SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[greatbeyond]

More testing results to digest. Mesix seems to have tilted toward Blubs original research position and Blub toward Mesix' original position.

It looks like the difference is what the AI will trade for. I'll continue to digest the most recent discussion. I'll also double check the Worker actions and city builds.

 

[BLubmuz]

Wow Mesix, finally some good ideas from you. Great job.
I was in fact thinking to post that if we want win the Economics race, the only safe way to do this is start with the path to it right after Nationalism.

But i disagree about the usefulness to start an overseas war. The only thing Stalin can give us is silk, and we can have it peacefully by trade.
I don't think that having the horses near that barb city will add much to our military power.

Instead, all Hammu's cities are great, or at least, Nippur and Babylon. Pity that Babylon can't be great if we let to Hammu the 3 almost crappy cities around it.

Your idea to start the war with only 6 Paras deserves a test.
Another risk in dealying the Portuguese war is find Joao with Rifling.
Now, i must see if starting a Babylonian war with only 6 paras will take to long.
Remember? He's got the SoZ.

A quick GAge can be triggered immediately by a GSpy if we want it. Then we can build the Taj in NYC, not polluting LP more than is already.
Fact is i think, but i can be wrong, that a GAge at this stage, with so many unimproved land is sub optimal.

A good way to keep Shaka at bay is to have a good Navy. Usually he arrives very late to Astro and by then ve can have destroyers and battleships. Just 8-12 of them are more than enough to sink all his fleet. Keep a pair in the Pacific (just to avoid surprises), a pair in Greenland, the others to cover all the East Coast. Done, he never dare to DoW, Just in case the max he can do is unload 1-2 galleons. Another GG will give us 3 more beakers.

No, definitely i'm against an overseas war.

Let me resume the choices:
1) Path to Economics straight (we'll surely win), Astro, Bio, Democracy
2) Astro, Democracy, Bio, Economics managing to trade for some of the techs in the path, lost the race
3) Astro, Bio, Democracy, Economics (see above)

Since we're busy building troops and LP is our best city, i can't see how we can benefit from Grocers and banks. The Soon we'll take the cities, the soon those start to be productive for us.
I agree also on the necessity to build Versailles and the FP, but reversed: FP right after we start the war in Sparta (it's the perfect location, i tested the "distance from Palace" accurately, be assured) then research DR in 1 turn at the right time and build Versailles in 8 turns in Babylon.

Unless we want move the Palace in Blubz. We can still have huge benefits from OU in LP having high revenue from the TRs and the GS settled, and having a more centered Capital can help. This can spare us the need to research an otherwise useless tech and the need to build an expensive WW.
In this case, the FP can go in Leiria; it has good enough production to build an almost cheap NW.
Why Blubz for Capital? It's not a joke, i'm serious. Look at the hammers that city has and compare with LP. Even commerce is not bad with a windmill and all those FPs. A couple cottages can help further. Only Nippur with his Levee can compete.
This is a SS i took on turn 168, in full GAge.

To you the answers.

 

[BLubmuz]

More testing results to digest. Mesix seems to have tilted toward Blubs original research position and Blub toward Mesix' original position.

It looks like the difference is what the AI will trade for. I'll continue to digest the most recent discussion. I'll also double check the Worker actions and city builds.

Yeah, it seems we're playing the role of the eternal rivals.
If i find Mesix ideas are good, he suddenly posts new ideas, similar to my original ones.
Fact is, there's not a recipe for this stage of the game. Most depends on luck in the form of AI research, trades, Gpersons popped.
Some path can be good as others apparently different. We "just" need to figure our priorities and act accordingly.

But if you like to contribute to the discussion, you're welcome apparently the discussion is between me and Mesix. Not a word from you, less from Uncle. Sweeta is away for the long weekend and Simon is in vacation. 3 is almost a team, 2... sometime we seem 2 old ladies always griping each other.

Anyway, now i'll continue to run my last test (the one where i ignored the Economics race) and see when i can lauch. In the end this is the only important thing.
I'm convinced that the game where i managed to launch on turn 192 is still the benchmark, impossible to improve. My luck on that game was simply indecent.

 

[greatbeyond]

Changes in city MM, see what you think.

