SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

If our first GS is going for an Academy, then Pacifism is many turns away. If we're going to revolt to Slavery and Organized Religion, now would seem to be the time. The alternative would be to wait for Hereditary rule and switch all three at once, but I think that will cost two turns and would represent no efficiency -- so right now, if we're going to do it.

I'm not entirely sure the first Scientist should go to an Academy. I think it will depend upon what we see at the time. If no one has Philosophy, that merits consideration because it denies another religion on our continent, keeping the blocks we have now, and it is a great tech to trade. The trades may be worth more in beakers than the Academy will provide in the short term.

I agree on the civics change. I would have to check how long we have until our next Great Person, hopefully, a Scientist.

Since health issues will minimize the number of scientists that we will be able to run and still grow (assuming the likely event that we get Monarchy soon), building the NEpic to double the production of the GLIB scientists and any others that we can manage certainly continues to merit priority after the forge.

Yes, surely. Getting Compass and a Harbor would help this as well.

Two civs now have 2 dyes and Calendar. Those who have tested: How important is it not to miss out on one the dyes? Does Monarchy and Hereditary rule render that a minor consideration?

Yes, I think it does make it less of a consideration. If we need more happiness, then we build another Cho-Ko-Nu. Currency becomes important because we will need to trade some techs for Gold to maintain 100% research. Although, as long as the other civs have it, we can trade for Gold.

The only problem I see with Hereditary rule is when we go on the offense, say against Nottingham. Then we will need to send some of the troops out of Beijing and so it wouldn't hurt to have the Dyes.

Also, in Pacifism, the more units, the more maintenance.

Oh, on gifting techs? I think we can do some of this. The testing experience tells me that we need to maintain a reserve of techs that can be used to buy in allies. Also, we will need to trade techs for Gold to offset the costs of supporting our military and maintaining 100% research.

The fastest way to happy relations seems to me to be "mutual military struggles" and "brothers and sisters of faith". There is a pretty good boost when meeting a demand for a tech as well. Doesn't gifting produce less of an effect?

 

[Cactus Pete]

"The fastest way to happy relations seems to me to be "mutual military struggles" and "brothers and sisters of faith". There is a pretty good boost when meeting a demand for a tech as well. Doesn't gifting produce less of an effect?"

I was hoping someone could tell me how much of, and how fast, an effect gifting a tech has. As we are not going to war immediately and we already benefit from most of the faith-based effect available, gifting would seem worth pursuing -- I just don't know exactly how it works. You make a good argument for holding at least some of them in reserve (and a good argument for Philosophy, as well).

 

[DJMGator13]

Oh, on gifting techs? I think we can do some of this. The testing experience tells me that we need to maintain a reserve of techs that can be used to buy in allies. Also, we will need to trade techs for Gold to offset the costs of supporting our military and maintaining 100% research.

The fastest way to happy relations seems to me to be "mutual military struggles" and "brothers and sisters of faith". There is a pretty good boost when meeting a demand for a tech as well. Doesn't gifting produce less of an effect?

It takes numerous tech trades to add +1 to the diplo rating, at deity level we may not reach this bonus point.

Thanks, Gator. I can open this, and I am able to make some sense out of it, but when my turn comes would it be reasonable to ask you to list a few of the most probable requests to which the optimal response would not be obvious?

Also, would very much like your thoughts regarding my query above: "Let's discuss immediately gifting some techs to our brothers of the faith, plus the Incas? Who can we get monopoly tech trading with?"

Trading with Asoka gives us the best opportunity to acquire a monopoly tech quickly, his iTechTradeKnownPercent with 10 known AIs equates to 2. Alex, Wash, Capac, Fred & Kublai all are equal to 3. I'll update the spreadsheet next time to include the actual number and not just the percentage.

BTW, has anyone noticed that Elizabeth has not met Kublai and Isabella? There are currently no tech brokering options there but we may want to keep an eye on that. (But these are not the best partners to be trading with.)

 

[DJMGator13]

"The fastest way to happy relations seems to me to be "mutual military struggles" and "brothers and sisters of faith". There is a pretty good boost when meeting a demand for a tech as well. Doesn't gifting produce less of an effect?"

I was hoping someone could tell me how much of, and how fast, an effect gifting a tech has. As we are not going to war immediately and we already benefit from most of the faith-based effect available, gifting would seem worth pursuing -- I just don't know exactly how it works. You make a good argument for holding at least some of them in reserve (and a good argument for Philosophy, as well).

