SGOTM 09 - Misfits

We have one vote for trading with everyone on the other continent, and two for trading with everyone but WK (to avoid penalties with the rest, and because he may get DOW-ed by everyone else eventually).

I will trade Alpha to HC for Mono, and gift Alpha to Stalin and Shaka. This should hopefully speed up research on the other continent, without getting penalties with anyone but WK.

Please don't do this. :) With HC's low WFYTBTA and I think we are going to struggle to get him to friendly so don't waste one on Mono. We can always bribe civs to stop war so with shared favourite civics we will be able to trade with WK and HC. No point imho cutting off one of those. Stalin/Shaka we will never get much form anyway.
 
Regarding who to "love up to"
I have been thinking ... WK is the odd one out on that continent beeing all the way east it is unlikely to have his religion spread to the Zulu. So the Zulu's soon will belong to the Inca/Russia block. It is probably better to have 3 AI like us than to have one AI love us, get attacked and die/be vazalled with 2 cities left.
So I am good with any plan to
1) Love up Inca/Russia, probably Shaka too
2) Get us technologicaly faster up the tech tree.

Hopefully Russia/Incan/Zulu will be loving eachother to trade monopoly techs amongst eachother to enable trading to their other friend as well. We just need to avoid a AP loss or diplo loss :).
As a result I would:
1) Trade CoL for Mono with Hammi (keep the WFYABTA counter low on the other continent)
2) Give CoL to Joao
3) Distribute Alpha and get some +Diplo points as well as speed up tech over there.

That is your option #2

Regarding exploration...
Only thing priority right now is
1) Circumvention for +1 movement of ships should we want to use them
2) Defog our content so we can see all land

Once that is done, get the Zeppelin home to support our defence of Bear town... Possibly even before... Keeping bear town is way more important than knowing exactly what is where at this time.

Military
Use the XBow in Athens / Island city to help defend Bear town, once he is there as a backup we whould never have trouble keeping it...
4 archers may get lucky and take out 1 XBow, with 2 defending. But ever so more unlikely with 3 defending.

@Sleepless' Self-research vs trade.
I neglected to mention this but you are having Currency as both Trade and Self-research?

@Calander/MoM
Calander is a 2 turn research and MoM is "only" a 12 turn build in Sleepy's (assuming Marble and 13 base hammers a turn)
Now add to this some trickery:
- Barracks
Pre-build the barracks to less than 13 hammers invested (12 is possible!) And whip for 2, take it out of que to store the hammers. We store 19 (assuming 12 hammers production) + 12 = 31 hammers overflow to MoM, or 2+ turns overflow saved towards MoM.
- Courthouse
Pre-build the Courthouse to less than 60 hammers (4 * 13 = 52, 4 * 14 = 56) whip for 2 and do the same trick to store the hammers.
Or
Prebuild to less than 40 hammers and whip for 3 (pretty harsch whipping here!) and the same trick.
- Library
Prebuild to less than 10 base hammers (= this turn or next turn) and whip for 2, same trick.

In particular the Library and Barracks are very doable before we get Marble up, with each of these builds not beeing absolutely usefull (yet) we can life with the (small) delay in finishing them.
We can however only overflow so much so we cannot go Barracks > Library > MoM without turning hammers into gold, but Barracks > MoM > Library > MoM we can do.
But Barracks > Courthouse > MoM will work, in which case we could send 5 or 6 turns worth of production to MoM on the first turn! Leaving only 7 turns to build it.

We should then endevour to make Sleepy our Artist wonder city, so that some day it may produce a 100% pure Great artist.
Make JH our GP wonder city... and hope that LM never spawns a GP.

Some idea on Moaui...
LM is already low on hammers, building a national wonder that is quite expensive without stone AND has marginal return (3-5 hammers?) will not make LM into a powerfull producer. At best it will go from weak production to less weak/low production.
Instead we maybe add Moaui to SdL, it has already decent hammers and some nice boosted coastal tiles with Moaui. The added hammers will add to its strength, production, while we run some specialists where/when it makes sence.
Globe should take care of happyness issues, while health we have plenty for the moment. Harbor, Aquaduct (etc) and hospital may just add to health more if needed.

On worker turns
WorkerTurns said:
- Emmett Brown (SW of capital) finishes preserve. Move 1NW,1NE for another preserve. (to get closer to LM which also needs preserve on that grass forest). Then road that tile for eventual hookup of marble.
- Obama (near CiB) finishes windmill, then moves to forest for preserve.
- Arcadic (on island) moves 1NE to build road. Then 1NE to build road (to speed later movement). Then use completed roads to move to fur tile and camp. Then use road to move to forest and preserve.
- Worker (on island, needs name) moves 1N to build road. Then 1N to road furs. Then camp (helped by Arcadic), then use road to move to forest and preserve.

