 - Yamps - Just Played
8 - Ankka - Up!
9 - vra379971 (Likely Skipped)

-------

So, Ankka, what do you propose on all accounts for your turn at the helm?

Yamps · May 29, 2008

vra379971 said:
Well done sir. We've a good deal to talk about....

1 - marconos - On Deck!
2 - classical_hero
3 - kcd_swede
4 - Melior Traiano
5 - Morganknight
6 - shikhee
7 - Yamps - Just Played
8 - Ankka - Up!
9 - vra379971 (Likely Skipped)

-------

So, Ankka, what do you propose on all accounts for your turn at the helm?

Thanks!

Yes, the situation requires some thought as usual.

Ankka · May 29, 2008

Oh no I need to play.

I'll have a look at the game, post ideas and I'll play tomorrow.

Ankka · May 29, 2008

I'm having trouble opening the save even though I have the dll and the hof mod. Any ideas?

Yamps · May 29, 2008

Ankka said:
Oh no I need to play.

I'll have a look at the game, post ideas and I'll play tomorrow.

What, not enthusiastic about it?

Here are some tips to help you out, I've done more research.

I've examined things closely and reached the following conclusion: Liz and Washington won't trade away CS and Philosophy right away!

First, let me state again that we don't want to trade right now. We are in the Liberalism race, we want to give them CS and Philosophy as late as possible. There is another reason, we want to trade with JC and ask him to convert at the same time. Missionaries will reach him in 5 and 6 turns respectively.

Here is the reasoning:

Attitude explained.

Relevant information:

The numbers displayed on the relations table are not real attitude values. (iAttitudeVal).
Attitude values:

Code:

Friendly:
iAttitudeVal >= +10

Pleased:
iAttitudeVal >= +3

Cautious:
if no other Attitude rule is fulfilled

Annoyed:
iAttitudeVal <= -3

Furious:
iAttitudeVal <= -10

AI Leaders Personality (Vanilla, Warlords, BtS)

Relevant information:

Liz

iTechTradeKnownPercent = 40

Meaning: tech is a monopoly tech if less than 40% (!) of known civs know the tech. Mansa has 0%, btw.

Philosophy & Music are therefore monopoly techs for her.

iNoTechTradeThreshold = 15

However, if Liz has iAttitudeVal >= 15, she will trade the monopoly tech.

Our situation: We can't see the real iAttitude, but this is a very high number. She is friendy with Fred and Asoka, +6 and +8 is displayed. It is extremely unlikely that the real number is at +15 or more and she won't trade.

Facts: she has Philosophy and Music for some time, she is not trading that. Asoka has Music too and we have Philosophy.

This all means that Liz considers Phil and Music for Monopoly techs, she doesn't like anybody so much and she isn't trading.

Are you with me so far?

Washington

iTechTradeKnownPercent = 30
We are the only civ that knows CS, this is not a problem. Washington will consider CS for a monopoly tech.

iNoTechTradeThreshold = 10
This means friendly! We can see that! He is only friendly with Isabella. Number is +9, we should assume that the real number is at +10. However, Isabella doesn't have anything to offer! Washington is most probably willing to trade CS to Isabella, but she doesn't have anything for the trade.

So, my recommendations are:

Don't trade yet. Watch the relations closely every turn and watch what techs does AI want.

Continue with the converting plan, JC and Washington are target civs. Don't revolt to Pacifism yet, it doesn't work without the religion. No religion adopting yet, missionaries first.

The theory says Liz and Washington won't trade CS and Philosophy yet. However, if a trade does occur and I am wrong, report the mischief and scream. :aargh:

Good luck!

Yamps · May 29, 2008

Ankka said:
I'm having trouble opening the save even though I have the dll and the hof mod. Any ideas?

Uh, this is a very bad combination. Vra reported the same problems before! Btw, I hope you managed to sort that out Vra.

Check the basics first:

Do you have the latest HoF mod?
If you have BtS, is it patched to 3.13? Is the latest Bhruic patch installed? That would be wrong! Download the Bts dll for the HoF mod and change the Bhruic's dll. (HoF mod is not using the latest Bhruic patch.)

vra379971 · May 29, 2008

Nope, still not sorted, not that I've had the time lately.

It amazes me, with all the talent on this form, they can't put this mod in a simple shell program installer.

Ankka · May 29, 2008

The mod is there, and because I don't have BtS I downloaded the .dll zip. This combination HAS worked for GOTM saves before on my other computer, I'll test a regular GOTM save now.

Update: even the regular GOTM save won't load... which is crazy, because the same combination HAS worked on another computer. Seriously annoying.

SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

Deity

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