SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Nice work JT!!

It looks really good to have Monarchy, Currency, Calendar and Construction!!

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck (awaiting his return from Spain, if there is a delay, could be Gator if he is available?)
Gator
Mad Professor - Off on an African adventure, when does he return?
rrau
leif
ShannonCT
Jimmy Thunder - Just Played!!

Mistfit

I hope I'm not guilty of playing too many turns without specific group consent....

Once you begin, as long as you feel you have our support, you are the ruling Monarch. Should you feel that you need our advise, then stop and post and ask for whatever you feel you need. Otherwise, go forth and do great things.

My first real concern was that I (we) haven't declared war yet. .

We are at turn 86. We need to start a war during the next turn set. I think this is an important discussion of who and why. Get out your helmets and strap on the breastplate, cause we need to get 'er done in the next 10 to 15 turns...

And I'm not 100% sure on what our philosophy is for tech trades? Are we trying to get us much as we can with our techs, or are we more interested in trading freely? I was trying to get as much from our techs as possible, while still having techs up our sleeve for bribing the parties who are most likely to declare war.

I think you are doing the right thing, maximizing our return on trades as best as you can, minimizing the negative diplo effects of trading to someone's enemy and reserving some techs for bribery into war.

We have a great person due in 5 turns. 73% chance of Scientist. Philosophy has been discovered by the Incans. Should we go for Philosophy or build an Academy? We need Philosophy for Liberalism. We have Metal Casting monopoly, should we trade it so someone will, hopefully, start on Machinery so we can trade for it later? After growth, should we hire another Scientist to speed the next Great Person for Education? A discussion on the strategy of working our way up the tech tree may be in order?

On Diplo, I have no idea what Asoka's deal is with Izzie? Asoka is far and away the leader in score. Julius is the power leader, followed by Asoka, Khan, Alex, Washington, Lizzie, HC, Fred, Toku, Izzie and us. Julius will go to war with anyone we choose and we have Metal Casting and CoL's to entice him.

Much to discuss for this upcoming turn set...

 

[ShannonCT]

Nice work JT. Looks like you've executed our plan well.

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So we want to declare war on someone now. Asoka won't declare on Isabella while he is friendly with her (confirmed by the Leader tables). We have no way of making Asoka less happy with her. Asoka has a -2 attitude for different religion with all of the Buddhists and with Lizzy. It might not go any lower than that.

Asoka is willing to declare on Lizzy, Capac, Alex, and Kublai. We could declare on one of those four, then bring in Julius and Asoka. If we declare on Alex or Kublai, Issy will get less happy with Asoka for declaring on a friend, and if she's unhappy enough to cancel open borders, Asoka will like her less. So we may be able to get Asoka to fight Issy later. I don't see any reason not to declare on Alex or Kublai rather than Issy right now. Kublai would put us in the least danger.

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It looks like our culture should obliterate Nottingham eventually. We're already stealing the netted clams, so we don't need to worry about fighting Lizzy right now. We should build a fishing boat to hook the fish.

 

[ShannonCT]

We have a great person due in 5 turns. 73% chance of Scientist. Philosophy has been discovered by the Incans. Should we go for Philosophy or build an Academy? We need Philosophy for Liberalism. We have Metal Casting monopoly, should we trade it so someone will, hopefully, start on Machinery so we can trade for it later? After growth, should we hire another Scientist to speed the next Great Person for Education? A discussion on the strategy of working our way up the tech tree may be in order?

Right now, we're at 73% for a Great Scientist, but that's going to drop over the next five turns to around 68%. Should we hire a scientist or scientists to get our GP in 3-4 turns with a 72-73% chance of a GS?

If we do get a GS, I think we should at least give consideration to bulbing Philosophy. If we switch to Caste System and Pacifism, we can hire enough scientists to get GP #3 (75-80% chance of GS) by the time we finish Civil Service.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"It was pretty uneventful." And that's good thing, JT.

Will check save and probably post more tomorrow afternoon, but two quick queries:

What about including Washington in our war? We certainly need to insure his friendship in the near term.