- New worker from JH will move 1E and build road (1 turn only). Then 1SE and build watermill on the open grass tile.

- New worker from LM will move 1E and preserve forest, then 1 SE and preserve forest.

Emmett Brown
I dont know about moving 1NW, 1NE and putting a road there? That road is basicaly useless, 1N as per your original plan atleast the road will serve a purpose... IMHO.
From 1N he can go to connect the Marble, dont exactly know how many turns we need to make the quary.

Obama
Make sure to do the "important" forest preserves first (the one next to the open tile)

Arcadic
Why not build a Preserve for 2 turns instead of an additional road, puts us closer to the preserve and +1 happy... The road adds nothing that cannot be done later.
1NE, Road, Preserve 2 turns, Camp furs, Finish Preserve
Only 2 turns preserve, make sure to finish the road first on turn #3 and move Arcadic on the finished road or preserve for 3 turns....

Island Worker (without name)
He and Arcadic move together to the partial preserve? To speed up the first preserve. Then split them up?

New worker JH
Your proposal doesnt work, cannot build a watermill!!
I propose:
1SW (on the road), 1SE, Preserve
or if we want the Quary in a hurry and the road 2 west of JH is done, go help Emmett to hook up the marble.
 
Tech will proceed to Edu as in the plan, leaving enough beakers for a full bulb. Raise cash in any extra turns, to speed later research.
Perhaps research Calander in 2 turns?
Sleepy will build the courthouse (save gold, gain EP), then a worker for southern cities if/when it hits the happy cap.
How about storing (whipped) hammers in buildings for a wonder? MoM?
I really dislike building workers here...

I will aim to play tonight after work, about 8 hours from now. So there is still time to make suggestions for changes/additions.
I hope you catch my post :)

Please don't do this. :) With HC's low WFYTBTA and I think we are going to struggle to get him to friendly so don't waste one on Mono.

I agree (see above) get mono from Hammi, Lets use up his WFYABTA before he dies :lol:
 
Please don't do this. :) With HC's low WFYTBTA and I think we are going to struggle to get him to friendly so don't waste one on Mono. We can always bribe civs to stop war so with shared favourite civics we will be able to trade with WK and HC. No point imho cutting off one of those. Stalin/Shaka we will never get much form anyway.

Regarding who to "love up to"
[...]
As a result I would:
1) Trade CoL for Mono with Hammi (keep the WFYABTA counter low on the other continent)
2) Give CoL to Joao
3) Distribute Alpha and get some +Diplo points as well as speed up tech over there.

OK, I can agree with this. It's basically what I suggested as well, except for trading CoL to Hammi ... this may make Hammi stronger (better research due to less maintenance, more espionage, earlier CS, ...) when we want to attack him, but I suppose we won't need a lot more effort to conquer him ...


KaleLambiek said:
@Calander/MoM
Calander is a 2 turn research and MoM is "only" a 12 turn build in Sleepy's (assuming Marble and 13 base hammers a turn)

Why are you so obsessed by the MoM? Are you really sure it will pay off?

How many Golden Ages do you plan on having? We should aim to have as many scientists as possible, who can be settled or bulbed ...

What does this leave? 1 GA from the Taj Mahal and another GA from an 'accidental' other Great Person. Do you think/hope we get another 2 different, other Great Persons, for a 3rd GA?


KaleLambiek said:
Some idea on Moaui...
[...]
Instead we maybe add Moaui to SdL, it has already decent hammers and some nice boosted coastal tiles with Moaui. The added hammers will add to its strength, production, while we run some specialists where/when it makes sence.

Yes, Moai should go to SdL ... Bear Town would have been an alternative if it had been settled earlier.
But LM should never been used to actually produce something else than Great Scientists!
 
@Sleepless' Self-research vs trade.
I neglected to mention this but you are having Currency as both Trade and Self-research?

That was just a list of what we could reasonably expect to get in trade from the early techs, I didn't expect to get all of them. Of those I think currency is one important one we cannot delay to much. If we share it around to our friends that will speed up there research rate as well.

For trade purposes on the other continent (I assume). I don't think we would get any of them to friendly and if we support WK with techs/bribes to stop war and they keep on attacking him that'll keep them busy all game. Of course if they kill of WK, Shaka/Stalin would look somewhere else and that could well be us. Not that I would be worried but it would be a waste of resources having to build troops we don't need.

