SGOTM 08 - Chokonuts

[AlanH]

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 8 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This will be the first Beyond the Sword SGOTM. Thanks, Gyathaar

Following his recent honeymoon in the Far East, Gyathaar, aka Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire, is just Crazy About Wonders. He has decreed that he will win a glorious victory and that his total Wonder points per turn played will then be the envy of the world.

Suryavarman II is Expansive and Creative, with the Ballista Elephant to assist in acquiring Wonders he can't build himself, and the Baray to allow him to build the Hanging Gardens.

It is a Normal speed, Monarch difficulty game on a Standard map. All victory conditions are enabled.

The Objective
The winners will be the teams who achieve a Victory by any means, and who score the highest Wonder Points per Turn Played.

Five Wonder Points are awarded for each Wonder controlled by the Team, and are displayed as the 'xx' in "yy from Wonders (xx/310)" when you hover your mouse over your score in the game screen. 310 is the maximum Wonder Points score you can achieve if you control all Wonders and National Wonders.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.17, using HoF Mod 3.17.001.

If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.17 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

As there is no Mac version of BtS, Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows version on their system.

Schedule

• The Team threads will open shortly.
• The start files will be published on Friday, September 12.
• Please try to complete the game within three months of the start date.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

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Map Parameters

• Playable Leader/Civ - Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire.
• Characteristics - Expansive and Creative, starts with Hunting and Mining
• Unique Unit - Ballista Elephant (War elephant)
• Unique Building - Baray (Aqueduct)
• Rivals - 7 AI civs
• World size - Standard
• Difficulty - Monarch
• Landform - Big and Small
• Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
• Game Speed - Normal
• Everything else - Default

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the highest Wonder Score per Turn Played, and the Wooden Spoons for the finishing team with the lowest final score.
  
• You can capture wonders, or build them yourself. Remember you cannot capture national wonders.
  A victory in turn 100 with 10 wonders controlled gets the same score as winning in turn 200 with 20 wonders..
  In BtS the max number of wonders is 62, including corp headquarters and holy city buildings, national wonders, palace and world wonders.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
  
• Do NOT view any other team threads until you have submitted your last save - win, lose or retire.
  
• Do NOT download any other team's save.

Enjoy your game, and please be nice to each other

 

[Ozbenno]

Signing in!

First, welcome to mc-red our new member!

Second, what are our tactics on this one? I can think of two broad tactics to follow, try and build as many wonders as possible or try and win as quickly as possible. My gut feeling is that the second is the better way to go but given my track record on the last two SGOTMs, that may not be too reliable.

I would say in any case there are wonders that we have to prioritize and probably a city set to building wonders. Pyramids (GE points), Oracle (free wonder enabling tech), Great Library and Hanging Gardens (GE points) seem crucial as does early Metal Casing (from Oracle?).

Capturing as many wonders as possible in the turns before we win seems a must in any case, our scouting needs to be good to identify where they are (we should put signs down on the map as well for this).

The start position looks interesting, 4 grassy hills, cows and gold (and looks like a plains hill in the shadow) means plenty of production. The marble of course is great, being creative, we should have it in range quickly (need sailing and Masonry of course).

Sury is a bit of a dud leader so not much help there (but we were never going to get an industrious leader).

Anyhow, post some thoughts and we'll try and get some sort of strategy sorted before we start on Friday.

If I get a chance (which I probably won't) I might try a couple of quick games trying both strategies from the same start and seing which gives the best score.

 

[Ozbenno]

Another quick post...

For the record, the following count for wonders.

1. World Wonders
2. National Wonders
3. Projects (Apollo, Internet etc)
4. Shrines
5. Corporation HQs

All Great People should be saved for shrines, HQs and building wonders I think. Maybe a later finish will be better after all...

 

[cubbiesin08]

Checking in.

My 2 cents for now: Given our track history, I don't think we'll finish too early. If we go for an early finish and miss it, we'll have given up wonders and be worse off. If we recognize that we will probably finish later, we can better maximize our turns and build more wonders.

