SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

It will also be interesting to see how Fred does with TGLighthouse. If I can find some time, I may try a TGLighthouse run myself.

If all goes well, and we manage the early years well, I think this is doable as well. If we get into an early war, it will slow us down. Think we can restrain ourselves?

I started a game yesterday but in this game Louis declared early and sent a large stack of axes. I wonder what is the best way to prevent this. No matter what we do we will always have less power than everyone else. In my first couple of games I got away with this but it's kind of worrying if we are too dependent on RNG luck. He declared after I got Alpha so in hindsight I may try to go back and start a war myself and bribe him and other neighbors into joining. I suppose this is the best way to avoid being the target of a random DOW. I doubt that building an extra axe or two will make any difference since we will be last in power anyway. Any opinions on this?

An early DOW is clearly a game breaker. At best you can defend the capital but all improvements will be pillaged and that will set you back considerably.

EDIT: Leif, if you want to try the TGLH I suggest the following tech path from the save: Hunting (improve fur) - Masonry (improve marble) - Sailing (whip lighthouse and start TGLH) then beeline Alpha. It's important to get opens borders ASAP and send the warrior scouting in order to get trade routes. I chop the river grassland forest and one more grassland forest to get TGLH faster. River grassland should be cottaged first. After Alpha either Drama for Theater and Globe or Litterature for GLib (don't know which order is the best). Chop only grassland forest where we can put cottages. Use the whip to get buildings until the Globe is done then allow growth instead. Wait with hiring scientists until the health cap is reached (Maybe hire a couple to stop growth until Globe is done). Trade crab and stone for health resources and after the Globe also fur.

 

[ShannonCT]

Did you steal and workers early on SCT? And if so did that make things uncomfortable for you? I haven't tried it in this one yet, but it would seem to me that worker stealing is problematical - you rely on lack of open borders to protect you from damage by the AI, but getting the worker back to your own area would suffer from the very same thing until you had writing (but the others didn't). I noticed that the land all gets gobbled up very fast making the first few turns the best ones for exploration!

I didn't steal a worker. Our strategy shouldn't rely on being able to steal workers, but if the opportunity arises, we should consider it.

The more I'm seeing results with the mids (I presume that's the way you played this one SCT?) the more I like it. Get an engineer which at worst can be stashed away for useful pursuits later, then have the mid engineer points effectively speeding up great scientists at the cost of a small chance of popping more engineers than we want.

I'm convinced that an early engineer should be used for Machinery and not saved for building the UN. The likelihood of being able to win right after building the UN seems slim. Better to use it on a big tech that we know will get us a PA faster.

I started a game yesterday but in this game Louis declared early and sent a large stack of axes. I wonder what is the best way to prevent this. No matter what we do we will always have less power than everyone else. In my first couple of games I got away with this but it's kind of worrying if we are too dependent on RNG luck. He declared after I got Alpha so in hindsight I may try to go back and start a war myself and bribe him and other neighbors into joining. I suppose this is the best way to avoid being the target of a random DOW. I doubt that building an extra axe or two will make any difference since we will be last in power anyway. Any opinions on this?

I don't think there is any good way to prevent an early DoW. In some games, I've built no axes and not gotten a DoW, and others I get a DoW after having built several axes. So it does seem random. All we can do is withstand the attack until we can buy off the AI. I find that the early attacks are badly planned. They come in waves so that instead of attacking with all 15 units at once, they attack in waves of 5-6. 4 axes fortified in our city are plenty to withstand this sort of attack, so given that I gave us copper in the test game, you can build 2 axes after Mids/GLH and be ready to whip/chop 2 more if you see an attack coming (it's good to have a lookouot). There's no need to build a barracks for units that will be defending the city. Axes already get a 90% bonus for defending our city (40% culture, 25% hill, 25% fortify). Even archers should be up to the task with their 165% bonus (40% culture, 50% hill, 25% fortify, 50% city). If the real game gives us no copper, we can go for Hunting-Archery after the techs needed for the wonder we build.

An early DOW is clearly a game breaker. At best you can defend the capital but all improvements will be pillaged and that will set you back considerably.

We would probably lose the fur camp and quarry(s). We can't let them pillage a copper mine though. We would want to leave ourselves a clear path for attacking any unit that tries to unhook copper. As long as a DoW doesn't prevent us from getting the Great Library, it won't be a major setback.

