SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · May 30, 2009

Mesix said:
Will LP have WS and OU?

Part of the reason LP is producing so much is because we are at 50% on the slider. As our economy recovers and the slider is adjusted for more the in LP will be reallocated and the benefit will decrease.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea...just pointing out one of the potential downsides.

What are the other options for WS?

Lisbona

Mesix said:
We can run merchants in Pindus. They have raw 3 and 3 under representation as opposed to the 6 from a scientist. With the education buildings in place, the merchants will give slightly less return than the scientists, but the additional GM may make it worthwhile.

Perhaps the cost/benefit analysis should compare the adjusted output of the additional GM in LP (if he is settled) to the adjusted output of 9 scientists vs 9 merchants in Pindus.

A trade mission with Wang or HC may produce more than settling the GM. We can airlift the GM to his destination.

No we don't. I have alredy tried to send the GSpy, remember?
But a GM settled produces also 1F, and maybe we can run one more Sci. He also produces 3 :science:

My idea to put the WS in LP derives mainly from the build time than for commerce. But have you seen the Trade routes income there? And it's anyway one of the best cities for commerce by improvements.

Mesix · May 30, 2009

The following calculations are being made assuming that the construction of necessary improvemebnts are completed.

A GM in LP would produce raw 6 :gold:

and 3

. The

would be increased +25% (market), +25% (grocier), +50% (bank) to an adjusted 12 :gold:

. The

would be increased +25% (library), +25% (university), +25% (observatory), +25% (laboratory), +100% (Ocford) to an adjusted 9 :science:

. So the total output would be 12 :gold:

and 9

or a relative 21 :commerce:

.

Running 9 merchants in Pindus would produce 27 raw :gold:

and 27 raw :science:

. The

would be increased +25% (market), +25% (grocier), +50% (bank) to an adjusted 54 :gold:

. The

would be increased +25% (library), +25% (university), +25% (observatory), +25% (laboratory), to an adjusted 54 :science:

. So the total output would be 54 :gold:

and 54

or a relative 108 :commerce:

.

Running 9 scientists in Pindus would produce 54 raw :science:

. The

would be increased +25% (library), +25% (university), +25% (observatory), +25% (laboratory), to an adjusted 108 :science:

or a relative 108 :commerce:

.

So once the required buildings are in place...it is a wash.

However, without the market, grocier, and bank in Pindus (built at an opportunity cost of time that could be spent building something else...like troops), the difference is 27 :gold:

or a relative 27 :commerce:

which is a greater loss than the 21 :commerce:

produced by the GM in LP.

The decision should be made on whether the additional GM is worth the time spent building the economic buildings (market, grocier, and bank) in Pindus. The other opportunity cost to consider is the additional GM instead of a GS. In addition to the cost of the additional buildings, this path would also cost us one of our late game bulbs.

Mesix · May 30, 2009

BLubmuz said:
No we don't. I have alredy tried to send the GSpy, remember?
But a GM settled produces also 1F, and maybe we can run one more Sci. He also produces 3
My idea to put the WS in LP derives mainly from the build time than for commerce. But have you seen the Trade routes income there? And it's anyway one of the best cities for commerce by improvements.

I was including the trade misssion to explore all the possibilities. I did not remember you trying to airlift the GSpy earlier, so I guess that isn't as good of an option then.

I forgot about the additional +1 :food:

in my calculations above. If we build WS and Oxford in LP, then the total would increase to 18 :gold:

and 9

from the GM settled there or a relative 27 :commerce:

. This is equavelent to the loss by running merchants in Pindus without the additional economic buildings.

Is it worth the loss of the later GS though?

BLubmuz · May 30, 2009

Mesix said:
I was including the trade misssion to explore all the possibilities. I did not remember you trying to airlift the GSpy earlier, so I guess that isn't as good of an option then.

I forgot about the additional +1 in my calculations above. If we build WS and Oxford in LP, then the total would increase to 18 and 9 from the GM settled there or a relative 27 . This is equavelent to the loss by running merchants in Pindus without the additional economic buildings.

Is it worth the loss of the later GS though?

The bulb of a late GS worths 1 turn at the rate we can research by then. Maybe 2 if have one for Electricity.
But any decision about the 2nd GM can be delayed until we decide to found Sushi.
And i'm still not sure it's worth. After my TS, i'll run a test with those new options, to have a better picture.