 

[mc-red]

Hi guys just checking in. Needless to say i am excited about playing this with you all.

 

[Ozbenno]

The more I think on it, the more I think that the winning team will have close to 310 points, so maybe plan on getting as much as possible.

There are 460 turns at normal speed by 2050, I reckon something approaching parity in wonders/turns will be needed.

 

[mc-red]

I am not experienced enough to comment on the best initial strategy. Here are some naive thoughts.
1. Do we have to worrry about access to the coast for the quarry building. I assume the probablility we can reach the marble is high by sailing around. If not we would need another coastal city pretty quickly (is that right?).
2. Ozbenno from your first post it looks like you are impling a settle in place is a no brainer.
3. early wonders with marble are oracle mom, parthenon, temple of artemis, and great library
4. early wonder with gold shwedagon paya
5. how soon do we need priesthood on monarch for oracle? do we just go fishing and then beeline priesthood followed by bw while building a warrior, boat, settler before a worker, then beeline alpha? followed by backfill and aesthetics.
6. guess i will try to play a start to get a feel.

 

[Ozbenno]

1. Do we have to worrry about access to the coast for the quarry building. I assume the probablility we can reach the marble is high by sailing around. If not we would need another coastal city pretty quickly (is that right?).

I think that Sailing, Masonty and a fort on the marble will give us access to it. We need to confirm this before we start. Settling in place gives us access to the ocean, thus access to the marble (again I think)

2. Ozbenno from your first post it looks like you are impling a settle in place is a no brainer.

Whoever goes forst should move the warrior to the hill SW and post a screenshot so we can decide but I think settling in place looks good.

3. early wonders with marble are oracle mom, parthenon, temple of artemis, and great library

I think we should look at which wonders we want to build ourselves and which we will capture from the AI later, Oracle, Parthenon and Great Library are on the self-build list for me (with Pyramids and Hanging Gardens).

4. early wonder with gold shwedagon paya

I wouldn't bother with this one, although the Great Prophet points would be good.

5. how soon do we need priesthood on monarch for oracle? do we just go fishing and then beeline priesthood followed by bw while building a warrior, boat, settler before a worker, then beeline alpha? followed by backfill and aesthetics.

Depends what we want from Oracle. Code of Laws and Metal Casing would be the two I'd aim at. Code of Laws is on the Priesthood line (just need Writing as well) and Metal Casing needs Pottery and Bronze Working.

Tech-wise we need to get Animal Husbandry, Fishing and Bronze Working (in whatever order) and then maybe head for Priesthood and Pottery. Once we have enough neighbours met, we should head for Alphabet.

An alternate plan is to risk a shot at Polytheism (remember we want to found as many religions as wecan for shrines). Not too soldon this though.

Build-wise, I'd go warrior --> worker, then WB if we have Fishing. We will probably want to get a settler out as quick as possible as we are probably going to have the capital on wonder production for a large proportion of the game.

6. guess i will try to play a start to get a feel.

I'll try and do the same over the next few days. If anyone tries a test start, make notes of dates various wonders fell, what you were able to self-build, what religions you were able to found etc.

 

[mc-red]

I think that Sailing, Masonty and a fort on the marble will give us access to it. We need to confirm this before we start. Settling in place gives us access to the ocean, thus access to the marble (again I think)

Yeah the high probability situation is like that. I am not familiar with the big small map possibilities. The only fly in the ointment potentially is a cultural border further up blocking the way (i don't know if that is even possible with these map settings) or this is an isthmus and the way around is very long.
Unlikely but i just wanted to throw it out.

 

[mc-red]

Only reason i mentioned the shwedagon was it is accelerated by gold and we will almost certainlyh be researching poly/aetshtetics.
Also health shouldn't be a problem with expansive, fresh water, two sea food and cows so i guess we will be chopping a lot of the forests. I think they are ten.
So maybe we can use one for the oracle, one for a second worker (i believe the hammers get boosted), maybe four for the pyramids and the rest post maths boosted by a resource like marble and gold.