Should we revolt to the Caste System immediately and go all out to maximize the probability of getting a GS?

 

[leif erikson]

So we want to declare war on someone now. Asoka won't declare on Isabella while he is friendly with her (confirmed by the Leader tables). We have no way of making Asoka less happy with her. Asoka has a -2 attitude for different religion with all of the Buddhists and with Lizzy. It might not go any lower than that.

If we can't increase Asoka's negatives towards Izzie, then our only chance is to increase our positives with him, through shared conflict.

Asoka is willing to declare on Lizzy, Capac, Alex, and Kublai. We could declare on one of those four, then bring in Julius and Asoka. If we declare on Alex or Kublai, Issy will get less happy with Asoka for declaring on a friend, and if she's unhappy enough to cancel open borders, Asoka will like her less. So we may be able to get Asoka to fight Issy later. I don't see any reason not to declare on Alex or Kublai rather than Issy right now. Kublai would put us in the least danger.

What about including Washington in our war? We certainly need to insure his friendship in the near term.

The first question I am thinking about is who we want to be our PA. Are we still thinking about Asoka or Julius? These two seem to be the predominate choices?

Right now, Washington will not consider going to war with anyone because he doesn't like us enough. I think we may have to gift Washington Metal Casting?

What I am thinking about is the possibility of starting two separate wars. Asoka with Lizzie and Julius with Khan. In both cases, these civs have power advantages over their opponents. Asoka has Longbows while Lizzie does not. Julius has Cats while Khan does not. In both cases, they are located near their intended targets and could use captured cities effectively. In this way, we provide each of these civs a way to increase their capabilities by capturing enemy cities. We could view this as an early test. Let's see who is most successful and then we have a choice over who we wish to PA with?

The only real problem with this strategy is that Lizzie can attack us. I think we need to have the Iron hooked up and build a few Swords. So we could begin immediately with Julius versus Khan. Gifting Metal Casting to Washington, we can see if that helps us to get him to be willing to at least break his Open Border agreement with Lizzie? See how it goes and then, perhaps, be able to declare on Lizzie and bring at least Asoka.

It looks like our culture should obliterate Nottingham eventually. We're already stealing the netted clams, so we don't need to worry about fighting Lizzy right now. We should build a fishing boat to hook the fish.

Perhaps. I guess I am impatient and wish to see a hole where Nottingham sits. I could be very wrong about this...

Right now, we're at 73% for a Great Scientist, but that's going to drop over the next five turns to around 68%. Should we hire a scientist or scientists to get our GP in 3-4 turns with a 72-73% chance of a GS?

I think this is a good thing to do if it fits in with our war strategy.

If we do get a GS, I think we should at least give consideration to bulbing Philosophy. If we switch to Caste System and Pacifism, we can hire enough scientists to get GP #3 (75-80% chance of GS) by the time we finish Civil Service.

Philosophy is very useful in many ways. Let's think about this a bit. We really need at least three or four Great Scientists. One for Philosophy, one for an Academy and one for Education (or even two to get there quicker). Then we can grab Liberalism as quickly as we can. Before we get Liberalism, we will need to have traded for Compass, Machinery and Optics so we can grab Astronomy as our free tech. Another Great Person wouldn't hurt our effort to get to Communism either.

Should we revolt to the Caste System immediately and go all out to maximize the probability of getting a GS?

Yes, and should this include a change to Pacifism? In this case, should we get a Great Scientist, I think we have to bulb Philosophy. Perhaps we should wait for any changes until we have completed this in order to get a two-for-one deal in changing civics?

 

[rrau]

I'd only wait the few turns to see if we can bulb it with our GS. If we get a GM, we'll need to revolt to Caste without waititng for Pacifism, but since our next GP due soon, we can wait.

P.S. Leaving after work for the conference. Taking the laptop to hopefully keep up with discussions if there's a wireless connection at the conference hotel. but won't be able to look at the save, so pics appreciated.

 

[leif erikson]

I'd only wait the few turns to see if we can bulb it with our GS. If we get a GM, we'll need to revolt to Caste without waiting for Pacifism, but since our next GP due soon, we can wait.

