SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

I did finally check out the save. I didn't examine it to the extent that BLub will but in general it looks great. I like the idea of interspersing needed infrastructure into the queues between units. We do need to make sure that we have enough troops though to get the wars over quickly. I am looking forward to Mesix's test results with the GAs. My gut feeling is that 18 turns of GA in the middle of SS construction may be the better choice but I can see that Mesix's point of getting us to the point of building SS parts faster and getting the wars over faster may have merit.

 

[Simon_c]

Hi All,

It looks like it's going great. I've not had a chance to look at the save, nor do I think I will.
Just a quick post to say I think it's unlightly I'll have time to take a turnset until *maybe* Saturday night, but Sunday night is more lightly. I'll try to keep dropping in on the thread though as time allows.

Have fun.

 

[BLubmuz]

With a GAge arriving in 7 turns, a GA from the GSpy is just a waste.
The GAge from Taj will arrive when Babylon is coming out of revolt and our land will be better improved by then.
We can finish Chem, then easily win the Economics race (with all those MBA in team how can we lose it?) just plain.

My tests demonstrate that no overall benefit on the launch date is given by those crappies GAges. Thus we'll save the GSpy for a GAge after the most important Portuguese cities will come out of revolt and the last one around the time we'll be researching Fusion.
By then our land will be *almost* completely improved, Pindus will have his NP/NE, our cities will be better structured and production and research will skyrocket.

Forget the European war, it's just a distraction. Just tell us wich benefits we can have from that.

Now, think on this: for research, markets and grocers are more effective than observatories. Harbors even more. Courthouses first.
Why? we're runnig at a low rate and economic structures will help to raise our rate. Markets will also give benefits in terms of happiness.
In a coastal city my building queue is usually: Lib - CH - Harbor - Uni - Market, in order of cost. The cheaper/most effective one first, so we can benefit earlier.
Forge first, of course, benefits or not.
In the new cities we'll need an odeon if bigger than 9-10, otherwise we can delay it.
If coastal, surely a LH if we don't find one there.

I recommend the roads south and along the rockies in your TS, Mesix.

 

[unclethrill]

Mesix,

Your up. What's the hold up? Don't make we walk across the room and smack you!

 

[Mesix]

I thought Blubz was up before me. I guess the order must have changed.

I'll post a PPP sometime tonight and then play tomorrow night at home.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mesix,

Your up. What's the hold up? Don't make we walk across the room and smack you!

I think you can do it anyway
Better prevent than cure.

If you don't know why, he surely does!

I thought Blubz was up before me. I guess the order must have changed.

I'll post a PPP sometime tonight and then play tomorrow night at home.

No, the order is not changed by at least 10 days.

Noticed that UT is now 2 positions above me in QM. I must do something to gain some 3 points and regain my position

 

[BLubmuz]

I can hear the theme music right now.
good catch!

Umm... it's already hooked. eehehe

Yeah, that sword, it was just sitting out in the forest and not threatening anything, and considering it wasn't on a road, I thought I'd just watch and wait. Surely it'll move into a more favourable position to it.
yeah, but there's a warrior in Athens. Better jump the para LP will complete next turn to block him

That farm, I knew you wouldn't like it, but it'll help growth and we can put workshops on the GL to the south. It can always be milled later. Also, probably no need for an extensive irrigation chain with bio so close.
If you think i don't like something, it's 'cause you did the wrong thing and this is.
Well, np for 1 or 2 worker turns. stop him and send on the hill to road

That spare para - yeah, I just didn't like the fact that Ham could send units thru the fog (if you look you can see how it's possible, so better safe than sorry. You know it can't attack the same turn it jumps, right <- the reason for the delay.
There's no fog between our stack for Babylon and Nippur.
You can safely jump the para there to gain the XP needed to promote him to medic3+morale

What are the thoughts on Sparta building the last uni needed for Oxford? It seems the best option at the moment. Let's get it in there after the boats.

Sparta will build a library after the galleon, then barracks > HE > frigate x2 > paras
but after his WBs, Corinth can build library > Uni.
NYC must build an Odeon , since it's on his happy cap, then library > Uni.

 

[Mesix]

Okay. I've played my TS. Here's the save.

The first thing I did is burn the GSpy for a golden age. It reduced the build time on the Taj Mihal by 2 turns so it is definately the best move.

I didn't have to take all of Hammy's cities. He was willing to capitulate after I took Babylon and the Jewish Holy City. I popped a GP, so we have the Jewish Shrine too.

I have begun to redepoly our troops to Europe. Joao is friendly, but Stalin is annoyed, so I thought it was prudent.

I switched tech to Rockety. Our goal is to build the SS, so why are we waiting for it?