Asoka's MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US is set at 5 and is divide by 100. That means we need to trade 20 techs with Asoka to gain the +1 bonus for tech trading.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Asoka's MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US is set at 5 and is divide by 100. That means we need to trade 20 techs with Asoka to gain the +1 bonus for tech trading.

Nevermind.

 

[ShannonCT]

Also, would very much like your thoughts regarding my query above: "Let's discuss immediately gifting some techs to our brothers of the faith, plus the Incas? Who can we get monopoly tech trading with?"

There is some potential benefit from gifting techs to AI. Gifting techs improves the bonus for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright." Usually 1 tech gift gives one additional point. This diplo category has a max of +4.

There's another category "you've shared your technological discoveries with us" that takes 10-20 tech trades to get just +1 diplo. We won't be getting this bonus with anyone for a while.

Julius, Capac, and Toku are the best candidates for gifting techs to. Those three AI will be willing to trade us monopoly techs if our relations are above +5. We're at +5 with Julius right now, so 1 gift should put us over the line. We could also just wait for another diplo point for shared religion, of which we can get get 1 more point max with Julius. If we see Julius with a monopoly tech soon, we can gift him Lit and that should open him to trading.

Our other three friends (Asoka, Fred, and Washington) won't trade monopoly techs until we go over +10.

If any of the AI ask us for a tech gift, we'll get +1 for "you gave us help" as well as the bonus for "fair trade relations". We can't afford to refuse tech requests from our friends.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"There is some potential benefit from gifting techs to AI. Gifting techs improves the bonus for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright." Usually 1 tech gift gives one additional point. This diplo category has a max of +4."

Well then, mind.

 

[ShannonCT]

I agree on the civics change. I would have to check how long we have until our next Great Person, hopefully, a Scientist.

I'm not sure we need a civics change quite yet. Slavery doesn't appear like it's going to be much use. We've already passed the danger point. And OR won't be much help for the forge (with a 100% bonus) or National Epic (with a 175% bonus). I expect that Monarchy will be available soon, so I'd suggest we wait for a time when we can change to HR and OR in 1 turn.

Yes, I think it does make it less of a consideration. If we need more happiness, then we build another Cho-Ko-Nu. Currency becomes important because we will need to trade some techs for Gold to maintain 100% research. Although, as long as the other civs have it, we can trade for Gold.

The only problem I see with Hereditary rule is when we go on the offense, say against Nottingham. Then we will need to send some of the troops out of Beijing and so it wouldn't hurt to have the Dyes.

I wouldn't worry much about happiness. We can just build more units and trade for gold. We won't be doing much of our own fighting. When we eventually get a PA, it's nice to have a lot of obsolete units to gift to our ally. After we've finished using marble, we need to think about getting our stone back from Asoka so we can use it for Oxford.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I expect that Monarchy will be available soon, so I'd suggest we wait for a time when we can change to HR and OR in 1 turn." I'm good with that if you're sure it will cost only one turn.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

It is interesting that Asoka considers Izzy a close friend. He is at 0 with her (+1 for years of peace and +1 for Open Borders and a -2 for heathen religion). Yet, she is at -2 with Asoka (same + reeasons but a -4 for heathen religion) Given a bit more time, this should change in our favor, I think?

Having Julius attack Izzy is a good start as Izzy can't get to us. The problem may be that, until Asoka changes his stance with Izzy, we will get a -1 with Asoka for declaring on a friend. Looking at the power graph, Julius should take Izzy fairly readily, so we shouldn't wait too long. Please keep an eye on the relationship of Asoka to Izzy. If Julius takes Izzy out, that will increase his power and research rate as he'll begin to gain more cities.

Can we predict if Asoka will drop from pleased to cautious with Izzy? Is there anything we can do to influence this?

I don't think we should get more than 2 or 3 war allies at once since we don't want the war to be over too quickly. Our actual goal is turns of war rather than vanquishing an enemy.

Getting Julius to delcare on Izzy and having Asoka join in with us would be the ideal situation in my mind. What is our timeline on declaring war...? At the moment we are about 65 turns from Communism (based on around turn 140) and need 40 turns of war. I think we need to get a war going no later than 10 turns time.

I'll go with National Epic after forge.
May gift Alphabet to HC and Toku.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I don't think we should get more than 2 or 3 war allies at once since we don't want the war to be over too quickly. Our actual goal is turns of war rather than vanquishing an enemy.
Getting Julius to delcare on Izzy and having Asoka join in with us would be the ideal situation in my mind. What is our timeline on declaring war...? At the moment we are about 65 turns from Communism (based on around turn 140) and need 40 turns of war. I think we need to get a war going no later than 10 turns time. Sounds right to me.

I'll go with National Epic after forge.