Agreed.

I was also thinking about HC and his Incans. He beat us to Philosophy so I think we should keep an eye on his progress. We can't let him beat us to Liberalism. I'm sure Julius wouldn't mind helping out if need be, for a price of course.

P.S. Leaving after work for the conference. Taking the laptop to hopefully keep up with discussions if there's a wireless connection at the conference hotel. but won't be able to look at the save, so pics appreciated.

Have a safe and enjoyable trip. If things get boring, we'll try to provide you with some excitement...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Is JT's final save available?

 

[leif erikson]

Is JT's final save available?

Yes, you can get it HERE.

EDIT - Interesting. Just had a peek at the graphs on the progress page. It seems to me that Murky has forgone an early wonder and built a Library.

The power graphs are very strange?

 

[ShannonCT]

The power graphs are very strange?

The power graphs are mostly reflecting the techs that grant power points: BW, IW, HBR, Math, Construction, etc...

 

[leif erikson]

The power graphs are mostly reflecting the techs that grant power points: BW, IW, HBR, Math, Construction, etc...

Ours seems much smoother than many of them. Do the impressive gains indicate tech trades, mostly in a turn or two? And some are quite flat, perhaps they haven't traded as many techs just yet but are holding some back?

 

[ShannonCT]

Ours seems much smoother than many of them. Do the impressive gains indicate tech trades, mostly in a turn or two? And some are quite flat, perhaps they haven't traded as many techs just yet but are holding some back?

Well, if a team trades for several military techs at once and submits a save after only a few turns, you'll see a big spike in the power graph. Our graph is smooth because we're submitting saves over longer intervals. If you look at our in-game power graph, you'll see the whole picture.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I've looked at the save and here are my tentative plans:

Run scientists to get a Great Person in three turns (but grow first turn), then pause for a discussion with knowledge of what kind of GP we have available to use.

Move workers immediately to mine and road iron (we've no immediate use for another cottage), which will allow us to know soon if Alex has iron for phalanxes.

Build aquaduct quickly -- we need to discuss whether workboat, monastery, barracks, sword, or cat is best after 'duct.

Don't like fighting the Incas, as they have open borders with America and a capital city on a hill. Agree that it's initially either the Mongols or the Greeks. I'd prefer Greece, since it's close enough for us to affect the outcome and also within range of our Hindu brethren, but it's a close call unless Alex has no iron.

Questions:

How dangerous would it be to send several units into battle against Greece (axes should be effective and a cat might turn the tide with help from our friends)? Are our friends likely to fully participate or to make peace after ten turns?

What are the likely diplomatic requests that I'll have to deal with?

Is the save I got from leif's post one that I can go ahead and play from?

Would like to play three turns in 24 hours.

 

[DJMGator13]

What are the likely diplomatic requests that I'll have to deal with?

I need JT's log from his second session. As soon as warfare starts we'll start getting asked to Join Wars.

If we declare on Alex or Kublai, Issy will get less happy with Asoka for declaring on a friend, and if she's unhappy enough to cancel open borders, Asoka will like her less. So we may be able to get Asoka to fight Issy later. I don't see any reason not to declare on Alex or Kublai rather than Issy right now. Kublai would put us in the least danger.

I like this also. Quick question: On deity how quickly will the AI bring in war allies? If it is only a few turns we may want to buy the DOW between Asoka & Alex while staying on the sidelines for a few turns. This puts the noted strain on the relationship with Issy, a -1 hit for declaring on a friend. Issy sees Alex as +9 right now so if Alex asks she should declare on Asoka, but if we join the war from the start he will probably buy her in against us and not Asoka. As a second bonus or option this might give us a chance to wait for Asoka to ask us to Join the War as his ally. We'd improve our relationship even further with Asoka because we currently don't have the "We have given help" bonus. But and it is a big but, it may take several turns for this to happen and Asoka could ask us to join first, which isn't that bad.