Here is the autolog:

Spoiler :

Research begun: Rocketry (14 Turns)
Golden Age begins
The Launch Pad finishes: Paratrooper
Panama City finishes: Courthouse
Opis's borders expand
Attitude Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 125/330 (1300 AD) [27-May-2009 20:08:23]
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Babylon, Paratrooper defeats (15.12/24): Babylonian Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 93.9%)
Paratrooper promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Babylon, Paratrooper defeats (14.88/24): Babylonian Swordsman (Prob Victory: 95.8%)
Paratrooper promoted: Combat II
Geronimo (Great General) born in The Launch Pad
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Babylon, Paratrooper defeats (17.76/24): Babylonian Pikeman (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Babylon, Paratrooper defeats (19.20/24): Babylonian Catapult (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Babylon, Paratrooper defeats (6.96/24): Babylonian Catapult (Prob Victory: 98.4%)
Paratrooper promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Babylon, Paratrooper defeats (21.12/24): Babylonian Catapult (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Judaism has spread: Babylon
Christianity has spread: Babylon
Captured Babylon (Hammurabi)
Babylon begins: Courthouse (81 turns)
Babylon begins: Odeon (54 turns)
A Forest Preserve was built near Blubzville
A Camp was built near Kassite
The Launch Pad begins: Explorer (1 turns)
Crossbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Paratrooper promoted: Combat I
The Launch Pad finishes: Explorer
Athens finishes: Crossbowman
Pindus finishes: University
Sparta finishes: Galleon
Corinth finishes: Granary
Kassite grows: 4
Attitude Change: Stalin(Russia) towards Shaka(Zululand), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 126/330 (1320 AD) [27-May-2009 20:11:29]
Athens begins: Courthouse (3 turns)
Athens begins: Observatory (4 turns)
Pindus begins: Observatory (4 turns)
While attacking just off shore near Sparta, Galleon defeats (2.88/4): Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
A Farm was built near Sparta
A Windmill was built near Corinth
Paratrooper promoted: Combat III
Paratrooper promoted: Combat I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Akkad, Paratrooper defeats (18.24/24): Babylonian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 97.7%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Akkad, Paratrooper defeats (19.44/24): Babylonian Axeman (Prob Victory: 98.3%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Akkad, Paratrooper defeats (15.36/24): Babylonian Axeman (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
Crossbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Geronimo (Explorer) promoted: Lead by Warlord
Geronimo (Explorer) promoted: Combat I
Geronimo (Explorer) promoted: Medic I
Geronimo (Explorer) promoted: Medic II
Geronimo (Explorer) promoted: Medic III
The Launch Pad finishes: Observatory
Sparta finishes: Library
Panama City grows: 7
Corinth finishes: Work Boat

Turn 127/330 (1340 AD) [27-May-2009 20:14:35]
The Launch Pad begins: Paratrooper (2 turns)
The Launch Pad begins: Laboratory (4 turns)
Sparta begins: University (4 turns)
Corinth begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
Corinth begins: Courthouse (5 turns)
Corinth begins: Lighthouse (3 turns)
Corinth begins: Odeon (2 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Corinth
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Akkad, Paratrooper loses to: Babylonian Longbowman (2.76/6) (Prob Victory: 78.7%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Akkad, Paratrooper defeats (12.00/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 92.5%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Akkad, Paratrooper defeats (18.24/24): Babylonian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Judaism has spread: Akkad
Islam has spread: Akkad
Captured Akkad (Hammurabi)
Akkad begins: Forge (81 turns)
Akkad begins: Courthouse (81 turns)
Pericles(Greece) and Hammurabi(Babylon) have signed a peace treaty
Team 6 becomes a Vassal State of Team 0
Tech learned: Drama
Crossbowman promoted: City Garrison I
A Forest Preserve was built near Pindus
A Forest Preserve was built near The Launch Pad
A Forest Preserve was built near Pindus
Athens finishes: Courthouse
Blubzville finishes: Paratrooper
Corinth finishes: Work Boat
Nippur's borders expand
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Pericles(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) towards Pericles(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 128/330 (1360 AD) [27-May-2009 20:19:04]
Blubzville begins: Observatory (4 turns)
A Forest Preserve was built near Pindus
A Forest Preserve was built near Corinth
A Fishing Boats was built near Corinth
Paratrooper promoted: Combat II
Paratrooper promoted: Combat II
The Launch Pad's borders expand
The Launch Pad finishes: Paratrooper
St. Augustine (Great Prophet) born in Athens
Civics Change: Joao II(Portugal) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Joao II(Portugal) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 129/330 (1380 AD) [27-May-2009 20:20:51]
A Workshop was built near Sparta
A Forest Preserve was built near New York
Athens's borders expand
Pindus finishes: Observatory
Sparta grows: 7
New York finishes: The Taj Mahal
Kassite grows: 5
Kassite finishes: Forge

