SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Yes. If we mine and road the silver, can we trade it? Yes, if nothing else for a little gpt. I suppose at least while we have Open Borders with Washington. Will do, unless someone else advises against.

Improving relations with Washington can best be accomplished by meeting his next tech demand or with a gift of tech? Would we want to gift him CS in a few turns?

I think this is a difficult question.
I agree that the Academy will provide the most beakers over the long haul. And Fred points out the a GS is the only way to get it.
I think the case can be made for bulbing as well because Philosophy is a valuable tech that other civs will trade for, or go to war to obtain. It might be of use in getting Washington in a more friendly place and revolting to Pacifism would help get another GP sooner? The value of the tech for trading, etc., could point to bulbing it for short term gain, especially since HC of the Incans has it already. Right now, I don't see much immediate use for Philosophy except to accelerate GP production, and I'd rather concentrate on growing our city.
The other advantage of an Academy is the additional culture, since we are beginning to feel the pinch from Washington's cities. Don't think this as an issue, as we seem to be outcompeting Wash in culture -- see furs vs. cows above.

I think the value of Philosophy, Pacifism and trade may be more valuable at the moment that an Academy? How long until we see our next Great Person?

Time to the next GP will depend on how many scientists we run.

If we opt for an academy and maximum growth, it will greatly accelerate progress towards CS and Bureacracy (and we can switch to Caste System then as well). Then we can research to Philosophy with 100% faster research, which even at our present population will get us there in 8 additional turns (plus one for revolting). Hard to believe that that won't put us in a much better position than bulbing, but I may be convinced otherwise.
QUOTE]

Still like to know what the turn number is so I can relate to Gator's
info.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Save here: SGOTM07 BC-0650.Civ4SavedGame (Thanks to leif.)

 

[Cactus Pete]

"From Wikipedia: Al-Kindi" Thanks, Fred. Not surprised I've never heard of him. Doubt he's in many standard History textbooks.

 

[leif erikson]

Still like to know what the turn number is so I can relate to Gator's
info.

You can turn on the turn numbers in the HOF Mod. In game, click on the icon you would use to save or exit the game. In that menu, click "Options". A window will come up with a bunch of tabs at the top labeled; "Game", "Graphics", "Audio", :Other", "HOF1", "HOF2" and "HOF3". Click on HOF3. On the right side of the screen, you should see a list of things with boxes to their left. Click on the box (so an x appears in the box) for "Show Clock Turn Text" and "Show Clock Max Turns". Click on "Exit". Whne you return to the game main screen, you should find the turn numbers up in the right corner of the screen next to the game date, above the advisor buttons.

Hope that helps.

EDIT - Been trying to finish BOTM05.
Just opened this save and we are on turn number 89 - 650 BC. In case my instructions above are unclear...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Just opened this save and we are on turn number 89 - 650 BC. In case my instructions above are unclear...

Well, your instructions were clear, and I did as instructed, but my screen reads 90/460, not 89. Why?

 

[ShannonCT]

Well, your instructions were clear, and I did as instructed, but my screen reads 90/460, not 89. Why?

There are options to make the first turn turn 0 or turn 1. I guess you need to set it to the turn 0 option.

Looking at the Philosophy option, here are the turns to next GP:

Without pacifism (assuming 1 turn for revolting to Bureaucracy):
w/ 0 scientists - 15 turns
w/ 1 scientist - 12 turns
w/ 2 scientists - 10 turns

With pacifism (assuming 2 turns for revolting to Pacifism and later Bureaucracy):
w/ 0 scientists - 13 turns
w/ 1 scientist - 10 turns
w/ 2 scientists - 8 turns

So pacifism gets us the next GP 2 turns sooner in any case.

I'm thinking we should just go ahead and build the academy. There's only a 60-70% chance that our next GP is a GS, and if we don't get a GS, we're going to be losing out on a lot of beakers.

If we self-research Philosophy after CS, a subsequent GS or GM can bulb Paper (please no Great Artist - hakka hakka).

 

[ShannonCT]

Plan to finish Aqueduct, then build workboat and barracks.

If you can trade for Compass soon, Harbor takes priority over Barracks.

What about mining and roading the silver as a next task for the workers? Then just cottaging and roading?

Yes, mine the silver. It will give us a resource for our allies to demand from us, so we can earn more diplo points.

What can be done to improve relations with Washington and get Asoka willing to trade tech?