We have the best chance of getting Joao (besides Ham) to friendly and that is where we should concentrate all our diplo/interests imho.

A last thought the Apostolic Palace. This might mean we have to go into OR. Not for religion but to stop anyone else getting an AP win we would have to spread the religion around. Have to see on that as I expect HC to build that as well. I don't expect to see the UN in this game so not afraid of a diplo win.
 
Still a lot of different thoughts on how to handle the diplo/tech trading.

I was avoiding trading CoL to Hammi as JH and Chris had both been against making Hammi stronger/helping his expansion. Chris seems to be reconsidering that?

On the other continent, I can gift Alpha around without taking Mono, but it is still not clear if we should trade with WK (with plans to try to trade with everyone) or not (trade only with HC and his block).

We will work to make Joao our friend, but he is not likely to be nearly as valuable a trade partner as HC, or even WK (assuming WK is not killed by the HC/Stalin block).

MoM -- do people want to make a major effort for this? We will need to divert a couple workers to the marble ASAP, set up the whips in Sleepy as Kale described. And we might not get the wonder anyway, as we do not know how long HC has had Calendar. He could finish the wonder next turn, for all we know. Shifting research to Calendar definitely means a delay of Education.

I do not want to play the turnset and end up offending the wrong AIs, or otherwise creating a lot of problems later in the game. These diplo/tech trade decisions need to be agreed upon by the team, since we will all have to live with them.

Please provide your opinions, and I will try to go with whatever consensus emerges.
 
Hap,

By my count the majority of the team is in favor of ditching WK. I understand Sleepless' concerns but given that Stalin/Shaka/Capac are likely to be a bloc, WK is the odd man out, EVEN WITH a higher tech trade limit. I really do not want (and knew I had messed up) when I had ticked off 2 aggressive AI's. Shaka would make that a 3 Aggressive AI bloc. WK isn't Aggressive.

I do not want MoM but I won't care if we try. It's not going to hurt us if we don't get it, the gold will help.

If we are going to convert to confusion soon, then my concerns on Hammi are muted. If you want to trade him CoL, go ahead, but note that I will clamor for more military and power techs.
 
Why are you so obsessed by the MoM? Are you really sure it will pay off?
Having a couple of golden ages near the end when settling/bulbing GS doesnt work/coutn anymore will help greatly. Having 9 vs 6 turns = huge. having 2 GAs for 18 turns or 3 GAs for the same 18 turns = HUGE!

saves us 3 GPs ... or more than 4 if we want 3 GP bulbed GAs
Yes, Moai should go to SdL ... Bear Town would have been an alternative if it had been settled earlier.
But LM should never been used to actually produce something else than Great Scientists!
Maybe Wall street?


Shifting research to Calendar definitely means a delay of Education.
No it wont, we wouldnt research it untill after Edu... We need time to setup the whips and connect the Marble anyhow... Then again it might all be futile... but 100 hammers makes Calander already 0 beakers (but some hammers) investment...

I do not want to play the turnset and end up offending the wrong AIs, or otherwise creating a lot of problems later in the game. These diplo/tech trade decisions need to be agreed upon by the team, since we will all have to live with them.

Please provide your opinions, and I will try to go with whatever consensus emerges.

I dont know what the maxes are for the different ai on "you traded with WE", if we can prevent them untill widespread Lib = Free Religion....

If we can keep them all happily trading all the better but we will run into "To advanced" soon unless we get someone to happy enough to ignore that. Trading with everyone will not get us to a place where someone is happy enough to do so...

If we want a long term partner we have to choose and not be protective of anyone. other than the one we choose. Hammi = dead
Joao.. probably dead... easily happy untill we see fit he dies.

Others are really worth considering, but what are their stats? Civics? etc? Shaka is a lost cause in most games... but having Mids/Wall may be better this game? Depends on his lands I guess?? Normaly Africa -assuming earth like map- would be "tough" terrain....

If you want to trade him CoL, go ahead, but note that I will clamor for more military and power techs.
Power techs = Gunpowder & Riffling :)

I say:
Education (build uni's)
MC < run 0% untill we can go 100% to Para's >
Riffling (build some Para's while waiting)
< KILL HAMMI > < run 0% untill 100% to Astro >
Astronomy <start Obs/Labs in the home land while we finish Hammi>
Liberalism (Radio)
Nationalism < Taj >
< Lauch to space ;) >

Maybe mix in a usefull tech like Currency / Calander / Construction that we cannot trade for in a timely fashion.
 
I was avoiding trading CoL to Hammi as JH and Chris had both been against making Hammi stronger/helping his expansion. Chris seems to be reconsidering that?