May gift Alphabet to HC and Toku.

JT, have you considered this post by SCT: "There is some potential benefit from gifting techs to AI. Gifting techs improves the bonus for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright." Usually 1 tech gift gives one additional point. This diplo category has a max of +4. . . . We're at +5 with Julius right now, so 1 gift should put us over the [monoploly tech] line."

 

[ShannonCT]

"I expect that Monarchy will be available soon, so I'd suggest we wait for a time when we can change to HR and OR in 1 turn." I'm good with that if you're sure it will cost only one turn.

Yes, as of right now, we can get 2 civic changes in 1 turn.

Can we predict if Asoka will drop from pleased to cautious with Izzy? Is there anything we can do to influence this?

I don't know what to make of all of the numbers in Gator's charts. I'm pretty sure Asoka will get more upset with Issy for having a different religion but I have no idea how to predict how long that will take. And I don't think we can wait to find out.

Getting Julius to delcare on Izzy and having Asoka join in with us would be the ideal situation in my mind. What is our timeline on declaring war...? At the moment we are about 65 turns from Communism (based on around turn 140) and need 40 turns of war. I think we need to get a war going no later than 10 turns time.

Agreed. Hopefully we can wait long enough to trade MC for Monarchy, Calendar, etc. Once we give MC to Caesar, he'll trade it with anyone he's above +5 with.

May gift Alphabet to HC and Toku.

Maybe Washington too...

 

[leif erikson]

I don't think we should get more than 2 or 3 war allies at once since we don't want the war to be over too quickly. Our actual goal is turns of war rather than vanquishing an enemy.

I agree and understand. I think I am trying to add that we should be careful what we do. By calling on Julius to attack Izzie, he will most likely take her capital, her only city as far as I can tell. This will increase the power, research and production of Julius. That is good if we think we want him to be our PA. It may not be so good if we want Asoka to be our PA.

I guess I'm asking how can we manage this to our benefit?

I am also thinking it would be nice to get Washington into a scrap with Lizzie and then buying whoever we want to be our PA into that one. In this one, I think we need to take Nottingham so that one of our potential PA partners doesn't get it and then we have to live without Iron.

Getting Julius to delcare on Izzy and having Asoka join in with us would be the ideal situation in my mind. What is our timeline on declaring war...? At the moment we are about 65 turns from Communism (based on around turn 140) and need 40 turns of war. I think we need to get a war going no later than 10 turns time.

I agree that we need to get started on this fairly soon. It would be nice to have some Cho-Ko-Nu's, just in case.

I'll go with National Epic after forge.
May gift Alphabet to HC and Toku.

Maybe Washington too...

HC has Alphabet from what I can see. I think getting Washington on board is necessary for the future campaign versus Lizzie.

"I expect that Monarchy will be available soon, so I'd suggest we wait for a time when we can change to HR and OR in 1 turn." I'm good with that if you're sure it will cost only one turn.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me too. The only other consideration may be going to war. Slavery saved my bacon a couple of times when the AI got lucky when attacking Beijing. If we can keep on top of who declares where, this isn't going to be a big problem. If Washington gets upset because we screw up his plans with New York's expansion, could it get ugly quickly...

 

[DJMGator13]

There is some potential benefit from gifting techs to AI. Gifting techs improves the bonus for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright." Usually 1 tech gift gives one additional point. This diplo category has a max of +4.

There's another category "you've shared your technological discoveries with us" that takes 10-20 tech trades to get just +1 diplo. We won't be getting this bonus with anyone for a while.

Julius, Capac, and Toku are the best candidates for gifting techs to. Those three AI will be willing to trade us monopoly techs if our relations are above +5. We're at +5 with Julius right now, so 1 gift should put us over the line. We could also just wait for another diplo point for shared religion, of which we can get get 1 more point max with Julius. If we see Julius with a monopoly tech soon, we can gift him Lit and that should open him to trading.

Our other three friends (Asoka, Fred, and Washington) won't trade monopoly techs until we go over +10.

If any of the AI ask us for a tech gift, we'll get +1 for "you gave us help" as well as the bonus for "fair trade relations". We can't afford to refuse tech requests from our friends.

Thanks for answering CP's question better than I did. I was rushing out the door and only hit the tech trading side.

As you mentioned the "our trade relations have been fair and forthright" has a max of +4, I verified in one of my prior save games. The strange thing here is that the xml worksheets is reporting the bonus trade max at only +2 so either the worksheet is wrong or there is another component to the "fair & forthright".

I don't know what to make of all of the numbers in Gator's charts.