After Alpha either Drama for Theater and Globe or Litterature for GLib (don't know which order is the best).

I'd say that we can't risk losing the GLib to someone else. GLib should be built as early as possible. (If you build the Mids, happiness isn't a problem.)

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, here are my results from an attempt at the gauntlet:

Numbers in parentheses are beakers per turn.

Pyramids turn 47
GLib turn 85 (56)
---- turn 100 (64)
Globe Theater turn 106 (91)
---- turn 116 (122)
Oxford turn 137 (252)
Liberalism turn 138
---- turn 150 (315)
Communism and PA turn 166 - 1050AD

Great People:
GE turn 83 (saved for Machinery)
GS turn 93 (Philosophy)
GS turn 103 (Academy)
GA turn 116 (settled)
GS turn 126 (Education)
GE turn 140 (settled)
GA turn 151 (settled)

A bit more about this game:
I was attacked by Louis shortly after getting Alphabet. I had 3 axes by the time he declared, and 2 more by the time he attacked Beijing with 3 swords, 3 axes, and 4 spears . I only lost one axe, and the threat was gone. A few more waves of 3-4 units each were easy to kill out in the open before they could pillage anything. So building 3 axes before being attacked makes you pretty safe. Later, I was DoWed by Washington, but I was able to bribe three other AI to DoW on him, so he barely even entered my borders.

I also was paying attention to how the Great Lighthouse would have compared to the Mids in my game. I was not maxamizing my population, favoring high GP production instead. Since trade route income is higher when your population is higher, I wasn't maximizing trade route income. But what I did notice was that the GLH was did not surpass the beaker bonus from Mids until after Astronomy. (I assume overseas trade routes are worth more.) Right before getting Astro, the GLH would have added 2 trade routes worth 3 or 4 each. With bureacracy, that would come out to a 12 beaker bonus max. Because I usually had at least 4 specialists working, I was usually getting at least 12 beakers per turn from the Mids (later more from settled GPs).

Great Lighthouse requires a big capital to be fully utilized. It is incompatible with great people maximization. So GLH testing should probably focus on commerce and population maximization, alowing all GPPs to come from wonders.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Thanks for the in-depth testing Shannon.

I apologise for not being able to do much testing beyond my first practise game. I've got time to check forums but little time to sit down and play at the moment.

I'm convinced that an early engineer should be used for Machinery and not saved for building the UN. The likelihood of being able to win right after building the UN seems slim. Better to use it on a big tech that we know will get us a PA faster.

I've found the AI will research and trade away Machinery pretty easily... we should have enough tradebait to get Machinery in trades rather than through lightbulbing. (Although I am concious that we don't necessarily want to trade away Paper and Philosophy straight away.)

 

[Frederiksberg]

Still trying to get a test game done but again tonight I was DOW'ed very early - this time by Bismarck. He declared in turn 60 and moved in with a stack of 11 units including 3 swords and 3 axes. No way I could hold the city with only 2 axes and one warrior.

These early DOW's could make this game very random indeed. Of course we can skip building an early wonder and skip the early Library and build axes and archers instead but several teams are bound to get through the first 100 turns without being DOW'ed and if they gamble on buildings they will surely win against a team that plays cautiously.

Does any of you know about the hidden diplomatic modifiers that will make some civs dislike you more? And the aggression level (likelihood of DOW'ing) of various leaders. This could be important knowledge when the real game starts.

Good work with the testing, Shannon!

 

[leif erikson]

I've found the AI will research and trade away Machinery pretty easily... we should have enough tradebait to get Machinery in trades rather than through lightbulbing. (Although I am concious that we don't necessarily want to trade away Paper and Philosophy straight away.)

In my gauntlet test I also bulbed Machinery. At the time, I had completed CS and couldn't trade for Metal Casting. After researching Metal Casting, I needed to go up the Paper to Education trail in order to get to Liberalism and a free tech, so I bulbed Machinery because I couldn't trade for it. If we can trade, and save the Engineer, that would be fine as well. By the time the Engineer appeared, TGLibrary was completed and we also pay maintenance on Great People who are sitting around waiting for whatever.

I've been thinking a bit about this upcoming game and I think it is most likely that Iron will be in the BFC. You can't build Cho-Ko-Nu's with Copper! Unless Gyathaar is feeling pity and gives us both?