Are we in a big hurry to get Washington pleased with us? Maybe we can gift him Compass when we get it. With Asoka, was it true that he was willing to trade monopoly techs before we declared on Issy? If so, that means we only need one more diplo point to get back to that position. We'll get more diplo points from shared religion and shared war without doing anything. I wouldn't gift him CS though.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"So pacifism gets us the next GP 2 turns sooner in any case." During which time, we are researching at a significantly slower rate without the academy. I don't understand why we don't get GP's 33% faster with Pacifism, but I agree with your conclusion. Looks to be a much clearer choice than I realized.

 

[Mad Professor]

"So pacifism gets us the next GP 2 turns sooner in any case." During which time, we are researching at a significantly slower rate without the academy. I don't understand why we don't get GP's 33% faster with Pacifism, but I agree with your conclusion. Looks to be a much clearer choice than I realized.

I have realised that OCC is weighted towards the power of buldings (and bureacracy) because buildings such as an academy increase your entire empire's research - bureacracy does the same - whereas pacifism does no more than it would do if it wasn't OCC. So that 50% for the academy is a really important 50%

 

[Frederiksberg]

If you can trade for Compass soon, Harbor takes priority over Barracks.

We need a Harbor soon. It brings 3 health and 50% yield from our trade routes which is at least 6 gpt with Bureaucracy or >= 10 beakers per turn.

 

[leif erikson]

After looking at the save, I agree with building an Academy. The next question is what to do after CS? Should we research Philosophy and hope for a Great Scientist to bulb Paper. I think this may be the way to go?

We should check the trade screen every turn now. We need Compass, Machinery and Optics. Once we get CS, I think we trade it freely to our allies. Once we get Paper, I think we need to clam up a bit to ensure Education and Liberalism?

@CP - Did you find the option in the HOF Mod for turn 1? It is located above the check boxes of the other two changes I gave you last time. In this case, you should uncheck it.

 

[rrau]

Sounds good so far.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for all the feedback. In response;

Now on turn 89.

Asoka was not willing (briefly) to trade all his techs to us, but I failed to check his reasons for withholding one (because it didn't occur to me that his willingness would be so short lived), and I've forgotten which one it was. Sorry.

Agree that Compass and harbor should be a priority.

Getting conflicting points of view regarding the freedom with which I should trade CS among our allies. Also, no one has commented on whether I should gift MC to Julius.

I do plan to research Philosophy after CS to get to Pacifism. Then Paper, but, wouldn't a better use of our next GS (or GM, if we don't trade for Feudalism) be towards Education, which would gain the full research potential of the GP? Also, if we don't trade for Feudalism, we can build cheap archers that can later be upgraded (I'm thinking gold is going to be in greater supply than hammers, expecially after we can trade tech intercontinentally).

Thinking that the cottaged grass SSE of the city might, in time, be used as a farm, once we get CS and the neighboring American farm tile converts. That would allow us to run more GS's or to grow faster. For that reason, I'm inclined to cottage the tile 2W and to put citizens there or on coastal tiles rather than on that particular grassland cottage.

 

[Mad Professor]

I think anything we can do to shorten the road to liberalism is good. We need it first and Capac at least might beat us. Getting Paper sooner rather than later, then sitting on it a little while to help us get a little headway there. The AI is often a little slow to get paper and education - at least that's often where I come from behind in the race to liberalism if I happen to be behind.

Waiting to use a GP on education would mean holding back on feudalism? What's beyond feudalism that would be important? Nothing much for getting liberalism quickly I don't think? I don't have the table in front of me right now...

 

[ShannonCT]

Getting conflicting points of view regarding the freedom with which I should trade CS among our allies. Also, no one has commented on whether I should gift MC to Julius.

I think we can trade CS for Compass and Machinery if they become available. Is there any other tech we need right now? Theology, Feudalism, and Music are useless. I would say that we shouldn't gift CS to anyone. Gifting MC to Julius would be OK, as it might encourage him to research Machinery.

I do plan to research Philosophy after CS to get to Pacifism. Then Paper, but, wouldn't a better use of our next GS (or GM, if we don't trade for Feudalism) be towards Education, which would gain the full research potential of the GP? Also, if we don't trade for Feudalism, we can build cheap archers that can later be upgraded (I'm thinking gold is going to be in greater supply than hammers, expecially after we can trade tech intercontinentally).