Well, Chris suggested not trading to many techs to Hammi to keep him weaker. But if Kale and Sleepless want to trade him CoL for Mono, to keep the WFYABTA-factor on the other continent lower, I think that's a good argument. And that 1 tech won't make him much more powerful. If we go Edu->Paratroopers like Kale suggests below (and as has been suggested before), Hammi should still be weak enough to not cost us too many hammers.


haphazard1 said:
On the other continent, I can gift Alpha around without taking Mono, but it is still not clear if we should trade with WK (with plans to try to trade with everyone) or not (trade only with HC and his block).

As I read Kale's post, which I quoted and agreed on, he talked about the Inca/Zulu/Russia-block when suggesting gifting Alphabet around. For me, that means NO TRADING with Wang Kon. That's my opinion, in any case. For me, Wang Kon is already dead or nearly dead. Means not worth any effort, if it pisses off the survivors, which it would do at the moment.


Having a couple of golden ages near the end when settling/bulbing GS doesnt work/coutn anymore will help greatly. Having 9 vs 6 turns = huge. having 2 GAs for 18 turns or 3 GAs for the same 18 turns = HUGE!

saves us 3 GPs ... or more than 4 if we want 3 GP bulbed GAs

OK, but where do you get those different GPersons from. Keep all early born GPeople who are not GScientist until the end? Or set up cities to give us the different GPeople we need to pull off those Golden Ages; which means no more scientists in our strongest-GPP-cities?

If you see us do that, and if it doesn't interfere with Education and/or Universities (which your plan doesn't ;)), I'm OK with trying for it ...


KaleLambiek said:
Maybe Wall street?

If the spread is worth building Wall Street here, LM can try to. But I don't see it finishing it anytime soon.

And you don't plan to 'waste' 1 national wonder (which could make another more-or-less-production city stronger) only to build another national wonder faster, because the target cities doesn't have any other hammers?


KaleLambiek said:
If we want a long term partner we have to choose and not be protective of anyone. other than the one we choose. Hammi = dead
Joao.. probably dead... easily happy untill we see fit he dies.

Others are really worth considering, but what are their stats? Civics? etc? Shaka is a lost cause in most games... but having Mids/Wall may be better this game? Depends on his lands I guess?? Normaly Africa -assuming earth like map- would be "tough" terrain....

On keeping Shaka and Stalin up-to-date, I don't see any disadvantages (as long as we keep them happy, and they don't use our tech-units against us :crazyeye:).
If we go with HC, we can keep both of them up-to-date as well, as they are all friends. If they can then offer us some techs (military-techs?), which HC or Joao don't know yet, it already payed off.
If they are never able to offer us techs, well, it didn't hurt us either. By gifting them techs, we kept them happy and prevented them from declaring on us.

Either case, we win!



Hap, if you still play tonight, then: Good Luck :king:

If not, I'll give you more opinions tomorrow morning :lol:
 
The majority rules so I'll obviously go along with the majority. I still think we should try and keep everyone pleased well WK/HC so they'll trade to there wfybta limit and stop any wars between the 2. Stalin/Shaka will be useless for trade. You want to kill off Ham. That only leaves Joao and I'm totally against any war with him. Unless we don't have aluminium and he does but that will be late on anyways. :)
 
OK, sounds like we trade with HC/Stalin/Shaka on the other continent, and snub WK. (We can always change our mind and trade/gift him later, if we decide we need to.) So Alpha for the other three as a gift.

On the home continent, CoL to Hammi for Mono, and gift CoL to Joao.

Do we go for MoM -- workers head for the marble ASAP, Sleepy starts stacking whip hammers in preparation? If we leave the tech for after Edu, I think HC will complete the wonder and make the issue moot. Sleepy can always dump the overflow hammers into something useful (settler, Broadway, airport, whatever) later.

I will try to play tonight (about 2 hours from now), following the above.
 
OK, turnset played. Certainly could have gone better, mostly due to factors beyond my control.

We got a prophet. :cry:

The barbs have longbows. :eek:

The barbs are landing units near Bear Town, as anticipated. :(

I was not able to circumnavigate.

On the positive side, we can trade for Monarchy. :) The furs are connected, cities are growing and building and improving.