EDIT - Almost forgot, @Fred, I think Gator posted earlier that he had the double secret, hidden stuff on AI Attitudes. I thought he said he would try to do a post up on it.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Does any of you know about the hidden diplomatic modifiers that will make some civs dislike you more? And the aggression level (likelihood of DOW'ing) of various leaders. This could be important knowledge when the real game starts.

I don't know how DoW's are calculated, but from reading the forums and playing the game, this is my understanding:

It think the war declarations are quite complicated, with three main factors.
1. Probability of war declaration,
2. A comparison of power between the two civs,
3. The diplomatic relationship between the two civs.

1. There seems to be three different kind of war declarations: MaxWar, LimitedWar and DogpileWar. Each AI has it's own probability of making these declarations.

2. However, before a war declaration it seems the AI has to pass a power ratio check between them and the war target. These ratios are modified by leader personality/aggressive AI setting/distance between the civs borders etc. Peaceful leaders require a significant power advantage before declaring.

3. Then there seems to be the diplomatic modifier. Some civs will have a reduced chance of DoW based on the diplomatic relationship. There are a nmber of Civs that will never declare war if the relationship is at least Pleased.

My observations are based on LeaderAI xml tables I have downloaded (the same ones as Gator put up).

The two attached charts can help show relative aggression, not that I understand them completely. One of the tables comes from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5042215&postcount=78

 

[rrau]

Gator PM'd the files on 4-1-08.

 

[DJMGator13]

Here my little brief guide to go along wth the xml worksheet for Van. I didn't get it finished over the weekend. The indivdual AI stats are in the worksheets but here is a quck rundown of the key tags that we can control and of the "invisible" tags.

Mode = most frequently occuring number, not the average

----------------------------------------

Okay, I’ve toyed around with a few of the AI leader tags already in our thread but here is a quick list of the ones that directly affect the diplo rating. All this information comes directly from the Leader traits xml worksheets that Ori put together.

We have all heard that there are “Invisible” factors that affect our diplo rating. There are five tags that are invisible. They are not displayed yet they do affect the score. You can tell when the invisible tags are coming into play because your rating will not add up properly. The five invisible tags are as follows:

iBaseAttitude – leaders’ initial attitude towards other civs before any other modifications, min of -1, max of 2 and mode of 0.

iWorseRankAttitudeChange – Modifier to the AI's attitude towards Civilizations that have a lower Power Rating, min of -3, max and mode of 0.

iBetterRankAttitudeChange – Modifier to the AI's attitude towards Civilizations that have a higher Power Rating, min of 0, max of 4 and mode of 0.

iLostWarAttitudeChange – attitude adjustor for every war where AI is decided to be more successful than opponent, set at -1 for all leader.

iWarmongerRespect – attitude adjustor for warmongering AI’s with each other [only between AI’s – not us], min of 0, max of 2 and mode of 2.

Other than improving our Power Rating there is nothing we can do to change any of the invisible tags. The rest of the tags are visible and we can influence them more directly. They consist of:

iCloseBordersAttitudeChange - Along with stolen city radius plot count determines the attitude adjustor for close borders, min of -4, max and mode of -2.

iAtPeaceAttitudeChangeLimit - Determines to what maximum extent AI attitude will increase when at peace, set at 1 for all leaders.

iSameReligionAttitudeChange – Modifier to Attitude towards Civs that have the same State Religion, set at 1 for all leaders.

iSameReligionAttitudeChangeLimit - The maximum or minimum change that can result from <iSameReligionAttitudeDivisor> , min of 2, max of 7 and mode of 4.

iDifferentReligionAttitudeChange - Modifier to Attitude towards Civs that have a different State Religion, min of -2, max f 0 and mode of -1

iDifferentReligionAttitudeChangeLimit - Maximum or minimum change that can result from <iDifferentReligionAttitudeDivisor>, set to -1 for all leaders

iBonusTradeAttitudeChangeLimit - Maximum or minimum change that can result from <iBonusTradeAttitudeDivisor>, set to 2 for all leaders

iOpenBordersAttitudeChangeLimit - Maximum or minimum change that can result from <iOpenBordersAttitudeDivisor>, set to 2 for all leaders

iDefensivePactAttitudeChangeLimit - Maximum or minimum change that can result from <iDefensivePactAttitudeDivisor> , set to 2 for all leaders

iShareWarAttitudeChange - Modifier to attitude towards Civilizations that the AI shares a war with, set to 1 for all leaders

iShareWarAttitudeChangeLimit - Maximum or minimum change that can result from <iShareWarAttitudeDivisor>, min of 2, max of 4 and mode of 3

iFavoriteCivicAttitudeChange - Modifier to attitude towards Civilizations that have chosen the AI's favorite civic type, as set in <FavoriteCivic>, set to 1 for all leaders

iFavoriteCivicAttitudeChangeLimit - Maximum or minimum change that can result from <iFavoriteCivicAttitudeDivisor> , min of 1, max of 6 and mode of 2

