SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

greatbeyond · May 24, 2009

TS played, not much happened. Kassite is ours. We currently have 6 Paras. There are some trades available of old techs for money. HC has learned Constitution.
WK demanded we stop trading with Russia which I refused. Our WB in Corinth was pillaged by the only barb galley on that coast. Hopefully Joao or Hammi will kill it off.

The Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm9/Fifth_Element_SG009_AD1160_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Session turn Log:

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

greatbeyond · May 24, 2009

You're either up late or awake early Sweetacshon. As a reward I have posted everything so you can be the first to critique. Bon Appetit.

Mesix · May 25, 2009

I'm a big fan of starting a GA on this TS. We can burn a GSpy to start the first GA. We should pop either a GA or a GP from Athens before the end of the GA which can be used with the other GSpy for a 2nd GA. When Taj Mihal is finished we can have a 3rd GA. We will get our use out of the Mosseleum that we spent time building. With all three GA chained together, we will be through with the war and onto building SS components before they end.

Mesix · May 25, 2009

The TS looks good. The only thing I would have done differently would be to accept Korea's demand to stop trade with Russia. Russia is currently giving us nothing and dislikes us anyway. Russia is also no threat to us. I have already said that I am in favor of a European war to grow a colony/vassal which others in the team may be opposed to...so this is just my 2 cents.

BLubmuz · May 25, 2009

I just downloaded the save to analyze it.
I've seen you followed my suggestion to give optics to Wang. Let's see how it works in the actual game.

Unclethrill is right about abservatories, pity we have no time to build them for awhile.
Mesix, i must test how a GAge can work so soon. Maybe in your TS, not in this one.
Let's keep the one with the other GSpy+GM (if we pop a GP) or GA for later in the game, when the last Portuguese city will go out of revolt. Say, when we can build factories.
We can delay the Taj, building a library, a uni, a CH in NYC while keeping the Taj on queue.
I'm also thinking to build a galleon and a frigate in Sparta (after my TS), to send to take Joao's southernmost city. The caravel we're hopefully building in Sparta will be upgraded to frigate, to guard our nets in the Pacific until Hammu is wiped, then to block the galleys from Atlantis, so we can build the nets there.

Greatbeyond: :mad:

where is the caravel from Sparta? Why the CH before the forge? Also in Panama!!!
Where is the xbow for Kassite? what do 2 workers on the same forest tile? do they play cards?
Why a para was walking? Where are the paras on Corinth?
Why you didn't trade optics to Wang? What have you traded for HBR? with who?
You did it! :mad:

i've said to FP along the river N of NYC and you farmed! every chop inside BFC has to approved!!! thanks to this we lose 2 gold/turn and 1 happy
Why LP is already size 16 and the 4th sci is not at work?
Where is the windmill fir Pindus? 1F+3H+3G make you sick? And the road for the winery?
Those resources are precious to trade!!!

With the caravel the net will never been pillaged. Now we must waste turns on building a WB!!!
Can you tell me why i'm testing and posting recommendations you don't follow?
Guys, if we wage the war like we manage cities, we need 60 paras, not 6.

First thing to do in next TS: give Optics to wang for 50 gold. HE surely will love us.
Now, it's pointless i go with the previous set of tests. I'll reproduce this situation, then i'll go with a GAge around the time of Mesix's TS. Curious to see how it works for the final result.

Team management
Sweeta, are you ready to play or do you prefer swap with Mesix? If it's OK for Mesix, of course.
The goal is have 3 more TSs played by Sunday/Monday

Sweetacshon · May 25, 2009

greatbeyond said:
You're either up late or awake early Sweetacshon. As a reward I have posted everything so you can be the first to critique. Bon Appetit.

Actually, in Aus it was early afternoon. Some of my friends would claim I was up early, tho

I am ready. I will watch this week's Supernatural, then take a look at the save. I guess I'll post a plan in the next few hours.

BLubmuz · May 25, 2009

Sweeta, i'm testing intensively with the half disaster GB did.

BTW, sorry GB, no arm, just i badly want that medal. I feel a nuisance, like sometime WT was the last SG. But we need to improve our gameplay.

I'll post a detailed plan, or detailed corrections to yours in few hours.

Our war to be started in 2 turns needs max attention.
BTW, i gave optics to Wang, but that stupid never researched Guilds this time.
So, if we want win the Economics race, we need to go Astro - Chem - and the full path to Economics. Then Bio, constitution, corporations, PP, Demo, DR.

Also, the GAge seems work well, but it will be on Mesix's TS. In any case i need more tests.

greatbeyond · May 25, 2009

I have seen the comments but won't get a chance to answer until later tonight. Some answers may surprise, some you may not agree with.