Athens - from wooded plains to the grassland. Cuts our next pop from 8T to 4T. Increases Para from 5t to 6T. It will more than pay for itself.

LP - I am tempted to assign to Scientists to two NP to get growth in 2T instead of 4T. It doesn't delay Nationalism or the Para. In fact it gives us more hammer overflow for the next Para.

Blubzville - Switch from the GE to work the Winery tile when completed. We will probably never get a GPerson there so the only bonus at this point is the 2H and 3B, which will be compensated for by the Winery.

NY - Next turn put a citizen to work on one of the FPlains tiles. I know this isn't popular, but chop the tile 1N of NY and build a Farm. NY can be a powerhouse but it must grow. It will be awhile before we can improve the fish safely.

Pindus - immediately change from the FGL to the Winery. We're wasting 1H and 3G. When we grow next turn, add a FPlains, until we can build a farm on a GL tile.

Corinth - Change from a GM to working a FPlains. Lets get our Forge built.

Sparta - Change to working the Iron, Fire one GM and work the Lake tile 3F2G, work the WGLH instead of the WGL (gives this tile to PC). Fire another GM and work the other Lake tile. We're probably not going to get a GP out of Sparta so, no great loss. As more Pop comes online, we can add them back. This speeds up the CH and speeds growth.

PC - Switch from lake tile to WGL, speeds up CH and whatever comes after.

 

[Simon_c]

It looks like my data card works from the holiday cottage, so I'm good to comment
EDIT: Only on GPRS speed, so keep those pics in spoiler tags please.
Not sure if I'll have time/attention to play, but we'll see later in the week if I need to ask for a skip/swap.

I like the idea of a European war, but Bulbz is probably right, it will be a distraction.
What does our EPs say about Joao getting rifling ? If that's on the horizon we need to cripple him if not, the the war on Hamu first.

How long are the GAs on quick ? 8 turns ? 12 with the Mausoleum ? so 3 GAs will put nearly 40 turns in GA, I guess we want the first one as soon as Joao's core cities are out of revolt.

I vote for pindus building troops for the war until it's done. I know it delays NE/NP but we want the war over quicker to bring the other cities on line quicker. So, because of that, I vote for not heading for Bio straight away. Do Astro now, and *if* we can get guilds/banking, then maybe head eco, otherwise head for Bio (for the extra food as much as anything else)

Keep the boarders open with Joao, but keep an eye on his troops. We don't want them teleported into areas where we have no para coverage.

 

[Mesix]

Joao has already built his shrine. Both Blubz and my tests shows that he can get rifling. Perhaps we should consider taking Joao first and saving Hammy for later. That will give Hammy time to pop a GP to build the Jewish shrine. Having 2 shrines will really help our economy and Joao seems to be teching faster.

 

[Mesix]

As for Europe...how bout a halfway? We can jump the two paratroopers to Greenaland as planned. A bit later we can jump four paras to Europe to take the 2 barbarian cities and form a colony/vassal. The riflemen that the colony starts with should be adequate defense in case Stalin starts something. After we secure our continent, we can play war over there and "liberate" cities to our colony giving our veteran paratroopers something to do after we take the Americas. It should only take 25-30 turns to take out Joao and Hammy and Stalin will likely still be backwards technology at that time.

 

[BLubmuz]

Changes in city MM, see what you think.

Athens - from wooded plains to the grassland. Cuts our next pop from 8T to 4T. Increases Para from 5t to 6T. It will more than pay for itself.
Agreed
LP - I am tempted to assign to Scientists to two NP to get growth in 2T instead of 4T. It doesn't delay Nationalism or the Para. In fact it gives us more hammer overflow for the next Para.
It's what i said in my #709

Blubzville - Switch from the GE to work the Winery tile when completed. We will probably never get a GPerson there so the only bonus at this point is the 2H and 3B, which will be compensated for by the Winery.
Sure, but until then work a forest.
NY - Next turn put a citizen to work on one of the FPlains tiles. I know this isn't popular, but chop the tile 1N of NY and build a Farm. NY can be a powerhouse but it must grow. It will be awhile before we can improve the fish safely.
It can grow with the net, after the frigate. We can build a couple of lumbermills instead of FPs. But on the plains forests, not along the river