If we agree on settle the GM, remains only the research path.
IMO, the best is: Finish Economics, research DR in 3, finish Chem, start bio.
While i'll be researching DR Babylon will build an odeon and a library. Then Versailles in GAge.

unclethrill · May 30, 2009

BLubmuz said:
The bulb of a late GS worths 1 turn at the rate we can research by then. Maybe 2 if have one for Electricity.
But any decision about the 2nd GM can be delayed until we decide to found Sushi.
And i'm still not sure it's worth. After my TS, i'll run a test with those new options, to have a better picture.

If we agree on settle the GM, remains only the research path.
IMO, the best is: Finish Economics, research DR in 3, finish Chem, start bio.
While i'll be researching DR Babylon will build an odeon and a library. Then Versailles in GAge.

I say settle GM, follow that tech path, get a GM from pindus, build WS in LP and found Mining and Sushi in LP. The settled GM now will be better than holding him until later and getting nothing for those turns. We are about 70 turns from launching. We need every extra hammer, beaker and commerce we can get if we want to win this thing.

greatbeyond · May 30, 2009

I suppose that if one knew how much Gold we could get for a trade mission you could figure out exactly how much Gold each Civ will give us. If Joao was close to the amount that the most generous civ would give then we could do a trade mission with him. This alleviates having to send him overseas.
The way I read Mesix's calculations, we would get 21gpt from settling the GM. If a Trade mission gets us just 1000 gold then it would take almost 50 turns for a settled GM to exceed the value of a trade mission. Of course this means we give up using him for Sid's and factoring the value of Sid's in, the trade off between a trade mission and settling the GM may only be 30 turns.

Of course if we use the GM for a trade mission, then we don't have to worry about building any of the commerce buildings to improve the settled GM.

Keeping these in mind with the fact that were hoping to be done in 70 turns, a trade mission seems to give the most immediate boost. Especially when we kick in our Golden Age. We should be able to run 100% science for a long time.

BLubmuz · May 30, 2009

greatbeyond said:
I suppose that if one knew how much Gold we could get for a trade mission you could figure out exactly how much Gold each Civ will give us. If Joao was close to the amount that the most generous civ would give then we could do a trade mission with him. This alleviates having to send him overseas.
The way I read Mesix's calculations, we would get 21gpt from settling the GM. If a Trade mission gets us just 1000 gold then it would take almost 50 turns for a settled GM to exceed the value of a trade mission. Of course this means we give up using him for Sid's and factoring the value of Sid's in, the trade off between a trade mission and settling the GM may only be 30 turns.

Of course if we use the GM for a trade mission, then we don't have to worry about building any of the commerce buildings to improve the settled GM.

Keeping these in mind with the fact that were hoping to be done in 70 turns, a trade mission seems to give the most immediate boost. Especially when we kick in our Golden Age. We should be able to run 100% science for a long time.

Me too thought to Joao for the trade mission. In the end Lisbona is on the other side of the world. Like Stockholm and Capetown, roughly.
But since we're settling Gpersons, a GM can be a good choice. Don't forget the beakers and the food he will give. The food can mean another Sci, so the overall benfit can be 9 raw bpt. And 3 more raw gpp.
The OU will surely go in LP for the settled GSs and for the commerce+bureau.
The WS can go there too, Buddism have some 7 cities and will need to be structured after we'll take it. So we probably have to wait too long for the WS there.
Founding the corps in LP will let us quickly spread them, thanks to the airport.
And, as i already said, WS is expensive and we must build it right ASAP.
I mean, right after the corps are founded.
OK, take it.

BLubmuz · May 30, 2009

Well, since the war is almost ended, i'll extend my TS back to 7 turns.

Research: Economics in 1 turn, settle GM in LP. DR - finish Chem, start Bio.
If i pop a GE it can be worth change to Bio from Democracy (SoL), but this can be matter of discussion after my TS

Civics: revolt to FR in the very first turn of GAge.

War:
Kill the injured Xbow near Akkad, let the mace to Joao's pikes.
Bring the 4 lightly injured paras to begin with Borsippa, heal the rest, at least partially.
Finish the strategic road network south, including a road in portuguese land (not for much :evil:

)
Take the last city, end.
Before the end of next TS we'll be ready to declare on Joao.