OK, turn by turn:

T73 - inherited turn

- Shift all EP to Joao
- Trade sheep to Joao for wheat, clam for cow; not able to trade resources with Hammi
- Trade CoL to Hammi for Mono
- Gift CoL to Joao
- Gift Alpha to HC, Shaka, Stalin; also gift Med to Shaka, Myst and Fishing to Stalin

T74

- Gifted Mono to Joao and Shaka; gift Med, Poly, Sailing to Stalin

T75

- Paper completed. I should have waiting on the minor trades, and gotten world maps from all the AIs. :( Then maybe I could have circumnavigated. :hammer2:

T76

- Confu spreads in Dur-Kurigalzu
- Gift Priesthood, Mono to Stalin

T77

- HC asks for Electricity. Another -1 diplo. :(
- Hammi has a settler party NW of Sleepy.
- Stalin has Construction! Hopefully HC will be willing to trade soon.

T78

- Our lighthouse in CiB is sabotaged! :( All hammers are lost.
- Confu spreads to Akkad. Shrine cash up to 6 gpt. :)
- Hammi founds a junk city NW of Sleepy, giving us -1 for close borders. :(
- Found Bear Town, adding 9 gpt to our maintenance. :(
- Hammi has Monarchy and will trade! :woohoo:

After some consideration, I hold off on trading. No city will need the happiness within the next few turns, so we can get to our GP first and then trade. I do not want anarchy right now, as we have a worker due next turn.

T79

- A prophet is born somewhere in the world.

T80

- WK builds the Hindu shrine. He may be stronger than HC after all.

T81

- The barbs land troops near Bear Town...including a longbow! :eek: Combat 1, Hills 3, Medic I, accompanied by a warrior CR3, Medic 1. Trouble, big trouble! :eek:

I am forced to retreat the worker north (working on a forest preserve 1N of the city, sign on the map), and move his covering xbow into the city for defense.

I also set JH to produce a mace, rather than the settler I had planned. Will finish in one turn, thankfully. We need tougher units!

- I airstrike the barb LB (thankfully I moved the zep back to JH the previous turn). The flight also reveals Atlantis -- all LBs, many with Combat 3, plus axes and spear with CR promos. :eek: Bear Town is in for a fight -- I shift Sleepy to finish its barracks, so it can start building some promoted units in a couple turns.

- Our xbow in the south kills a (regular) barb axe. Gets 2 XP, takes heavy damage.

T82

- We get a prophet in LM. :cry: Set research slider back to max, 6 turns to Edu. :(
- Shaka now has Construction (just this turn), hopefully that will be enough for HC to be willing to trade next turn.


Note that the zep, the prophet, and one worker (on Sleepy's wine) have not moved yet this turn. If we trade for Monarchy, the worker can start a winery.

The barb galley, plus another from the south, have gone back to Atlantis -- we could see 4 more units landed next turn! :eek: Mace is on the way to Bear Town, as is our southern phalanx. We are going to need more units! :hammer:

Here are a few screenies:

T82techs0000.jpg


T82diplo0000.jpg


T82demos0000.jpg



The save is uploaded.

Kale is UP to fight some barbs and hopefully get some good trades, plus Edu.
Mastiff is on deck.

Sorry the report is not more positive, guys. :( Things were going so well, up until the last couple turns....

Turnset log:

Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 80 BC to 260 AD:

Turn 73, 80 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

Turn 74, 40 BC: You have trained a Worker in Lake Mastiff. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 75, 1 AD: You have discovered Paper!
Turn 75, 1 AD: The borders of Sleep's Shock have expanded!
Turn 75, 1 AD: Confucianism has spread in Dur-Kurigalzu.

Turn 76, 40 AD: You have constructed a Library in Sushi de Luxe. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 77, 80 AD: The borders of CopperIceBall have expanded!
Turn 77, 80 AD: Confucianism has spread in Akkad.

Turn 78, 120 AD: Bear Town has been founded.
Turn 78, 120 AD: You have constructed a Library in Island Town. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 78, 120 AD: Moses (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 79, 160 AD: The Kashi Vishwanath has been built in a far away land!

Turn 80, 200 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 80, 200 AD: Lake Mastiff has grown to size 7
Turn 80, 200 AD: Lake Mastiff has become unhappy
Turn 80, 200 AD: Sleep's Shock has grown to size 5
Turn 80, 200 AD: Sleep's Shock has become unhappy
Turn 80, 200 AD: Sushi de Luxe has grown to size 4
Turn 80, 200 AD: Sushi de Luxe has become unhappy
Turn 80, 200 AD: The borders of Bear Town have expanded!
Turn 80, 200 AD: Sushi de Luxe's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 81, 230 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 81, 230 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 81, 230 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Longbowman! (-19% Damage)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Barbarian'sAxeman (3.33)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 81, 230 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 81, 230 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 81, 230 AD: Your Crossbowman has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 81, 230 AD: Tsongkhapa (Great Prophet) has been born in Lake Mastiff (Pericles)!
Turn 81, 230 AD: The borders of Sushi de Luxe have expanded!
Turn 81, 230 AD: Island Town has grown to size 4

Turn 82, 260 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
 
If we go Edu->Paratroopers like Kale suggests below (and as has been suggested before), Hammi should still be weak enough to not cost us too many hammers.
The trick of the war VS Hammi is going to be ...
early enough to have him weak
late enough not to cost us to much in tech development
early enough to 'fit in' the para's
late enough to get the Uni's up
early enough to allow for Obs/Labs to be build.