Note: anywhere you see a divisor listed it is usually 10 turns and means that to achieve the maximum bonus you need to go share this feature for that long or longer. Think of it as your diplo points doubling like an “aged” temple doubles its culture.

 

[DJMGator13]

Forgot this group of tags. Divide the number by 100 to see the effect on your diplo rating. The 3 numbers following the tag are in this order: min, max then mode.

MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR -300 -300 -300
MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR_ON_FRIEND -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_HIRED_WAR_ALLY -100 -100 -100
MEMORY_NUKED_US -200 -200 -200
MEMORY_NUKED_FRIEND -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_RAZED_CITY -250 -250 -250
MEMORY_RAZED_HOLY_CITY -200 -200 -200
MEMORY_SPY_CAUGHT -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_GIVE_HELP 100 100 100
MEMORY_REFUSED_HELP -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_ACCEPT_DEMAND 100 100 100
MEMORY_REJECTED_DEMAND -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_ACCEPTED_RELIGION 100 100 100
MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_ACCEPTED_CIVIC 100 100 100
MEMORY_DENIED_CIVIC -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_DENIED_JOIN_WAR -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_ACCEPTED_STOP_TRADING 50 50 50
MEMORY_DENIED_STOP_TRADING -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_STOPPED_TRADING -100 -100 -100
MEMORY_HIRED_TRADE_EMBARGO -100 -100 -100
MEMORY_MADE_DEMAND -200 -100 -100
MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US 5 20 10


So you would need to trade on average 10 techs to an AI before you gain 1 point in your diplo rating for tech trading. Accepting a civic change will earn you 1 point, more if it is to their favorite civic. And yes those are negative signs and those will reduce your rating.

There is also a section on memory fade, which relates to how long the +- effect lasts, so you need to be constantly trading.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Gator. Now my head is really spinning!!

Got a chance to play TGLighthouse scenario. I found it to be a bit faster, which surprised me. I got the same number of Great People and had four Great Scientists, a Great Artist and a Great Merchant. With the Pyramids, I got the same except for an Engineer in place of the Merchant (although the Engineer was first and the Merchant was last).

Let's see if I can get the dates listed. (I'll go from Alphabet on as early in the game, the tech path was different)
Pyramids / Tech / Great Lighthouse
Turn 82 / Literature / Turn 76
Turn 91 / Drama / Turn 85
Turn 99 / Code of Laws / Turn 94
Turn 116 / Civil Service / Turn 111
Turn 121 / Metal Casting / Turn 115
Turn 121 (bulb)/ Machinery / Turn 124
Turn 127 / Paper / Turn 130
Turn 133 (bulb)/ Education / Turn 136 (bulb)
Turn 144 / Liberalism / Turn 148
Astronomy free
Turn 148 (bulb) / Printing Press / Turn 152 (bulb)
Turn 166 / Scientific Method / Turn 164
Turn 180 / Communism / Turn 176

In both games, I was way ahead of the AI through Communism in tech. I traded a lot to fill in.

As for research rates, I recorded the following (in the Great Lighthouse test game):
Turn 60 = 29 beakers per turn
Turn 98 = 68 beakers per turn
Turn 136 = 131 beaker per turn
Turn 162 = 264 beakers per turn

I hope this is clear enough to understand?

EDIT - There was more war in the Lighthouse game, but nothing that was continuous enough for a PA right away. The target in this game would be either Incans or Americans. It is fun to take a city down to one unit and watch your partner claim it!!

 

[ShannonCT]

Thanks for the research JT and Gator. It seems like the upshot of all this is that we can't really prevent an early DoW. We can only predict its likelihood and prepare accordingly. If we have aggressive neighbors, we should expect an attack around turn 60-65. This shouldn't be a big problem though. Even if we build the GLH or Mids, we'll still have 15-20 turns to prepare for an attack, whether that means building axemen or archers. I've successfully repelled attacks in several test games.