 

[mc-red]

Oz i just noticed your comment about the fort.
I think that if we have a quarry or fort on the marble with sailing we get access.
I recently played a game with a sugar plantation separated by coast and was able to use it when i had sailing.
I will see if i can find the save and just confirm that.

 

[cubbiesin08]

Definitely check to see if we get the marble in a test game. Not too long ago, I was in a similar situation with iron - I assumed that I would get it with my city on the other island when my culture covered it. It improved the tile and gave me the additional hammers from the mine, but I never got credit for the iron. I don't know if I had a glitch in my game, or if that's the way it always is. Long story, let's double check before we decide for sure.

I definitely agree about moving the warrior, posting screenshot and then deciding...but I would assume that we will settle in place.

 

[cubbiesin08]

Given the game-type, do we want to focus more on Great Engineer points? In other words, besides the obvious Pyramids and Hanging Gardens, do we want to try and grab the Great Wall and Hagia Sophia as well? I'm just not sure since I've never played this style before.

 

[mc-red]

I am attaching a screen shot of the sugar on another land mass which was picked up by my city.
Still I am the least experienced person here so I think we should check an actual marble example to be really sure.

 

[Ozbenno]

OK I WBed a similar example of the marble to see what we need to do to get it connected. Your sugar example mc-red probably gives you acess through OB with the red civ.

I found you had to have the marble quarried and connceted by road to a fort on the second square of the island. You also had to have discovered a sea route to the island if we settled in place. So we need both island squares covered by our cultural borders, Mathematics, Masonry and Sailing and a route to the island (assuming we settle in place). It doesn't appear to be helping us with Oracle, maybe Great Library and Taj Mahal.

As for GE points, yes, I think all wonders with GE points we should try and build (Great Wall now gives Spy points). Also Prophet points for multiple shrines.

If we now assume that we won't have ultra-early Marble, I wouldn't mind chopping an early Stonehenge before Oracle.

I'm thinking we tech Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Fishing and build worker/warrior/settler/WB/wonders. Leave capital on wonder duty and get the early settler out and have our second city produce extra workers/settlers/military etc while the capital concentrates on wonders.

 

[Ozbenno]

BTW, noticed that there are 500 turns in BTS normal speed not 460, if that makes a difference.

Also, I'll PM the tardy lot to get them to sign in.

 

[McArine]

Signing in, will post thoughts later.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Also, I'll PM the tardy lot to get them to sign in.

Signing in.

I agree settle in place.
We should agree on a wish list of early wonders, I agree Oracle, and Great Lib, can understand Pyramids and HE for GE points and also would like to throw in poss GLighthouse and AP. I've played a few games recently on Big Small and have found can meet up with majority of civs a high percentage of the time. The extra trade would really help us get early tech advantage thus make mopping up civs easier in the mid late game. I also prefer to have the hammer boost from AP and would be easier to war against people if we hold the vote majority. We can then build as many later ones as we can and capture the rest.

Which tech from Oracle, its between COL and MC one gives religion and economy boost from chouses and the other production and another happy face from Forges. I suppose we shall decide after a turnset or two.

Khmer aren't first choice of civs, a Baray is ok for the food boost but we need to ensure we build them earlier than would normally build aquaduct to get max benefit. I have never had access to Ivory whenever I have been Khmer so have no experience of Ballista Elephants. I have an evil feeling that we may have access to them here but no metal.

 

[Ozbenno]

AP is actually one wonder I would very much like to build.

I have a horrible feeling you are right on Ballista Elephants (which I've never used but seem fairly poor).

I lean towards Metal Casing from Oracle as extra production, extra happy, GE points and a wonder (Collosus) seem better than the religion (we should be able to self research CoL and still found Confusedness).

 

[McArine]

As I see the discussion right now, we're leaning towards a "build as many wonders ourselves while taking the opponents too" strategi.

I don't think that is such a great Idea. I agree that there are a couple of wonders that'd be nice to build ourselves, but I think a fast conquest victory is a better way of heading.
Drop all wonders, build military and research instead, and just take on the world.