We can also go Astro > Para, buidl Obs/Lab then go Para's but by that time I "worry" that Hammi has LBs/maces, probably still relatively easy... but we can catch him (maybe another *nearby* AI) with Archers.... Zoooooooooooooooooooooom.....Maybe as few as 7,8,9 or 10 Para's would already be overkill.

As I read Kale's post, which I quoted and agreed on, he talked about the Inca/Zulu/Russia-block when suggesting gifting Alphabet around. For me, that means NO TRADING with Wang Kon. That's my opinion, in any case. For me, Wang Kon is already dead or nearly dead. Means not worth any effort, if it pisses off the survivors, which it would do at the moment.
Yes, I think we need to get some "love" going around to get over the "monopolo-me-no-trade" thing as well as long lasting peace. At this stage of the game you cannot be friends with everyone and its better to love a few than to be cauotious with all IMHO.

Keep all early born GPeople who are not GScientist until the end? Or set up cities to give us the different GPeople we need to pull off those Golden Ages;
Well possibly both... by running multiple specialists Priest/GM/GS/Engeneer/Artist we mix up the gen-pool to favour that which we want. MoM you dont as much see as a GA extender, but a GP replacement.
Consider this, 18 turns of GA, you can use 3 GPs for that (2 times 9 turns) or 6 GPs (3 times 6 turns)
36 turns of GA you can use 10 GPs (4*9) or 21GPs .... (is that even possible?)

if it doesn't interfere with Education
IMHO Education = Prio #1 at the moment.

If the spread is worth building Wall Street here, LM can try to. But I don't see it finishing it anytime soon.

And you don't plan to 'waste' 1 national wonder (which could make another more-or-less-production city stronger) only to build another national wonder faster, because the target cities doesn't have any other hammers?

The majority rules so I'll obviously go along with the majority. I still think we should try and keep everyone pleased well WK/HC so they'll trade to there wfybta limit and stop any wars between the 2. Stalin/Shaka will be useless for trade. You want to kill off Ham. That only leaves Joao and I'm totally against any war with him. Unless we don't have aluminium and he does but that will be late on anyways.

I agree its doubtfull Shaka or Stalin are going to be real contributers... Then again we only would get a few techs from Mansa too...
The big difference which we cannot determain yet is going to be their lands... how good or bad is it? Even mansa will suck in 90% tundra land, while I have a had very strong Shaka with loads of grassland.

If afrika is a dessert, shaka is going to suck hard. But he did build Mids and Wall. If afrika turns out to be the garden of eden.... he will eventually be up there.

While I agree on the face of things HC and WK are the best techers. Sad thing is they are not friends and in Civ there is no halfway things... Go one or the other and do so 100%... I still have to consider MoM though... its usefull but usefull enough?

Do we go for MoM -- workers head for the marble ASAP, Sleepy starts stacking whip hammers in preparation? If we leave the tech for after Edu, I think HC will complete the wonder and make the issue moot. Sleepy can always dump the overflow hammers into something useful (settler, Broadway, airport, whatever) later.
Well if HC solves the issue for us...

I dont think you would need to stack hammers just yet... but prep it... i.e. build lib 1 turn and Barracks 1 turn.

Worst case indeed we can send the hammers to Broadway even a Uni if we want.
Although I really see a Uni here as a last last resort... given its -very- limited usefullness.

We got a prophet.
Crap! on what 20% !!

The barbs have longbows.
Looks like barbs are teching hard :) Will they launch if they get that far?

I was not able to circumnavigate.
Not that important.

- Paper completed. I should have waiting on the minor trades, and gotten world maps from all the AIs. :( Then maybe I could have circumnavigated.
Yes well.. we all should have mentioned that :mad: I certainly didnt consider that?!

- Gift Priesthood, Mono to Stalin
What no trade for his map?

- HC asks for Electricity. Another -1 diplo.
I still thing we should shell out electricity... Broadway is not what we want we want its product, Musicals.
- Our lighthouse in CiB is sabotaged! :( All hammers are lost.
Hammi, must be hammi!

