SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[Mesix]

Congrats on the new baby Berserks. Give us an update with the deatails (name, weight, etc.) after the birth. If you need any child rearing advice, ask Unclethrill...he has four. Since I have only one, I'm not what you would call a veteran.

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree with most of the goals in post #3. My only disagreement is with Polytheism. Since there is no reason to go down the Asthetics/Literature path early, Polytheism is an unnecessary tech. Meditation is a cheaper tech to get us to Priesthood. We can trade for Polytheism, Asthetics, Literature, etc. later on in the game.

What does the rest of the team think about researching Meditation instead of Polytheism?

I agree on your points. We can save 1 turn researching Med instead of poly. But ususally Poly is more tradable than med. Often the AIs go for Med.
Sure we need Med to pop Philo with our 2nd GS, if we're lucky enough to pop 3 GSs in a row, as i was in my tests.
GS #1 Academy
GS #2 Philo
GS #3 part of Education.

Let's put in this way: we invest 1 turn of research in a useless tech to better trade.
We can go for Med, if the majority think it's better.
I prefer Poly, it's great for trade.

Since we're talkin'bout research, i propose this path after Alpha:
Currency - for the +1 trade route and the ability to gain some money in trading
MC (hopefully we'll have traded for pottery and BW) - forges: we need them to improve production
By that time GS #2 should pop, so philo for free
Paper
Now, we'll have to wait and hope for GS #3 to pop some 60% of Edu
We can go for it directly if we think we're unlucky
or we can squeeze Compass+Optics waiting for GS #3.
In my last test i had a GSpy as 4th Gman, then a GE and all GSs.
I know it's soon, but a draft can help further discussion.

 

[Simon_c]

I think as research is the critical path for getting the CS sling in, and trading won't be a factor until after the Oracle, we should save a turn where we can. I'd vote for Med.

I like the tech path, we can always research Edu for a couple of turns while waiting for a GS.
In my test games I settled all but the 1st GP, and it helped hugely.

 

[unclethrill]

I also think med is the better choice. Poly won't trade for much by the time we get alpha.

Also, settled GP really will make a difference in the mid to late game for both research and production so we don't want to bulb too many.

 

[BLubmuz]

I also think med is the better choice. Poly won't trade for much by the time we get alpha.
For Med viceversa doesn't work

Also, settled GP really will make a difference in the mid to late game for both research and production so we don't want to bulb too many.

I'll try. But i doubt that will be better than bulb Philo and the most of Edu. We can probably settle after that.

 

[WastinTime]

Philo is not needed until you want Liberalism which is not until you're ready for Biology. You can maybe trade for this for free and settle the GS.

Philo is also not a large enough tech. A bulbed GS is overkill.

The only reason to bulb techs this early is to get Oxford early or NationalPark...both major beaker boosters. So you can bulb anything on the way to Biology, like Chemistry, SciMeth (but philo is not the best choice)

Other than that, you're research plan seems very good.

 

[Mesix]

Hmm...trade for Philosophy...that might work better in G Minor 69. One less tech to research may make the difference. Philosophy is nice to get for running the Philosophical Civic to get extra GPP, but this civic has a bigger effect after the National Park is up and running.

I agree with Unclethrill on the settled GS (and other GP). With Representation (from the Pyramids early if we really want to be competative) each GS produces 9 +modifiers from Library, University, etc. If they are all settled in the Capital where we plan to put Oxford, their research over will be invaluable throughout the game and shave more turns off in than an early bulb would. In general, GS are better for bulbing on slower speeds where they have a greater effect on turns, and better for settling on quick games where they still produce the same raw , but lower requirements at higher speed makes this bonus more productive.

I vote to use 1 GS for the Academy and settle the rest of the great people. Possible exceptions to the settling rule may be to build a shrine or found a corporation.

 

[BLubmuz]

Philo is not needed until you want Liberalism which is not until you're ready for Biology. You can maybe trade for this for free and settle the GS.

Philo is also not a large enough tech. A bulbed GS is overkill.

The only reason to bulb techs this early is to get Oxford early or NationalPark...both major beaker boosters. So you can bulb anything on the way to Biology, like Chemistry, SciMeth (but philo is not the best choice)

Other than that, you're research plan seems very good.

What you probably miss in this particular game is the need to survive. Liberalism will go for Rifling to accomplish this target.
We MUST arrive at paratroopers long before our neighbours do, so we'll not only be safe, but can take all the continent for us.

BTW, since you're here around, i'd like to see your thoughts about the dates i posted in #3.
Using my strategy, of course. So i can see how it works, compared to a peaceful one.
Provided you can survive in this map being peaceful.
Pity the HoF record belongs to a game i could play maybe after my 2nd CIV attempt.

 

[Simon_c]

What are our military goals once we get paras ?
Are we going to try to subdue or defeat all the AIs, or just carve out a good size empire to full fill get an early launch ?


In my test game (which I admin was probably slower to paras than your plan) I didn't have the infrastructure to build many paras so when war came (which it did) it was not decisive. Even drilled paras get beaten when 10 trebs are sent against them, and the AI kept avoiding my paras on forest hills.

 

[WastinTime]

What you probably miss in this particular game is the need to survive. Liberalism will go for Rifling to accomplish this target.
We MUST arrive at paratroopers long before our neighbours do, so we'll not only be safe, but can take all the continent for us.