Sweetacshon · May 25, 2009

TS 17 goals:
research: Finish Astro, start Chem: we'll decide what to do once we'll see Guilds researched.
Trades: Watch the alerts and every turn F4 for techs and resources + F10 and city tour.
demands: show them the direction to Hell for any demand. But gently. If Shaka ask some reasonable item, give him
Cities:
LaunchPad: Keep always at least 4Sci + 1Eng at work - Paras, more paras
GPersons: If GS, settle. If GSpy, keep for a GA. If a GE, keep him at sleep: he's the half of SoL
Workers: chop everything right out any BFC, but not Pindus: we need useless FPs to spread forests.
Airship: the map is known. We'll use it to recon in wartime. Do what you want.
Religion: we'll never adopt a religion.
Civics: we'll revolt to FR in our GAge long after Lib, probably.
Espionage: Now the other continent's AI are all @1, Joao @3, Hammu to 2

That's from Blubz #3.
The main questions are about attacking with 6 paras, 4 for Nippur, 2 for Ori, and when to GA. The tech is set. Optics to Wang for 50ish, and keep an eye out for anything else. Sell our wine (and cow) for

if possible, but this is more likely after astro.

Builds will have no change... may as well finish the court in panama, I suppose, and with no nets, the caravel and wb can wait until the forges are done. So, the only decisions to be made are in LP and Athens, which will be ... *trumpets* ... paratroopers. I'm thinking to actually shift the spear from pindus over to ?Kassite? immediately, as it has some

to spare and the xbow is in 2 anyway, and this will free up the para that's over there. Oh wait, we have no galley, so that's futile. Oh, right, he's a paratrooper. So it's possible to shift the Bliubz archer over this turn, shift the spear from Pindus to Blubz, and get the para back from Kassite. Certainly an option.

If the 6 man attack is the go, 2 troops next to Opi this turn, attack next turn, while the other 4 move to the forest NE of Nip, attacking the turn after. Bit of healing, then on to the capital. In your tests, is 1 para enough defence (in the early phase) so that 4 can move to Babylon?

Workers aren't too bad. One will move back north to finish the work around the capital and Athens, and connect the road to Opi, while the others get the mid-lands and south milled. Do you guys want more detail, as it seems to be pretty straight forward choices worker-wise.

BLubmuz · May 25, 2009

I've seen a masterpiece of GB, 2 workers building a LUMBERMILL in Pindus' BFC.
Stop them, send one on the hill and the other on the unroaded wine. Road both, then join them for a windmill.
edit: better you stop all the workers and reassign them to their jobs: i'd like to avoid strange "go to" or automations which can be given by mistake
This can be a rule at any begin of TS.
Then build a workshop S of Panama. There's a worker on the hill W of Sparta. Good. Windmill, then road. After the workshop, you'll road south: we need the roads for the war. You'll road until the cottage 2N of Leiria. I'm not crazy, that road will serve for the Paras jumping from Sparta to reach Leiria in 1 turn after we'll take it. Then the same worker will road to Sparta, from the hill 3S1E of it (close to the lake).

Stop the worker building a FP W of Blubz. Road 2S of Opis, then bring him to finish his job. Switch Panama to Forge, so you can put an Eng at work. Keep the workers safely inside our borders. then there's a windmill to build in the tundra hill for Blubz.

Jump a para from Blubz to Corinth. Keep the other 2 there.
Jump the Para in Kassite IMMEDIATELY in LP. After the Para, LP will build a Xbow and a Whaling Boat. Then back to paras, more paras.
Bring the blimp to Corinth.

Switch a library in NYC, set it to complete in 2, you can.

Next turn: war -1.

Jump the Para from LP (the one already injured) in Athens and airlift the one in LP in Blubz. Jump the 2 non-injured from Blubz to 1W of Opis. 2 LB there, no problem. Promote them to C1, they are fortified on a hill.

2 turns after you begin: war!
declare, then take Opis. Jump the para in Athens there.
Recon with the blimp. You'll probably can jump directly on the forest 1N1E of Nippur.
The one in corinth will jump on the watermill. If you see workers there, capture them with the Xbow in Corinth. The city can stay without garrison for a couple turns.

The Xbow from Pindus will arrive in Blubz, you can airlift him in Corinth, and bring the one now in Corinth in Nippur.

You're right about forges in Sparta and Corinth.

I have tested and a GAge can be good exactly the turn you'll start the war. The Taj will go fast, and we'll have a 18 turns GAge.

It would be better start it after the Babylonian war, if you look to the overall benefit.
But in this way we'll probably finish the wars earlier and benefit of more time to recover the new cities.