Pindus - immediately change from the FGL to the Winery. We're wasting 1H and 3G. When we grow next turn, add a FPlains, until we can build a farm on a GL tile.
The winery is for NYC. Pindus is planty of decent tiles to work the winery south is just completed. Remember to road it. Not immediately. Move the worker now on the FP on the hill: Windmill/road/road winery. In my 709 i deatail the workers actions for the very first turn and the queues for the cities.
Corinth - Change from a GM to working a FPlains. Lets get our Forge built.
OK
Sparta - Change to working the Iron, Fire one GM and work the Lake tile 3F2G, work the WGLH instead of the WGL (gives this tile to PC). Fire another GM and work the other Lake tile. We're probably not going to get a GP out of Sparta so, no great loss. As more Pop comes online, we can add them back. This speeds up the CH and speeds growth.
See my 709, seems we're telling the same.
PC - Switch from lake tile to WGL, speeds up CH and whatever comes after Forge, forge so we can soon have the Eng from it the overall build turns will be greatly shortened.

This seem to be OK, but we're still testing the best variant for the techs.
The question is: do we need that fu...ng GM from Economics?
- If so, let's easily win the race by starting guilds right after Nationalism
- If not, Astro is the best bet. It largerly improves our tech and cash. Try a test: you'll see you can add a 10% on research with a better cash flow. Or whatever is it in this damn game.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mesix, the problem on start with Joao is that he already has a strong army and a large territory. You must add to this that he has 2 great cities: Lisbona and the city south of it. This means the last to fall.
Then a long way to Hammu.

His ridiculous army (and in all my tests he did this, so he's probably already planning it) will in some way help our "righteous crusade" (remember something?) against Babylon.

Also, my idea on taking Braga from the Barbs before start the war seems... brilliant.
Seriously, a great speed in the war effort. While moving from North, we can airlift the new troops there, take the city west, then attack Lisbona from east and west.

In my attempt, i was even lucky enough to intercept a decent stack of mixed units which suicided against 4 fortified paras. Promoted them, brought a fresh one, take the city next in 2 turns. A damn Cat, otherwise...

Greatbeyond please use the "green cursor" on the stone, when the airship is free.

 

[BLubmuz]

As for Europe...how bout a halfway? We can jump the two paratroopers to Greenaland as planned. A bit later we can jump four paras to Europe to take the 2 barbarian cities and form a colony/vassal. The riflemen that the colony starts with should be adequate defense in case Stalin starts something. After we secure our continent, we can play war over there and "liberate" cities to our colony giving our veteran paratroopers something to do after we take the Americas. It should only take 25-30 turns to take out Joao and Hammy and Stalin will likely still be backwards technology at that time.

We can try this after we'll have all the continent. We can't afford to distract even one para from the main war.

Take the 2 barbies (eh ehe) then we'll see. What is sure is that tovarich Stalin will be backwards until we'll launch. But he and Shaka are best buddies, and you know Shaka. You must add that he's our best partner for resources...

 

[greatbeyond]

I can't do any testing until Sunday morning (about 12 hrs from now) but I don't need to if we get a consensus on what to research.

I'll finish Nationalism (2T). Then I'll check for trades for Guilds and or Banking. If not available I'll start Guilds and check each turn for trades. I will not trade with HC if at all possible. He has tremendous territory and is our only threat to win by space and/or culture.

We're only talking 6 turns so It will pass quickly.

Builds: I'll double check the posts and make the appropriate decisions. If it's not specified I'll do what I feel is best. I'll emphasize Paras where they can be built quickly and infrastructure for our developing cities.

I'm assuming I won't get any war making done other than Kassite. The Worker in Kassite will retreat to the city as soon as we attack and will have to be taken with the city.

I know the theory behind not promoting, but the only promo I feel is beneficial to a Para as an offensive unit is the +10% strength for the first promo. If they were defending it would be a different matter.

 

[Mesix]

You hold off the promotions in case the AI attacks your stack or softens it up with catipults/airships. You can then immediately recover some hp via the promotion before you attack.

 

[BLubmuz]

GB, the worker can't retreat. He will stay there and you will capture it.
You don't need to promote a para to attack a LB. Mainly if barb. On monarch we have still a bonus against them. You don't need to promote them even if injured.
Of course the first promo we'll give them is C1, followed by medic1 for 2 of them and by C2 for the rest. Only after that we'll give them pinch or C3. I'm in favor of pinch, more for future use than for the actual use on Babylon or Portugal.