In my test, I got Bio from Lib, then built NPark as fast as possible. I got Rifling that same turn...plenty early. If you allow yourself to be distracted from the ultimate goal (research as fast as possible) you will not be competitive. Your spaceship will launch 1 turn after you finish research.

RE: dates you posted in #3. Are you referring to Lib. t100. That seems like a good goal (but take Bio) Launch has to be before 190. Goal : t180.

 

[berserks01]

Thanks for the well wishes, guys. This will be my 2nd offspring, already have a girl and having a boy now.

So I took a crack at some kind of a dot map and I gotta say it's tougher than I thought.

If 6 cities are all we need, these 4 sites, the barb city, and the island next to our capital will do it. We can add another to take the cow, wheat, and uranium if we need another city or if we want to subsitute it for either the island site or barb city.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have finished the updated Test map but have not had a chance yet to test it. I played it through the first 15 turns and tried to match as closely as possible the moves that were made. I had to move Hammurabi to the appropriate location and I fixed Caesar's name.

I am attaching both the modified save at T1 and the save at T15 in case I got something wrong.

I hope to Test a couple times and then take my turn Friday night or Saturday morning. That should give me enough time to check out Blubmuz's plan.

One of the curious things I noticed is that the Barbs have already had a border expansion. Something that they don't normally do. Perhaps that is one way Gyathaar has made them a little more of a threat. Perhaps he has given them a Temple, Library, or religion.

 

[greatbeyond]

Taking a quick peak at the dot map, I think we should settle 1E of the green dot. That will gain us two grassland we can farm along with the Sheep. Otherwise this city is going to take forever to grow and the added benefit of the Marble will be a waste.

 

[WastinTime]

wasting the fish?

 

[berserks01]

We could move the blue dot 2W and put another city to take the fish and rice and cow. I counted wrong before where the spot 2W would yield less forest tiles than the current blue dot (probably from lack of sleep). But recounting yield the same number of forest tiles.

 

[Simon_c]

We could move the blue dot 2W and put another city to take the fish and rice and cow. I counted wrong before where the spot 2W would yield less forest tiles than the current blue dot (probably from lack of sleep). But recounting yield the same number of forest tiles.

That sounds good.

 

[BLubmuz]

point 1: settle GPs
premise: on my dead body
I've played a test forcing myself to settle them. No more in my life.
Plus, unfortunately, the 3rd GP from TLP was a GSpy, which i kept for a late GAge.
I could have saved no less than 17 turns to Lib lightbulbing.

point 2: research Med instead of Poly
premise: see above
All the damn AIs but one has Med already. This thing nerfed my tech trades.
No, better invest 1 turn, the Oracle will be safe anyway and we'll get it with interests later.

point 3: dotmap
basically not a disaster, but here my thoughts:
no, better i'll edit with my variations. edit:

Green: you gain a GLF and a GL, lose nothing
Yellow: too much water. This way you gain some6 land tiles. Alittle overlap with blue is nothing, they'll never arrive to max size. Expect some 15-16 each in the late game.
Blue: too much overlap with yellow and white, no cows.
White: why have you missed it? it will be just GREAT!
I bet there will be resources in the island, so let's plan a city there.
Probably a 7th one somewhere south of blue. Done.
NP can go in Blue or Yellow, i think in Blue, for now.

Last tought: fish? sounds fishy. better some steak.

 

[WastinTime]

Don't you wanna see what's in the 4 fog tiles by the marble first?

 

[BLubmuz]

Don't you wanna see what's in the 4 fog tiles by the marble first?

I guess ice, tundra at best.
We can see the East and West side, i doubt there will be something different.
Furs? Deer? maybe: we need to scout there.
If nothing is revealed, my yellow is better.

Sequence:
Green will be city 2, for obvious reasons.
White city 3
Blue city 4
city 5 will be on island if it's worth,
otherwise south to grab land, always if it's worth, and there will go city 6 in case.
Yellow will be the last, city 7.

Have you noticed the white "F"? those tiles will be farmed, to bring water on city 2. Otherwise it will never grow, sheeps are not enough.

City names: please remove the "the" from our capital's name. Launch pad is shorter.
New cities: i like greek names, but if some of you is particularly inspired, go ahead.

For more cities, wait for paratroopers. Variations for this game: settle by the machine gun.
BTW, do you think it's casual if Gyathaar placed Hammu with his damn bowmen close to us with our otherwise great UU? We'll never build one, i think.

I've found - probably - the best way to recover. Build warrior 2 on city 2. This doesn't delay much the Airship, but will save 2 turns or 3 on the GW.

 

[Sweetacshon]

What does the rest of the team think about researching Meditation instead of Polytheism?

...

point 2: research Med instead of Poly
premise: see above
All the damn AIs but one has Med already. This thing nerfed my tech trades.
No, better invest 1 turn, the Oracle will be safe anyway and we'll get it with interests later.

Frankly, I had no hassles trading without poly, so am happy with med. wil try a few more tests, tho.

point 1: settle GPs
premise: on my dead body
I've played a test forcing myself to settle them. No more in my life.
Plus, unfortunately, the 3rd GP from TLP was a GSpy, which i kept for a late GAge.
I could have saved no less than 17 turns to Lib lightbulbing.

Huh? Care to explain? Did you take into account beakers from the settled scientist? I'm not willing to write this off until the numbers are clear.

On techs. MC- is this really necessary? Any reason we can't get it later in trade or when we have greater research?