We now have 11 Paras. Have you seen Joao's stacks? we need no less than 20-25 paras to win the war in a reasonable time.
3 in the galleon to Evora + 4th ready to be airlifted once we'll take it.
4 to keep (2 are enough to take it from barbs) Braga
2 more Xbows for the former babylonian cities. The 3rd can be moved from Athens and be airlifted from LP or Blubz in Dur.
12 - at least - for the first attack. I counted some 14 Portuguese units in our territory. No match for our paras, but they don't have blitz.
This sum 20. Maybe 3 more are enough, we'll see.
In any case we need 9 to 12 more. After those 2 Xbows, stop with them.
The portuguese cities can not be defended by less than a Para. And our GG needs a full health para to be protected.

Cities:
01- LP will finish the harbor, then 2 paras, then a grocer or a bank or a lab, then another para
02- Athens will finish the present one, then another, then structures.
03- Blubz will finish the para, xbow, para
04- Sparta will switch immediately to barracks/HE, 2 frigates, then it will complete the harbor, then a couple paras, then structures.
05- NY will switch to odeon (2 t) then will finish the Taj. Unless you think is better delay it further. Structures there after the Taj. Suggestions welcome. Maybe market uni or harbor uni?
06- Pindus can switch to xbow, finish the obs, para
07- Panama (after the forge in 1t): odeon, library, harbor, uni.
08- Vancouver (it seems more Seattle or Frisco, but OK) Uni after library: we need 2 more for the OU.
09- Greenland (former Kassite) forge in 3, then granary, library, odeon, uni
10- Nippur (CH in 4) library, uni.
11- Opis needs to grow, OK forge, but i'll work a farm
12- Babylon (finish revolt in 2) odeon, library, Versailles
13- Akkad ok forge (LH captured), but in revolt for 5 turns
14- Dur OK CH (forge captured), revolt for 7
15/16- For the 2 new ones, we'll see what the RNG will let us.

I can play in any moment from now, but probably tomorrow morning.

Sweetacshon · May 30, 2009

BLubmuz said:
Well, since the war is almost ended, i'll extend my TS back to 7 turns.

If that's not an abuse of power, I don't know what is.

Yep, tech path is fine, and I'm ok with settling GM, but really, running at 100% science for a while might be great. Airlift to panama (we can do that, right?) and run down will take but a few turns, surely. Remember that we'd be getting "enabling" techs more quickly also, like bio and perhaps having a shot at SoL.

Sweetacshon · May 30, 2009

Just took a quick look at the save. Running 100% :science:

yields about 520bpt at -200gpt. We can only afford to run 30% at 250bpt for -15gpt. With 300 or so in the bank, and assuming a trade mission of 1000, that means we can run for 100% for only 6 turns. But to put this in perspective, this would pretty much pay for bio at 100% in 6 turns, as opposed to 13 at 30%. I say this because we'd probably be up to bio at about the time the GM arrived in Lisbon. Of course the GA would extend this. Add in the extra growth or ability to run specialists with the extra food, and the equation becomes too complex for me on a sunday.

Anyway, I was just highlighting the possibility.

BTW, we can run at 60% (-100gpt) to get eco in 1 turn. You probably noted this already, Blubz.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2009

TS played, highlits:
i delayed the GAge to build an Uni in NYC and to have some more tiles improved. Now we're in the first turn out of 9.
And i revolted to FR
Chem will be due next turn, our science is almost doubled.
then i wish introduce you mr. Guglielmo Marconi (who else?) his friends call him mr. Liberty, guess why?
Not a unit lost
The 3 former Babylonian cities still in revolt will finish in 1,1,4
Versailles will be due in 8 in Babylon, after Odeon+Granary.

Spoiler :

The save

I'm already moving/jumping paras to Sparta for the portuguese war.
3 are already moving to take Braga from barbs.

HC vassallized to Wang.
Joao is only 2 turns from Gunpowder. We must go fast, or we risk to face paras and riflemen.
I'll start immediately a test to see how we can work this.
I reduced the turns of next TSs, due to 16 cities to manage and to the approaching war. We can adjust them later, in case.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2009

Firstly, please take a look on my #3

t 137 (inherited):
some Xbow move, they'll walk.
- the one from Athens to LP. once he arrives, the warrior from LP to Athens
- the one from Opis to Akkad
- the one from Akkad to Babylon
- the one from Babylon to Sippar
- the warrior from Athens to Opis
- the para from Sippar will jump in Nippur, skip
- the remaining paras in Babylon, same: jump in Nippur, skip
The goal is to cover all the cities even let the smallest ungarrisoned and to bring a decent defender in LP: it's coastal, in the end.