I'm trying to keep track of when the next occurance for each Contact Type can take place. By tracking this for each AI we should be able to limit the options down to 2 or 3 at the most. Combined with the AI's preference for contact which is shown in the legend section (lower the number better chance of occuring) we should know the order of the 2 or 3 options.

For example, Elizabeth's preference for contact is Tech trade (2), Stop trading (50) & Ask for help (50). We refused a tech trade on turn 75 with her anddue to the contact delay she can not ask us for another tech trade until turn 105. Same with Ask for Help, we refused it on turn 69 so she can't ask again until turn 119. So if she contacts us prior to turn 105 she is more than likely going to ask us to Stop trading with someone. After turn 105 Tech trading become her first choice again. Now this is in a world without warfare.
If she is at war with someone other than us she is more likely to ask us to join her in the war than to stop trading prior to turn 105. That is why in the worksheet I have the prediction for Elizabeth shown as: tech trade @ T105 > stop trade = Ask for help @ T119. [Note: I accidentally had "Ask for help" shown as "Give help".] Prior to turn 105 the prediction should be: Stop trading > demand tribute, because these are the only 2 options left. We're below the Give Help threshold so she won't do that.

The prediction area may turn out to be a bust. I've never tracked it before in a game and not really sure what the ultimate value will be. Basically we know we want to accept the demands of our friends and not really worry about saying no to the demands of everyone else. Also please feel free to suggest or even make changes to the spreadsheet. I just kinda of threw the format together quickly. At one point I considered having each civ on a different sheet, which might make it a little less confusing but more difficult to compare.

 

[leif erikson]

The prediction area may turn out to be a bust. I've never tracked it before in a game and not really sure what the ultimate value will be. Basically we know we want to accept the demands of our friends and not really worry about saying no to the demands of everyone else.

It will be interesting to see how it all works out.
The AI seems to know when to demand a new tech...

Congratulations to Shannon for his efforts in the Hall of Fame, gaining the highest score of the update!!

 

[ShannonCT]

Thanks Leif. Not sure how that happened.

It looks like JT's weekend is over. Are you handing this one off JT, or do you still intend to play more turns?

 

[Cactus Pete]

I have little time for the next 24 hours, so I hope JT continues.

I plan to hook up the iron so one of our metals can be traded. Comments?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Yes, I did play some more turns last night. I'll upload the save shortly and post a log.

It was pretty uneventful, with us building the forge and National Epic and trading away CoL and Literature. We got Monarchy, Currency, Calendar and Construction. We have revolted to OR and HR.

The perfect war declaration did not present itself (Asoka is still Pleased with Izzy at a 0 relationship).

HC founded Taoism and converted.

Fred will declare on HC for a price and Julius will declare on Izzy for a price. Before we proceed, I think we need to decide who we want to attack and then for us to do it at the start of the next turn set.

Also, Elizabeth's city on the western ice went into revolt but did not flip. If it flips it will be autorazed, would this put us at war with Liz automatically?

LOG ADDED:

T77 Gift Alphabet to Washington, Gift Monotheism to HC
IBT zzz
T78 Gift Monotheism to Fred
IBT zzz
T79 zzz
IBT Plato born in London, Liz builds fishing boats on clam, our borders pop (what timing!)
T80 Trade Asoka CoL and Lit for Monarchy, Trade HC CoL and Lit for Calendar +40GP, Forge built -> start NatEpic
IBT Aristotle born far away
T81 Trade Washington CoL and Lit for Currency +70GP
IBT Homer born far away, Ptomely gorn in Tiwanuku
T82 zzz
IBT HC adopts Taoism, Nottingham in cultural revolt
T83 zzz
IBT Kublai offers trade: Horseback Riding for Calendar +70GP, I decline, Zu Chongzhi bron far away
T85 Trade Fred Monarchy and Lit for Construction +cash
IBT Moses born far away
T86 NatEpic built,

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I hope I'm not guilty of playing too many turns without specific group consent...

My first real concern was that I (we) haven't declared war yet.

And I'm not 100% sure on what our philosophy is for tech trades? Are we trying to get us much as we can with our techs, or are we more interested in trading freely? I was trying to get as much from our techs as possible, while still having techs up our sleeve for bribing the parties who are most likely to declare war.

 

[DJMGator13]

Also, Elizabeth's city on the western ice went into revolt but did not flip. If it flips it will be autorazed, would this put us at war with Liz automatically?

It should just simply disappear, no popup will even appear informing us that it had tried to join us. Atleast that is what happened in a few of my HOF 40 gauntlet attempts. It did not start a war.

BTW, congratulations to Shannon on his HOF game.