- Found Bear Town, adding 9 gpt to our maintenance.
Cities are getting expensive!
- Hammi has Monarchy and will trade!
Why hammi!?

- The barbs land troops near Bear Town...including a longbow! :eek: Combat 1, Hills 3, Medic I, accompanied by a warrior CR3, Medic 1. Trouble, big trouble!
LBs are trouble. I hadnt anticipated that...
XBows are no good vs LBs... Perhaps we do need a Mace or two.

I also set JH to produce a mace, rather than the settler I had planned. Will finish in one turn, thankfully. We need tougher units!
LOL Agreed!

Comments on the save...
Courthouse in Sleepy is overbuild by 1 hammer for whipping :( only a 1 pop whip left :(

IMHO Hammi has also settled a city in his south east to grab the clams there.

Why is namliaM not west of that Tundra hill?? Preserves are nice but in the right place :)

I would probably work the Fur instead of 1 scientist in *highly inspired* island city.

We dont really need Monarchy at this time we have atleast 1 happy to go everywhere. Dont need the wine or the anarchy at the moment... Plus... CS? or Electricity for Monarchy?? Crap why did we do CoL <> Mono??

Hammurabi is comming to defend Bear town for us :) C2 Sword already there, Xbow and axe on the way.

We cannot put of Currency (much) longer either :( however it pains me to say it... we may just have to self research it :(

I will play around with the save see what we can do and will plan to play to Education + a turn maybe 2 at 0% to build some cash for the next tech(s).
 
OK, turnset played. Certainly could have gone better, mostly due to factors beyond my control.

Without having looked at the save, this doesn't sound that bad ;)

We knew the barbs would come ... that they already have Longbows now is a bit a pain, but should be handleable.

The Prophet of course is a pain. Settle him in LM for some more hammers and gold, or keep him for a 1st Golden Age when building the Unis?


haphazard1 said:
Paper completed. I should have waiting on the minor trades, and gotten world maps from all the AIs.
[...]
Gift Priesthood, Mono to Stalin

Maps in that trade?


haphazard1 said:
Our lighthouse in CiB is sabotaged! :( All hammers are lost.

Hammi!!! :mad:


haphazard1 said:
Hammi has Monarchy and will trade! :woohoo:

After some consideration, I hold off on trading. No city will need the happiness within the next few turns, so we can get to our GP first and then trade. I do not want anarchy right now, as we have a worker due next turn.

Ahem, what would you have traded it for?

I want that tech from another AI!


haphazard1 said:
I also set JH to produce a mace, rather than the settler I had planned. Will finish in one turn, thankfully. We need tougher units!

:goodjob:

Guess we need a few of those!


The trick of the war VS Hammi is going to be ...
early enough to have him weak
late enough not to cost us to much in tech development
early enough to 'fit in' the para's
late enough to get the Uni's up
early enough to allow for Obs/Labs to be build.

On this, we agree; sounds easy :mischief:


KaleLambiek said:
Yes, I think we need to get some "love" going around to get over the "monopolo-me-no-trade" thing as well as long lasting peace. At this stage of the game you cannot be friends with everyone and its better to love a few than to be cauotious with all IMHO.

I was rarely (never?) friend with everybody. Well, maybe late in the game when the others were destroyed ...


KaleLambiek said:
Well possibly both... by running multiple specialists Priest/GM/GS/Engeneer/Artist we mix up the gen-pool to favour that which we want. MoM you dont as much see as a GA extender, but a GP replacement.
Consider this, 18 turns of GA, you can use 3 GPs for that (2 times 9 turns) or 6 GPs (3 times 6 turns)

OK, sounds good :)

As I said, I am OK with still trying for MoM as long as it doesn't interfere with Education, Universities or Oxford.

Especially as the converted gold, should we fail, can be used to keep the slider high ;)


KaleLambiek said:
36 turns of GA you can use 10 GPs (4*9) or 21GPs .... (is that even possible?)

Well, not by the time we'll have won this game, I hope :p


KaleLambiek said:
I agree its doubtfull Shaka or Stalin are going to be real contributers...

I still hope to get the military techs from them; even the ones we won't necessarily need, like Military Tradition or Military Science, to keep our Power higher.
Every tech we get from is good, even if it aren't many.


KaleLambiek said:
I still have to consider MoM though... its usefull but usefull enough?

Do you have doubts yourself, now? :confused:
 
Okay, MoM is not a priority with the barb issue, and Hammi sabotaging us.