Turn 130/330 (1400 AD) [27-May-2009 20:22:06]
Pindus begins: Laboratory (6 turns)
New York begins: University (3 turns)
New York begins: Observatory (4 turns)
New York begins: Courthouse (3 turns)
Akkad finishes: The Temple of Solomon
A Fort was built near Kassite
Johannes Kepler (Great Scientist) born in The Launch Pad
Blubzville finishes: Observatory
Sparta finishes: University
Panama City finishes: Forge
Taoism has spread: Namp'o (Korean Empire)
Judaism has spread: Kaesong (Korean Empire)
While defending in Greek territory near Atlantis, Galleon defeats (0.32/4): Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 61.7%)
While defending in Barbarian territory near Atlantis, Galleon loses to: Barbarian Galley (2.00/2) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
Civics Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) from 'Slavery' to 'Emancipation'

Turn 131/330 (1410 AD) [27-May-2009 20:24:58]
Blubzville begins: Odeon (1 turns)
Sparta begins: Odeon (2 turns)
Panama City begins: Library (3 turns)

 

[BLubmuz]

No Mesix, you're jocking, right?

Right, well done.

I was thinking that Germany is not so far away from here...

But just checked the save date on the P&R page before follow your link.

OK, the autolog is from a test game. Well done the joke.

Now try to be effective, or i'll bribe Uncle to do something ... not pleasant for you.

 

[Mesix]

Maybe you can hop on a train from Italy to Germany.

"Mi Scusi!"

 

[BLubmuz]

Which one should i be?
Not that any of those 2 guys resembles me. just to know...

The one well dressed seems a bit ... uhm equivocal

 

[unclethrill]

It's from the movie Eurotrip. The well-dressed one is an Italian pervert hitting on the American in every tunnel the train enters.

 

[unclethrill]

Hey BLubz,

I thought our turnsets would shorten during wars. You should dock Mesix half of his turns and give them to me!

 

[Mesix]

Here's my PPP,

Research paths (my preferred on top...we can discuss)

Guilds (3) > Banking (3) > Economics (4)
alternate Chemistry (3) > Biology (10)

War plans - Take Babylon and Akkad...more from Hammy if I can

Building queues:

LP - Paratrooper (1) > Observatory (3) > Laboratory (4)
Athens - X-bow (2) > X-bow (3) > Paratrooper (6)
Blubzville - Paratrooper (5) > Paratrooper (5)
Pindus - University (4) > Observatory (5)
Sparta - Galleon (2) > Library (3) > Odeon (2)
Panama - Courthouse (1) > Forge (12)
New York - Taj Mihal (8)
Cornith - Granary (2) > Workboat (2) > Courthouse (8)
Kassite (Greenland) - Forge (13)
Opis - Forge (27)
Nippur - Courthouse (??? still in revolt)

Workers...we have 12 so I will post some general goals and not micromanage all 12 here

Finish forest preserves around LP
Finish forest preserves around Pindus
Build watermill and workshops around Panama
Build some forest preserves near New York
Build farms to spread irrigation from Nippus to the wheet near Blubzville

 

[Mesix]

Hey BLubz,

I thought our turnsets would shorten during wars. You should dock Mesix half of his turns and give them to me!

I'm supposed to get an extra TS back for the one I gave up earlier. If you could work one in late next week, that's be great Blubz!

 

[unclethrill]

Here's my PPP,

Research paths (my preferred on top...we can discuss)

Guilds (3) > Banking (3) > Economics (4)
alternate Chemistry (3) > Biology (10)

War plans - Take Babylon and Akkad...more from Hammy if I can

Building queues:

LP - Paratrooper (1) > Observatory (3) > Laboratory (4)
Athens - X-bow (2) > X-bow (3) > Paratrooper (6)
Blubzville - Paratrooper (5) > Paratrooper (5)
Pindus - University (4) > Observatory (5)
Sparta - Galleon (2) > Library (3) > Odeon (2)
Panama - Courthouse (1) > Forge (12)
New York - Taj Mihal (8)
Cornith - Granary (2) > Workboat (2) > Courthouse (8)
Kassite (Greenland) - Forge (13)
Opis - Forge (27)
Nippur - Courthouse (??? still in revolt)

Workers...we have 12 so I will post some general goals and not micromanage all 12 here

Finish forest preserves around LP
Finish forest preserves around Pindus
Build watermill and workshops around Panama
Build some forest preserves near New York
Build farms to spread irrigation from Nippus to the wheet near Blubzville

So for a month you have tried to get everyone to see that Biology needs to come first to get the NP and now that you have you chance to head to Bio, you change to wanting Econ and the free GM???