This is for your TS.
Looking ahead, when we'll have Hammu in our hands (hoping you guys are good fighters) we can send 3 paras to take Braga from barbs. Great move. We'll airlift the hell there and we'll be only 2 cities away from Lisbona.

Another great move: build a galleon, upgrade the caravel to frigate, load 3 fresh paras.
Land in Tierra del Fuego, Take Evora. It will take over 10 turns to go out of revolt, so no problems of maintenance.

Also, no time to go for Chem: Damn HC will go straight to Economics. Only if we research Guilds after Astro we can win the race. And helped by the GAge.

If we don't care to win the Economics race, we can skip the GAge until after the Portuguese war.

Mesix · May 25, 2009

BLubmuz said:
Sweeta, i'm testing intensively with the half disaster GB did.

BTW, sorry GB, no arm, just i badly want that medal. I feel a nuisance, like sometime WT was the last SG. But we need to improve our gameplay.

I'll post a detailed plan, or detailed corrections to yours in few hours.

Our war to be started in 2 turns needs max attention.
BTW, i gave optics to Wang, but that stupid never researched Guilds this time.
So, if we want win the Economics race, we need to go Astro - Chem - and the full path to Economics. Then Bio, constitution, corporations, PP, Demo, DR.

Also, the GAge seems work well, but it will be on Mesix's TS. In any case i need more tests.

Why wait for the GA? We can chain three of them together to have a sustained GA. It is better to start getting the extra :hammers:

and

now to help with war prep and research when we need it most. An earlier GA may make the difference in winning the Economics race and not.

unclethrill · May 25, 2009

Nice to see that you finally were able to get online. I think that the problem with an early GA is that there is so much undeveloped land plus after the war we will have twice as much land that can benefit from the GA.

BLubmuz · May 25, 2009

Mesix said:
Why wait for the GA? We can chain three of them together to have a sustained GA. It is better to start getting the extra and now to help with war prep and research when we need it most. An earlier GA may make the difference in winning the Economics race and not.

unclethrill said:
Nice to see that you finally were able to get online. I think that the problem with an early GA is that there is so much undeveloped land plus after the war we will have twice as much land that can benefit from the GA.

This is my thought. Probably we can still win the Economic race, if we care and if we start the path right after Astro. We can also immediately switch to guilds: once HC will see that, he'll see he can't stand a chance against us. Then finish Astro and back to the path for Econ.

Why "if we care"? a GM has not great use for us, mainly if we pop a GA. only if we pop a GP and hammu has not built his shrine it can be useful for a late, late GA.

I'm testing with the early GA, it's almost a waste. Our land is undeveloped.
To speed the first GA, we can go fast in build the Taj. A couple luimbermills and the right tiles worked and we can have it in less than 10 turns.

greatbeyond · May 25, 2009

I have spent the last hour working on the reply to Blubz's post offline and suffered a reload error which has apparently lost my offline reply. Perhaps you should save the rest of your critique until you see it. As apparently the turn logs weren't read, and the save wasn't examined too closely. For instance we only have 5 Paratroopers right now.

BLubmuz · May 25, 2009

Sorry for your inconvenient, GB.
The save was VERY well analyzed, to reproduce the situation in my tests.
I know that for the time we planned to start the war, we'll have 7 Paras, even if one will not actively take part on the first battles. If you read my post addressed to Sweeta, you can see what i mean. Anyway, now we got 6, with the one in Kassite.

greatbeyond · May 25, 2009

After having lost my original reply, I'll try to recompile it.

"To stop the galleys, a frigate is more than enough. Maybe even a caravel. I'm trying this in the present test. BTW, with a switch to caravel in Sparta, i managed to sunk the barb galley, and the caravel is now C1. It's on his way to cover the future nets"

The CH in Sparta was already mostly completed. I MM it to shave several turns off. A Caravel would have taken 4T to build and 2T to get it to protect the nets. The nets were pillaged between turns 3 and 4. With no nets to protect, I decided a Forge was a better choice. As it will take 8T for Corinth to build a WB

Panama - Again the CH was nearly done and again I MM and cut off several turns. A forge will take 16T. The CH will cut several GPT off our maintenance until the Forge is producing.

Kassite, The one Para that attacked needed 4T to heal. I started a Para in LP (and finished it) instead of a XB and have Pindus building the XB. We can either leave Kassite vacant for one turn or switch to a XB in LP and airlift it to Kassite. The healed Para can head to LP. The Workers are roading the fur. The CH can be just a placeholder or we can switch to a Granary. I can't tell yet what the maintenance costs are going to be, so a CH may not be needed. I also did not build the WB for the Whale as the Whale can't be worked until Kassite's second expansion.

Workers - Two Workers on one tile, scandalous! One Worker takes four turns, two Workers takes Two turns for the same result. There are no "lost" turns. The tile gets finished twice as fast and the city gets benefits 2T early.