If we time our next GP to coincide with the discovery of Philosophy, we can decide whether or not to self-research Paper. A GM cannot bulb Education, so he would best be used for Paper. A GS would best be saved for Education to get the full beaker value. And yes, Feudalism should be avoided. Cheap archers can be gifted to our PA partner for upgrade to rifles or grenadiers. And avoiding Feudalism means a later GM can bulb part of Printing Press. PP is lower on the GM tech list than Guilds, so we don't want Feudalism to make Guilds available.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Thinking that the cottaged grass SSE of the city might, in time, be used as a farm, once we get CS and the neighboring American farm tile converts. That would allow us to run more GS's or to grow faster. For that reason, I'm inclined to cottage the tile 2W and to put citizens there or on coastal tiles rather than on that particular grassland cottage.

A grassland farm is only one extra food. I don't see how this can be better than developing a grassland cottage that will eventually provide 7-9 gpt with the Bureaucracy bonus. Cottage economy is simply stronger than specialist economy in the long term. I would rather start working as many cottages as possible and as early as possible.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we can trade CS for Compass and Machinery if they become available. Is there any other tech we need right now? Theology, Feudalism, and Music are useless. I would say that we shouldn't gift CS to anyone. Gifting MC to Julius would be OK, as it might encourage him to research Machinery. I'll go with all that.

If we time our next GP to coincide with the discovery of Philosophy Think I can do that. , we can decide whether or not to self-research Paper. A GM cannot bulb Education, so he would best be used for Paper. Yes, I missed that. A GS would best be saved for Education to get the full beaker value. And yes, Feudalism should be avoided. Cheap archers can be gifted to our PA partner for upgrade to rifles or grenadiers. And avoiding Feudalism means a later GM can bulb part of Printing Press. PP is lower on the GM tech list than Guilds, so we don't want Feudalism to make Guilds available.

Right . . . next players make note.

 

[leif erikson]

iirc, Archers can also be upgraded to Cho-Ko-Nu's, which I would rather have than Longbows. Should someone find a way into our territory, the collateral damage inflicted by Cho-Ko-Nu's is nice to have to weaken them. I don't think we want too large a military as long as we can avoid doing so, but may need the potential to build some units quickly, just in case.

I agree with SCT. I think we can trade CS around to our allies. If they have Machinery, that will also give them an advantage of Maces against our common enemies.

Let's see where we are once Philosophy is completed and we see what we have to work with for GP.

So far, so good. Keep up the good work.Good Luck.

 

[Cactus Pete]

A grassland farm is only one extra food. I don't see how this can be better than developing a grassland cottage that will eventually provide 7-9 gpt with the Bureaucracy bonus. Cottage economy is simply stronger than specialist economy in the long term. I would rather start working as many cottages as possible and as early as possible.

There are other grasses available to be cottaged and workers available to cottage them. An added 3-food tile might help us grow to a full economy faster (saving a turn here or there) and then the farm could be cottaged. Just trying to keep that option open for the time being. No argument about the goal of a cottage economy.

 

[ShannonCT]

A grassland farm is only one extra food. I don't see how this can be better than developing a grassland cottage that will eventually provide 7-9 gpt with the Bureaucracy bonus. Cottage economy is simply stronger than specialist economy in the long term. I would rather start working as many cottages as possible and as early as possible.

I agree. One more food won't make much difference in our growth rate. If we were working all of our resources except stone, and all of our cottages, we would have 8 surplus food. Right now, we're losing three food to unhealthiness. But with the coming aqueduct, fish, and cows (our culture is winning the battle for the cows), and later a harbor, we will be healthy up to Pop15. The difference between 8 surplus food and 9 surplus food isn't enough to justify the lost commerce of a cottage. One food is worth half of a scientist. As soon as a cottage grows to a hamlet in 10 turns, it's already bringing in 4.5 base beakers vs. 1.5 for a half a scientist.

We can still run a specialist or two, especially when we don't have any urgent need for hammers. After the aqeduct and workboat are finished, we can use the citizens who were working the stone and marble and put them to work as scientists to speed up our next GP and reduce the chance of getting a GA. There's no urgency for the barracks. When we're ready to build a harbor or university, we can put them back on the stone and marble.

Comparing ourselves to the team that will probably be our strongest competition, Murky Waters, we have some likely disadvantages and advantages. It looks like they skipped an early wonder to beeline for Alpha and Lit. They probably got the GLib before us, and their first GS before us. In turn, they'll probably get Bureaucracy before us. On the flip side, we are outculturing Washington for the silver, and will soon be outculturing him for the cows (it's even possible that MW is being outcultured for the furs). We outcultured Lizzy for the clams and fish. We also bulbed MC before MW should have been able to get it. The combination of the silver, gold, and forge gives us 4 happiness. So it looks like we should be in a better position to grow faster than MW with our additional health/happiness resources. We can overtake any lead they have from an early academy/bureaucracy by growing more cottages than they.