We need to use our prophet for a Golden Age, time w/civic change (adopt confusion? I am worried about hammi)
 
On the map trades, as I said, I forgot until the minor techs had already been traded. :hammer2: Sorry. :(

We traded CoL to Hammi (and gifted it to Joao) as part of the "boost overall AI tech rate" plan. That is also why I gave all the minor techs to Shaka, Stalin, etc. Might as well get what we can, and we do need the lesser-teching AIs to get some techs so that HC will trade. I hope that Construction will be available next turn -- the third AI just got it this last turn. If it is, we could then trade that to Hammi for Monarchy.

Or we could research Currency and trade it for Monarchy, if we do not want to give Hammi CS. CS might be worth it, though, as Hammi will adopt Bur (his favored civic) and start giving us diplo bonus.

On the prophet, I think either settle in LM (for cash and some useful base hammers there) or trigger a golden age so we can switch to HR (and maybe OR?) plus Confu without anarchy. If we do not want to run Confu, then settling is probably better long-term. HR should be only 1 turn anarchy, and the boost to LM would be nice.

Island Town is running 2 scientists so we can get a future GS; this seemed more important than working the fur tile.

The preserve for CiB is where it is because we do not know if forest can spread on ice, but it can definitely spread on grass. Another preserve for LM would be useful, and the preserves for CiB may never spread any forest there.
 
Not sure where to go from here. Obviously finish Education and Libs/Uni's everywhere. I would suggest Currency after Edu. Hopefully by then someone other than Hammi will have Monarchy which we can trade for. At least I was right about the trading monopoly tech for Monarchy. :) I then think we should go gunpowder/rifling. Clear Ham off our land and then head towards Astro.

I think we will just have to suffer the barbs in Bear Town for quite a while and carry on rexing the rest of our land. With a few units there it will be safe, just won't be able to improve it.

Note Joao is in wheeoh but I expect that he is going to attack a barb city somewhere. I would be very surprised if he was attacking us but keep an eye out for a Portugese stack heading our way just in case. Keep an eye on Ham as well for this. We'll probably be ok but can't guarantee he won't attack us at some point.

Tech trades. Not sure about gifting all the little techs to Stalin/Shaka. We could have sold them when currency came in. Something to keep in mind for the future.

I would settle the Prophet in JH. I think its to early for a golden age and with 1 turn of anarchy for changing civics not worth it.

Adopt conf? Not worth it imho. If we are going to try and get some tech trades from the other continent adopting a religion will annoy them although it would help with Ham. Saying that, I think we should bulb philo with the next GS. We can use that for trade purposes and when we actually have a GAge change to pacifism and adopt conf and run lots of scientists in conf cities i.e LM and hopefully get a few more GPs from that.

I'd give up on the MoM let HC build it and then when someone else gets Calender we can trade for it.

Other than that :goodjob: on the turnset haphazard1.
 
Agreed on Island Town and the scientists, next GP must be a GS. Damn that confusion shrine. It was a gamble and the odds were really good! Darn you RNG God!

I prefer to use the Prophet to trigger a GA. Note that we should change our civics, then trigger the golden age which will pull us right back out of anarchy. plus allow us to change civics again before the GA expires (4 turns we are not able to, so change before the trigger). This is QUICK speed, so 1 turn means alot more than 1 turn on normal or epic.

CS makes sense if Hammi adopts Bur and shares it with us. You know I'm worried about Hammi (moreso than idiotic black shirt barb ninjas)

(Note: Black shirt ninjas always attack the good guy 1 on 1, and that's kinda how barbs are. Stupid)

And also, after Edu, we should tech to rifling, get paras, and kill Atlantis and Hammi. Seriously.
 
Joao has enough on his hands? :eek: I was checking Hammi regularly, but not Joao. I do not think this can apply against barbs, so Joao is coming for either Hammi or us. And since we are far weaker than Hammi, and he has to go through us to reach Hammi...probably we are the target. :(

This is not good news for a civ we had planned to have as a friend. If Joao declares, though, there is no lasting penalty once peace can be negotiated. We will need to reinforce our cities, though.

On the barbs, do not dismiss them too lightly. There are two galleys near Atlantis now, so we could get stacks of four units dropped on our shores. And many of the LBs were Combat 3 -- pretty tough opponents for what we have available. There were a few axes and spears with Combat or City Raider promos, but they should die messily against our xbows. But 3 or 4 combat-promoted LBs is a pretty serious threat at this stage. We may want a second zep to help airstrike the top barb units; with their free Medic I promos they will all heal fast.

On the prophet, I am skeptical of a golden age to save only 1 turn of anarchy. If we want to change multiple civics and maybe adopt Confu, then it would be worth it to avoid several turns of anarchy. But for only 1 turn for HR I would save the prophet and settle him.
 
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