Paras - Right now we only have five Paras. Three are in Blubzville. One was airlifted from LP. The other could not be airlifted in the same turn, so I airdropped it and walked two tiles toward Blubzville. There aren't any Paras in Corinth because we haven't built them yet. We have 1 in LP and 1 in Blubzville completing next turn. One of the Paras in Blubz can airdrop in Corinth this turn and the one from LP can be airlifted to Corinth next turn. That will give us the 4 in Blubzville and the two in Corinth that you sketched out in post #688.

HBR - this was gotten from WK for some gold and IIRC Aesthetics or Lit. I thought the autolog would provide details. Optics? WK had nothing to trade for it and I figured we could wait another turn or two to see if he came up with something for trade.

NYC - I clearly proposed a Farm for the tile and made clear my reasons. NYC needs to grow. We will not be able to work the ocean until we have a Navy. In addition, the chop allowed the Forge to complete early and start the Taj. NYC is also at 8 of 11 happy faces. It does not need the Additional happy now and won't for what 20T? I also started Lumbermills. We broached the subject in the thread. NYC needs Hammers. Later when we need more money than hammers we could always change them to FP.

Winery road, I must have moved the Worker before it was done. Mea Culpa. As for the WM, It is not yet needed for Pindus. After the Workers are done with the Lumbermill they can go back and complete the WM.

Did you miss the Worker west of Sparta? He is ready to mine or WM. I prefer the Mine. Sparta is in need of more production.

"Then build a workshop S of Panama. There's a worker on the hill W of Sparta. Good." Wait a minute, I had a good idea?

The FP In Blubz is for the next Pop increase, otherwise we are working an unimproved tile.

"Our war to be started in 2 turns needs max attention.
BTW, i gave optics to Wang, but that stupid never researched Guilds this time." A good reason to not gift him Optics.

"I'm testing with the early GA, it's almost a waste. Our land is undeveloped.
To speed the first GA, we can go fast in build the Taj. A couple luimbermills and the right tiles worked and we can have it in less than 10 turns."

Yes it is underdeveloped. Lumbermills? Perish the thought!

greatbeyond · May 25, 2009

There are only 5 Paras at this point including the one in Kassite. Count them carefully.

greatbeyond · May 26, 2009

A quick message before bed. I have seen lots of good ideas, especially with regards to the European theatre, and the quick strike to Hammurabi. Don't let the focusing on little things distract us from the good. I too would love to take a medal.

Sweetacshon · May 26, 2009

Yes, it's true, only 5 paras. Only 4 are ready to fight, as well. However, 2 due next turn, and the 1 in Kassite make 7 in all. I don't see any issues here. We want to attack in 2 turns. And that's what I'll do.

I agree with a xbow in LP for Kass after this para, but if gb is right about the border pop, no need for the boat immediately. After that it's paras or maybe another worker depending on Hams resistance levels.

Re: mill at Pindus - I'm not opposed to it, as it has heaps of work to do. I'm inclined to let it finish now that it's started, obviously to be changed when needed ie after NP. Other worker actions, I believe we are all on the same page.

OK, so the final point of contention is finish astro or switch to guilds. I've kind of had enough of umming and ahhing over the GM, which is the only reason to prioritise it over more important techs, so it is tedium that forces my vote to astro.

Well, I'm ready to play, but not sure if anyone has anything else to say. No doubt you northern types are asleep. With that in mind, if I leave it another... 6 hrs to about 10am GMT, that should be enough.

Mesix · May 26, 2009

If we are going Astro first, it is important to get infradtructure in place in the NP/NE city. We need to start work on the University and then build the Observatory and Laboratory after Astro is finished followed by the NE. By the time Biology is finished, the city should be prepped and ready to build the NP. With an Academy, all of the buildings are worth +150% research. We will have 9 free scientists and the representation civic after we finish the NP. That is 54 raw :science:

or 135 adjusted :science:

per turn just from the scientists. That doesn't even cound the commerce from working the NP tiles.

The end game is all about tech pace. We can't waste time in Pindus building units to get 2 more paratroopers when our other cities are more than adequate to build the necessary units for our war. Perhaps we can finish one unit there before building education buildings since we did take the time to build a barracks.

BTW, Unclethrill is right. We need to get an observatory and a laboratory built in LP after Astro is researched. If we divert only one city at a time from troop building, we should be able to sustain our military output and also improve our :science:

output in a few cities where it is beneficial.

SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

King

King

The Allfather

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

HoF Quattromaster

King

In the foetal position

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

Why am I up right now?

HoF Quattromaster

King

HoF Quattromaster

King

King

King

In the foetal position

The Allfather

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