Thanks for the testing Leif. I have been finding similar results. GLH/cottage spam gives a Communism date comparable to Mids/Great People spam. The bigger factors that affect the Communism date are 1) whether an early DoW happens, 2) whether a desirable relgion spreads to Beijing for Pacifsm to work, and 3) which great people the RNG gives us. Number 1, we can't do much about. Number 2, we can encourage by having open borders with everyone. Number 3, we have the most influence over. Getting Great Scientists is highly desirable. The first GS can be used for Pacifism to speed up all the subsequent GSs. But building the Mids or GLH makes a GE or GM more likely (at least 80%). GE can be used for MC or Machinery. GM can be used for CoL, MC, or Paper. So they still have some use. Great Artists are much less desirable. They don't help us down the Communism beeline, except to bulb something for tradebait (Music?).

Globe Theater and National Epic are sources of GA points. Building National Epic still increases the chances of more useful GPs simply by producing more GPs. Globe Theater decreases the chances of getting useful GPs, and should therefore be delayed until it is really needed. If we build Mids, the +2 happiness from Representation will be good enough for a while. If we build GLH, we can rely on Hereditary Rule for an unlimited amount of happiness (for a price). Additionally, happiness resources should be available for trade after the AIs get Calendar.

One final test I'll do before the game starts is building neither Mids nor GLH so as to guarantee that the first GP is a GS.

Leif, do you have a roster in mind?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Shannon, can I get the 1050AD PA save from you please? It would be fun to see what date we can launch a spaceship from that save position.

My idea would be to beeline Computers with us and our PA partner researching the same techs. We would trade techs freely to as many AI's as we can to fill in the top half of the tech tree.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds like matters are in good hands. I'm headed out of town and out of touch until Tuesday. Should be able to participate then.

Good luck.

 

[DJMGator13]

Gator PM'd the files on 4-1-08.

Here is the link to them in the download section.

The warlords versions has the easiest to read description of the tags, but some of the values do change between the versions. There are also many other tags listed that affect the AI behavior and not our diplo rating. I did not include those in my post. I concentrated on the diplo rating ones.

Leif, do you have a roster in mind?

Put me last. I'm not sure if I'll have enough time to actually play turns. I have returned to work from my surgery finally (after almost 4 months) but I'm pretty much whipped by the end of the day.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks for the research JT and Gator. It seems like the upshot of all this is that we can't really prevent an early DoW. We can only predict its likelihood and prepare accordingly. If we have aggressive neighbors, we should expect an attack around turn 60-65. This shouldn't be a big problem though. Even if we build the GLH or Mids, we'll still have 15-20 turns to prepare for an attack, whether that means building axemen or archers. I've successfully repelled attacks in several test games.

I hope we can use the diplo data to predict behavior as much as possible. And hoping that our neighbors are not Montie and Toku!

This does bring up something we haven't really discussed much and that is how we keep track of what we've done and who we've done it with. I think we will all need to record all of our diplo actions in detail in our logs. And if we come to a place where we are unsure of how to handle a diplo situation, stop and discuss it. Of course, we are most likely going to be surprised by a demand or by a declaration of war. Should two civs go to war, I think we should probably stop and discuss whether to enter into war with one or the other. I found that we usually get at least a turn before we are summoned and asked to join.

One of the things I tried, and it seemed to work pretty well, is once we get Writing, I checked the diplo matrix screen and tried to identify who was the most in trouble with the other. In the gauntlet save, it seemed to be Lizzie. I signed Open Borders with everyone but her and I seemed to avoid the "You Traded with Our Worst Enemy" hit.

Thanks for the testing Leif. I have been finding similar results. GLH/cottage spam gives a Communism date comparable to Mids/Great People spam. The bigger factors that affect the Communism date are 1) whether an early DoW happens, 2) whether a desirable relgion spreads to Beijing for Pacifsm to work, and 3) which great people the RNG gives us. Number 1, we can't do much about. Number 2, we can encourage by having open borders with everyone. Number 3, we have the most influence over. Getting Great Scientists is highly desirable. The first GS can be used for Pacifism to speed up all the subsequent GSs. But building the Mids or GLH makes a GE or GM more likely (at least 80%). GE can be used for MC or Machinery. GM can be used for CoL, MC, or Paper. So they still have some use. Great Artists are much less desirable. They don't help us down the Communism beeline, except to bulb something for tradebait (Music?).