The paras walking to Braga will met a Portuguese stack: be care to let one defender more than the actual attackers (trebs don't count, we're in BtS)

Build immediately (next turn, after we'll have chem) a frigate in Sparta, then finish the harbor, then paras
NYC can build the frigate it needs to protect the nets in 2 turns.
Load the galleon with 3 paras, possibly the medic. You should be able to do this the turn the frigate will be ready.

After this, we'll let a couple paras in Sparta and bring the others arriving on the border.
After we declare, the portuguese troops still in our territory will be teleported to one tile next to this and we can massacre them :evil:

.

unclethrill · May 31, 2009

Got save. Am working up PPP now

Mesix · May 31, 2009

Are you really working on the PPP...or are you trying to win the Deity Gauntlet one more time?

unclethrill · May 31, 2009

Turns 137 - 142

Cities:

LP: Para (1) -> Para (3) -> Para (3)
Athens: Para (2) -> Para (3)
Blubz: Para (2) -> Para (4)
Pindus: Para (3) -> Para (4)
Sparta: Harbor (2:1) -> Frigate (3) -> Harbor (1) -> Para (3)
Panama City: Lib (1) -> LH (2) -> Para (4)
NY: CH (3) -> Frigate (2)
Vancouver: Univ (3) -> Para (4)
Greenland: Lib (2) -> CH (4)
Opis: Forge (6)
Nippur: Lib (1) -> xbow (3) -> xbow (3)
Babylon: Versailles (8)
Akkad: Forge (4) -> CH (5)
Dur_Kur: Revolt (1) -> CH (~3)
Borsippa: Revolt (1) -> Forge (~5)
Sipper: Revolt (4) - Forge (?)

Workers:

3 in PC: Finish WS (2) -> move to FP near Pindus to further forest growth
3 in Babylon: Continue to FP around Babylon
1 by Opis: Road to Opis -> FP Opis
1 N of Athens: Finish WM
1 N of Blubz: FP in place -> FP 1E
2 S of Nippur: Finish WM then WM 1 NE

Research:

Chem (1) -> Bio (7)

Trade:

Liberalism to HC for all his Gold (310) if possible. He is willing to trade 310 for DR but we still have 8 turns on Versailles.

Troops

Turn 137 Moves:
XB Athens to LP; then W LP to Athens
XB Opis to Akkad
XB Akkad to Babylon
XB Babylon to Sipper
W Athens to Opis
Para Sipper Jump to Nippur

Other Moves
2 Paras Babylon jump to Nippur
Finish Moving 3 Para to Braga then Attack being aware of the Port Stack size and composition

Move 4 Para to Sparta. Put 3 on Galleon. Move fourth to Border (Jungle 3S 1 W of PC)
Move Medic to Sparta. Put on Galleon
When Frigate Done, send with Galleon to Evora.

Jump 4 Para in Nippur to Vancouver then jump towards Sparta. Do the same with others as the get to Nippur. Move all Para from Sparta to Border for war.

We have 15 Para Now. 3 to Braga. 3 to Evora. Leaves 9 at Border for start of war.

War will start on 140 if troops are in place. With current build times, we will have 4 more headed to the the front by DoW. A GG should pop 3-5 turns into war (next TS but we need to decide if we are gonna make another healer or settle for the beakers.

We need a Xbow to airlift to Braga so the Para can move on. One to be built in Nippur after Lib can go to Blubz for Airlift but will get there after my TS.

War Plan:

Move 4 Para to Braganza. Will take a couple turns to take city.
Move 5 Para to Leiria. Not sure what troops are in city currently but I expect at least 2 turns of combat there also.

Move 2 of 3 Para in Braga towards Guiermeras (sp?). Meet up with troops from Braganza to take that City.

Of course if I declare war on 140. Then I will likely only get to demolish the stack of troops that vacate our borders.

Extra Stuff

After trade, increase Tech to 50% (-36/turn) to increase research +70/turn
FYI: Evora and Faro are only Port. Cities on hills.
We need more XBow for defense in newly captured cities during war. I have 2 in my plan and will likely only take 1 (Braga) in my TS but we need to be aware of this moving forward.

unclethrill · May 31, 2009

Mesix said:
Are you really working on the PPP...or are you trying to win the Deity Gauntlet one more time?