Starting a second war with JC v HC is good also, because it will tie up 2 more AIs in that region. We could join the war right from the start or go ahead and try to pick up the Give Help point by waiting until asked.

As you mentioned the "our trade relations have been fair and forthright" has a max of +4, I verified in one of my prior save games. The strange thing here is that the xml worksheets is reporting the bonus trade max at only +2 so either the worksheet is wrong or there is another component to the "fair & forthright".

Btw, the "bonus resource" trade max shown in the worksheet is correct. I checked a few more saves and you can even see it in our current game. These are 2 seperate bonuses. The "fair & forthright" bonus is not listed in the worksheet but does range from 1 to 4.

 

[ShannonCT]

Don't like fighting the Incas, as they have open borders with America and a capital city on a hill. Agree that it's initially either the Mongols or the Greeks. I'd prefer Greece, since it's close enough for us to affect the outcome and also within range of our Hindu brethren, but it's a close call unless Alex has no iron.

The danger with declaring on Alex is that he may send a big stack our way before our war ally has time to threaten his cities. Kublai is so far away that he poses very little danger.

How dangerous would it be to send several units into battle against Greece (axes should be effective and a cat might turn the tide with help from our friends)? Are our friends likely to fully participate or to make peace after ten turns?

Our friends are likely to participate fully (well, as fully as the AI is capable) and not make peace after 10 turns. If Alex has only archers, sending in a few axemen would be a good way to train a 10XP unit, so we can build Heroic Epic later.

Is the save I got from leif's post one that I can go ahead and play from?

Yes.

I like this also. Quick question: On deity how quickly will the AI bring in war allies? If it is only a few turns we may want to buy the DOW between Asoka & Alex while staying on the sidelines for a few turns. This puts the noted strain on the relationship with Issy, a -1 hit for declaring on a friend. Issy sees Alex as +9 right now so if Alex asks she should declare on Asoka, but if we join the war from the start he will probably buy her in against us and not Asoka. As a second bonus or option this might give us a chance to wait for Asoka to ask us to Join the War as his ally. We'd improve our relationship even further with Asoka because we currently don't have the "We have given help" bonus. But and it is a big but, it may take several turns for this to happen and Asoka could ask us to join first, which isn't that bad.

We don't have enough techs/cash to bribe Asoka into war with anyone straight out. We're going to have to either declare on someone ourselves, or bribe JC first and then bribe Asoka.

I don't think we need to worry about trying to earn the +1 for "you gave us help". We're at +8 with Asoka already, and we can still get another +2 for shared religion, +3 for fair trade, and +2 or more for mutual military struggle. We're close to the +11 that we need to be able to trade monopoly techs with Asoka.

 

[leif erikson]

Run scientists to get a Great Person in three turns (but grow first turn), then pause for a discussion with knowledge of what kind of GP we have available to use.

Build aqueduct quickly -- we need to discuss whether workboat, monastery, barracks, sword, or cat is best after 'duct.

If we're going to war, seems like a Barracks and then some troops. A Work Boat requires 2 turns, so we may be able to fit that in somewhere. Please remember that our "ally" must take the city. If we do, it autorazes.

Don't like fighting the Incas, as they have open borders with America and a capital city on a hill. Agree that it's initially either the Mongols or the Greeks. I'd prefer Greece, since it's close enough for us to affect the outcome and also within range of our Hindu brethren, but it's a close call unless Alex has no iron.

The danger with declaring on Alex is that he may send a big stack our way before our war ally has time to threaten his cities. Kublai is so far away that he poses very little danger.

Currently, Alex will not be able to send troops to reach us as he does not have Open Borders with either Washington or Lizzie. He may declare on them or try to make an accord, but until he does, we're free from his stacks.

How dangerous would it be to send several units into battle against Greece (axes should be effective and a cat might turn the tide with help from our friends)? Are our friends likely to fully participate or to make peace after ten turns?

We only need to be sure that, should Alex find a way through Washington's or Lizzie's territory, that we can defend ourselves from a stack headed our way.

Is the save I got from leif's post one that I can go ahead and play from?