I must admit that I missed the two happiness of Representation during the GLighthouse game, as well as the Great Engineer possibility. Have we decided which way to go yet? Any strong feelings one way or the other?

Globe Theater and National Epic are sources of GA points. Building National Epic still increases the chances of more useful GPs simply by producing more GPs. Globe Theater decreases the chances of getting useful GPs, and should therefore be delayed until it is really needed. If we build Mids, the +2 happiness from Representation will be good enough for a while. If we build GLH, we can rely on Hereditary Rule for an unlimited amount of happiness (for a price). Additionally, happiness resources should be available for trade after the AIs get Calendar.

Globe Theater is more important when using The Great Lighthouse option. We will need to see what is available for trade as I would prefer to try and secure health resources where possible.

One final test I'll do before the game starts is building neither Mids nor GLH so as to guarantee that the first GP is a GS.

Good luck, will be interesting to see the results.

Leif, do you have a roster in mind?

I have been thinking about this. I am almost afraid to put rrau and Fred too early as their computer RNG likes to send wars our way.

I was thinking something along the lines of:
rrau
leif
Shannon
Fred
CP
JT
Mistfit
MP
Gator


I am unsure, since we haven't discussed it, if anyone really wishes to lurk only? If someone thinks that is the way the want to go, it doesn't mean we can't change it later, so no concrete pours here.
I've put MP and Gator at the bottom because of their posts concerning their current busy situations.
If folks wish to move around in this order, it is fine by me. Please post or PM your thoughts. I tried to get those who have been play testing up early as they will be most familiar with the game.

 

[Mad Professor]

I was thinking something along the lines of:
rrau
leif
Shannon
Fred
CP
JT
Mistfit
MP
Gator

Low on the list is good for me. I can participate more actively after May 17th. Until then I will endevour to keep up with the discussion by regularly logging on and reading, but my imput will be low level. After May 17th I am MUCH more available I think we're unlikely to go faster than two turnsets a week surely, so this should allow me a higher level of involvement for a little while before my turnset comes around which will be important.

 

[Mistfit]

I have actually signed in as "Official Lurker" I am not comfortable enough with cIV yet to play in this sort of game. I appreciate the offer but I think I will continue to just pop in occasionally with snarky comments..

 

[leif erikson]

I have actually signed in as "Official Lurker" I am not comfortable enough with cIV yet to play in this sort of game. I appreciate the offer but I think I will continue to just pop in occasionally with snarky comments..

Thanks Mistfit. I will not include you in the roster. Please remember that all you have to do is ask and we can slip you into the rotation if you wish.

The save is available HERE.
Please remember that we can look but not touch, no moves allowed.

We are still doing some discussing of roster by PM. Please let me know if you have preferences or complaints. Thanks.

I hope to have the roster issues settled by this evening. I think we need to decide the following:
-Initial moves, do we look at moving the Warrior to check for other sites for our one city or do we settle in place?
-The Pyramids or The Great Lighthouse?
-Initial builds and techs?
-Keeping track of diplomacy actions?
-What did I miss?

I am assuming that we agree to continue with our process of 24 hours, "Got it", 24 hours "Plan outline and Discussion", 48 to 72 hours "play the turn set"?

Any other questions we need to answer before we plunge in?

 

[ShannonCT]

Opening moves:

Warrior can move SW, but I really can't imagine finding anything that would justify leaving the coast and the river. We're guaranteed +4 to health from settling in place (fresh water and crabs). Any health resource the warrior could reveal we can capture with a second border expansion.

With no food resources visible on land, worker first doesn't do much good. Best sequence I've found is warrior -> workboat -> worker (MMed so that Pop2 and workboat come on same turn) and I think we are all happy with Fishing -> BW as first 2 techs. We don't need to commit to any early wonder until after researching BW, so that would be a good place to stop and discuss.

There shouldn't be any diplo requests/demands in the first turn set. Our warrior just needs to meet as many people as possible. If there is an opportunity to worker steal, first player can save and come back here for discussion.

As for reporting diplomatic happenings and actions in the turn reports, shall we use the color to match our future medal? (That's gold, not bronze.)