There's your answer. I need to try that gauntlet but I need Homework done more I think. :cry:

I will plan to play in 24 hours unless there are major revisions or discussions to the contrary.

BTW: Good Job on the fluctuating TS lengths. I have been effectively excluded from both wars. I got no turns in Babylon and will get to declare war and do almost nothing in the next war. On the next SGOTM, I want some war turns.

Mesix · May 31, 2009

I would recommend to move the medic to either Blubz or LP (they have airports) and fill the boat with Paras. Once you take the city with an amphibious assult, you can airlift the medic to the newly conquered city.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2009

Seems a good plan, UT.

please follow my recommendations here

some more:
you'll wanna keep the 2nd para from LP and possibly some more to garrison Braga with 5-6 units total. Once cleared the attackers there and healed, some of them can jump to the city East of it. Then, you'll keep another one to be airlifted to Evora (the southernmost city, in any case. Once took it you'll have 4 there (1 airlifted), you'll jump one if decently healed in the hill NE of the city and move to iron, jump another one right on iron and pillage it while jumping.
Always move at least in pairs.
You'll retreat the ones which will kill the "teleported" stack to Panama and from there they will jump to siege Leiria (our FP city).
The ones arriving in Sparta will stay there, ready to jump on the hill (so now you understand my road network) and together with some other para approach Braganza
You should be able to take Leiria in turn 143
and Faro (the stone city), Braganza and Evora on turn 145.

The paras in Braga will attack the stack close to them, being care to never go out of the city if they cannot be back immediately. Do not promote them until you can give them 2 promos in the same turn.
Then we'll go after Coimbra wjich should fall on 147 and Guimaraes, turn 148.
We'll let the 2 westernmost cities last and concentrate on Lisnona and in case only if we need it to reach Lisbona on the city between it and Coimbra. In fact, the paras can jump to Coimbra 1 tile away from Lisbona and move next to it.

Don't sell liberalism. You can speed Versailles building a watermill on the riverside forest with the workers stacked to FP W of Babylon and chop a forest outside of any BFC, probably for Opis.
Be care with the specialists in LP, i has a damn GSPY in my test, despite any probability.

Then, i've found a trick to optimize the turn a city goes out of revolt: the governor puts all artists at work, but you actually need 1 to expand the BFC.
Fire them all, then click the minus close to the workers and they will be assigned to the best tiles. Then, you'll keep an artist and assign the other specialists (if any) to your taste.
The following turn, you'll MM the city firing all the specialists and not working any tile.
Click the minus close to the workers and they will be assigned to the best tiles.
Correct some if needed, done.
It's annoying, but very useful to optimize the production.

Please, please, MM every city every turn and control the trades (techs and resources) every turn before hit enter.

I'm thinking to bring water to the rice of Pindus with an irrigation chain from the forest N of Sparta.

Of course, straight to Democracy after Bio, needless to say, i suppose. Then Corporations.

This plan is not for you only but probably for the TS after yours.
Sorry if i seem (or maybe i am) a pain in the a.s but this is the moment where our efforts will have their pay-off.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2009

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhh

Mesix said:
I would recommend to move the medic to either Blubz or LP (they have airports) and fill the boat with Paras. Once you take the city with an amphibious assult, you can airlift the medic to the newly conquered city.

No dammit, no amphibious!!!
They can't stand a chance with an amphibious assault!!! That city has 60% culture and is well defended!!!
They will land and attack next turn.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2009

unclethrill said:
BTW: Good Job on the fluctuating TS lengths. I have been effectively excluded from both wars. I got no turns in Babylon and will get to declare war and do almost nothing in the next war. On the next SGOTM, I want some war turns.

Sorry, i thought i would have had the central part of the Babylonian war and you the final, but things went faster.

Despite your good plan, you can skip with someone which already fought in the first war. Sweeta, maybe?

So you, Simon and GB can wage some war, maybe shortening the TSs so everyone can have his deserved slice of glory.

BTW UT, the only thing i don't like in your plan are the Xbows to build. Too weak to be sent at the front and any Portuguese city is the front.

Also, be very careful before move the paras from Braga, that guy can assemble a decent stack from the thin air.

SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

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HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

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HoF Quattromaster

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