Yes, I linked it from the Progress and Results page on the GOTM server.

Would like to play three turns in 24 hours.

Yes, Good Luck!

We don't have enough techs/cash to bribe Asoka into war with anyone straight out. We're going to have to either declare on someone ourselves, or bribe JC first and then bribe Asoka.

Just checked and this is true. Julius won't even agree for both techs, and they are valued ones too.

I don't think we need to worry about trying to earn the +1 for "you gave us help". We're at +8 with Asoka already, and we can still get another +2 for shared religion, +3 for fair trade, and +2 or more for mutual military struggle. We're close to the +11 that we need to be able to trade monopoly techs with Asoka.

I agree, we seem to have plenty of +'s to gain.

 

[DJMGator13]

We don't have enough techs/cash to bribe Asoka into war with anyone straight out. We're going to have to either declare on someone ourselves, or bribe JC first and then bribe Asoka.

I only looked at who was in white, didn't check what it would cost. The JC vrs HC (or was it Kublai?) war can be signed without us having to declare, but as we know our goal is the 40 turns of shared war. We don't need to do anything other then protect our land and keep researching. Would be nice to bring Washington in as a war partner just to stop any troops from coming through his land. I doubt we can do anything about troops coming through Liz's land.

We've picked up a silver tile near England and American lands in that last border expansion.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The danger with declaring on Alex is that he may send a big stack our way before our war ally has time to threaten his cities. Kublai is so far away that he poses very little danger. Maybe I'm missing something, but how can his stack get to us if Alex does not have open borders with Washington?

Our friends are likely to participate fully (well, as fully as the AI is capable) and not make peace after 10 turns. If Alex has only archers, sending in a few axemen would be a good way to train a 10XP unit, so we can build Heroic Epic later. Yes, but what if he has iron? Do we still attack him? Axes and a cat should have an advantage, unless he has horses. At the least, we could pillage and reduce cultural defenses. From your experience testing, do I need to worry about a sneak attack by someone else while forces are occupied with the Greeks? Do we want the war to go on and on, and might that happen?

We don't have enough techs/cash to bribe Asoka into war with anyone straight out. We're going to have to either declare on someone ourselves, or bribe JC first and then bribe Asoka. Understood.
QUOTE]

What are the team's thoughts regarding bribing Julius to go to war immediately or waiting at least three turns?

 

[leif erikson]

What are the team's thoughts regarding bribing Julius to go to war immediately or waiting at least three turns?

I checked this and Julius isn't going to war either. I offered him both techs and clicked on "What would make this deal work?" Julius gave me the big thumbs down!!

Not sure if he will join us if we declare, or not??

 

[ShannonCT]

I only looked at who was in white, didn't check what it would cost. The JC vrs HC (or was it Kublai?) war can be signed without us having to declare, but as we know our goal is the 40 turns of shared war. We don't need to do anything other then protect our land and keep researching. Would be nice to bring Washington in as a war partner just to stop any troops from coming through his land. I doubt we can do anything about troops coming through Liz's land.

Checking the save, JC will declare on Issy or Kublai for MC and CoL. Toku will declare on Issy for a lot of techs. To declare on Alex, JC and Asoka would at least need us to declare first (and even then, there's no guarantee, but my experience tells me they would).

I see your point about Alex being unable to reach us. Lizzy and Washington are annoyed with him, so we are pretty safe.

Yes, but what if he has iron? Do we still attack him? Axes and a cat should have an advantage, unless he has horses. At the least, we could pillage and reduce cultural defenses. From your experience testing, do I need to worry about a sneak attack by someone else while forces are occupied with the Greeks? Do we want the war to go on and on, and might that happen?

If Alex has iron, he's likely to have quite a few axemen. Sending in just a few units against melee units is probably throwing them away, unless we can figure out how to keep them in our ally's stack.

What are the team's thoughts regarding bribing Julius to go to war immediately or waiting at least three turns?

I'd say we should bribe JC to attack Kublai right now. We're not ready to get involved in the fighting right now anyway. We have an aquaduct, WB, and barracks to build before we start producing units.