 

[BLubmuz]

Here's my PPP,

Research paths (my preferred on top...we can discuss)

Guilds (3) > Banking (3) > Economics (4)
alternate Chemistry (3) > Biology (10)
You can safely finish Chem, then start the path to Economics
Goin' for Bio we are in serious danger to not win the race. Even with an immediate GAge. Too few tiles improved, too few structured cities
The GM is not vital, but it's stupid renounce to it.

War plans - Take Babylon and Akkad...more from Hammy if I can
The small Portuguese stack can be a problem: we need to concentrate on one city a time. After those 2 we'll go for the northernmost, then the one W of Babylon, last the one SW. But this will be on my TS, mainly
Building queues:

LP - Paratrooper (1) > Observatory (3) > Laboratory (4) more paras needed. i promise to start some structure in my TS, under the GAge. One more Para, at least, then a cheap harbor
Athens - X-bow (2) > X-bow (3) > Paratrooper (6)
Blubzville - Paratrooper (5) > Paratrooper (5)
Pindus - University (4) > Observatory (5) market first
Sparta - Galleon (2) > Library (3) > Odeon (2) not sure it needs an odeon. Library maybe?
Panama - Courthouse (1) > Forge (12)
New York - Taj Mihal (8) 7, if you work the correct tiles. You'll also avoid it to grow and have unhappy citizens
Cornith - Granary (2) > Workboat (2) > Courthouse (8) 2 workboats, please, then library before CH
Kassite (Greenland) - Forge (13)
Opis - Forge (27)
Nippur - Courthouse (??? still in revolt) i think so, unless you want change with a library

Workers...we have 12 so I will post some general goals and not micromanage all 12 here
Of course. I just recommend you the roads in the south jungle, and the one on the cottage N of (forget the name) the northenmost Portuguese city. And along the rockies. Stop the worker farming the FPlain and road the desert hill

Finish forest preserves around LP
Finish forest preserves around Pindus
Build watermill and workshops around Panama yes, only workshops and the watermill. After the roads.
Build some forest preserves near New York if you manage it, we can maybe delay the odeon
Build farms to spread irrigation from Nippus to the wheet near Blubzville perfect. It seems some forest is grew in the last turns, so if we want irrigate the rice we must bring water from the plain forest N of Sparta Pindus needs water to grow, even after Bio

Where i not comment, i agree. Some comment are just to remind you the mid term goals (say, what i'd like to find in my TS)

Final recommendations for the war:
jump the Para in Nippur to join the stack for Babylon. He will kill a cat, and he'll join our GG to gain Medic3+Morale. We probably have our GG in your first full turn, max in your second.
The other medic will try a safe combat, he must arrive at 10XP the hard way to gain medic2
The Para LP is finishing will JUMP in Athens and move next to that damn sword. He can eat our warrior for breakfast.

Once hooked, trade our only fur to Shaka for dyes. Soon Kassite will expand his borders and we'll have our fur by hooking the one on the hill.

I'm supposed to get an extra TS back for the one I gave up earlier. If you could work one in late next week, that's be great Blubz!

I already left you recover your skipped TS. Just take a look in my #2, in () there are the TS played by each one of us. you're playing your 3rd, like me. The player after me will begin the 4th cycle.

 

[BLubmuz]

So for a month you have tried to get everyone to see that Biology needs to come first to get the NP and now that you have you chance to head to Bio, you change to wanting Econ and the free GM???

Hey, don't burn fires.

We could have had both if stupid Wang went for Guilds.
Not being so, unless we decide to renounce to the GM and try to trade for Guilds and banking sooner or later with Wang, this is the only way.

If we pop a GProphet (hopefully) we can build the Jewish Shrine and use the GM for the last GAge.

But i agree on the Bio path only to finish discussing with Mesix, otherwise i'd prefer the Democracy path.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed to pop a GE as next Gp from LP.

 

[Mesix]

We don't need Chemistry before Guilds. All it gets us is extra from workshops (we don't have many) and new boats (which we don't plan to build). We can wait to finish Chem on the way to Bio. We may (on your TS Blubz) want to get Devine Right before Chemistry > Bio so that we can put down Versailles in Babylon.

LP can build one more paratrooper before the Observatory. We need the extra from though.

Sparta needs an Odeon to grow past current happy cap. It only takes 2 turns...and I hae it after the Library.

I'll try to MM New York to improve build time.

I will add an extra WB in Cornith.

 

[Mesix]

So for a month you have tried to get everyone to see that Biology needs to come first to get the NP and now that you have you chance to head to Bio, you change to wanting Econ and the free GM???

We built a barracks and some troops in Pindus, so it is not quite ready for the NP yet. The GM will help us in the late game if we found Sid Sushi and spread it to select (5-6) cities for the extra food to support specialists/production tiles.