The reason to wait until the last possible moment for promos are the ones Mesix stated: they will be damaged by airships. The AI has at least 6 Airships, and will use them for that.
This is the math: 24 strenght, will be reduced by an airship between 19.2 and 21.6. When you give them C1, they will raise 19.2 to 21.5 + 10% or 21.6 to 22.7 +10%. Then they fight and recover more with C2 (or medic in case of the 2 units who need this).
One of them will be the GG with medic3+morale. Morale is particularly useful to take a enemy on his territory, then retreat to the newly conquered city. Those will be the only fight the GG will perform.

HC is not a threat for our victory, just for the Economics race. After that he will be the most advanced AI, but far behind us.

If you start guilds we'll lose any chance to have it in trade and we delay Astro.

Astro, Corporations and electricity are the only techs which give us a boost with no need to do nothing but research them.

At the moment, i'm in favor of Astro first. One thing i have to try is start a GAge around the time of next TS. Maybe we can have both: Astro and win the race.
This probably will speed the paras and so the war.
But before this i need to finish the previous attempt, to see when i launch. Yesterday night was too late and i made a lot of mistakes. Need a couple hours, maybe 4, then i'll give you my report.

 

[BLubmuz]

Here is the promised report:
Launched on turn 191, despite Shaka, our best trading partner for resources, DoWed me 2 turns before i completed the SS. Miserably sunk all his navy (wooden ships versus destroyers, battleships and attack submarines) and the pitiful SoD he managed to land. Gained another GG in the process.

Turn 191 is a great date. I probably made some minor mistakes in the late game, too.
The AI are far, far behind us. The turn i launched i gave AL to Wang for 50 gold. Poor guy, he was our best trading partner for techs and even for good resources, why not?

I'm convinced of this: Astro first, f..k the GM.

Pindus will build barracks after library, then Xbows. dot.
They will walk to Blubx and airlifted in the new cities.

Also, forget the palace move. We can benefit from that now or in few turns.
Later in the game we'll research DR in 1 turn, as i did in this attemps and build Versailles in Babylon. FP in Sparta or Panama.

Mesix's idea to take the barb cities in Europe can be good, after Portugal is wiped.
There's silk in BFC of a city there close to Russian borders.
This will expose us or our Vassal to Shaka, bu we can afford that.

Now i need to test how can work start the war with only 6 Paras and an early golden Age.

I propose this: Greatbeyond will start Astro in his TS. There's plenty of time to switch to guilds next TS, after some more tests.

This is the good of short TSs: just put some turn on tech we need to research anyway, then we can change next TS. Even if i think this will be the last discussion on the tech path.

 

[BLubmuz]

New report:
I tried to start the war with 6 paras, using 4 for Nippur and 2 for Opi (sneak attacked).
Saved 3 turns on the war. Some risk, but it can worth.

I also did a good thing: traded optics to Wang for HBR and some gold. Of course i wasn't interested in HBR, but in giving him a tech he surely will research.
Few turns later he has guilds. So i traded for GP and some gold.

A good habit:
before hit enter, any turn watch F4 for resources and techs. Probably Guilds is the last tech we can have, but some money for obsolete cheap techs can be good.
Or for a resource.
Then, a tour of our cities, F10 and on: this way we can see the improvements build, change the city workers, maybe assign a specialist, or speed growth or production.
And we don't risk to forget some city if we do this any turn.
I know, it's annoying, time consuming, but it can be the difference between a good game and a great game.

 

[unclethrill]

I'll try to be more involved.

 

[BLubmuz]

I confirm, attack with 6 Paras can be great.
Also my trade for Optics is.
Beaten Wang on Economics for 1 turn.

I confirm this too:
Greatbeyond, start Astro. We got time if my trick won't work to win the Economics race.

 

[greatbeyond]

It doesn't seem there are any objections to Astro after Nationalism. I'll be playing in a little while.

 

[unclethrill]

observatories are more important than an extra GM IMO

 

[Sweetacshon]

Damn, you guys were verbose this weekend! It seems a bit late to join the convo for this TS, so I'll just wait for the save.