SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[DJMGator13]

I just checked out the progress page and Misfits have posted a turn 48 save. They took a spike in culture around turn 41 or 42 so I doubt we are alone with the Oracle build. So far we are the only 2 teams to post saves past turn 40.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for your good work, Fred. Enjoy Paris.

useful techs: Alphabet (To convert hammers to science? Fred, do you know if Portuguese archer headed north?) , Metal Casting, CoL, Currency, Mathematics, Iron Working. Would opt for Math first.

useful wonders: Pyramids (Expensive without stone.), Hanging Gardens (an excellent way of transferring hammers from a single city to many cities, via the whip -- Please explain.), MoM

One More cities, then More workers, more improvements, more scouting ((including the eastern island for a city site)

Airship (deserves its own category-the sooner we get more info, the sooner we start making the most optimal decisions) Yes, indeed. Suggest we switch from Phalanx to airship in Athens immediately to get overflow and chop.

More cash to keep research rate high

Blocking off land Not sure about this until we know more of the map. There appears to be no great hurry, though only useful iron might be near Ham. Sometimes the AI conveniently builds cities for you.

Make Hamm like us.

Gator's city site between clams and cows has sites for only 2 waterwheels; but, after it expands, it should give us galley access to Barbtown. Airship should tell us how desirable such early access would be.

 

[Grover22]

Good job, Fred.

Is there a list of dos and don'ts for looking at our official saves?

I've only downloaded SCT's practice saves so far, because I've been afraid of getting us disqualified somehow if I screw up. That still seems like the safest course to me. I imagine that the practice saves become harder and harder to mock up as we get further into the game, though. Will there come a point when they stop being produced?

G22

 

[PaulisKhan]

useful wonders: Hanging Gardens (an excellent way of transferring hammers from a single city to many cities, via the whip

-- Please explain

Setting aside the health benefits and the GE points we need (which shouldn't be ignored) it gives us 1 pop in each of our cities and costs 200 hammers on quick.

A whip is worth 20 hammers. If we ignore multipliers of any kind, with 10 cities we'd get our hammer investment back through judicious whips, but redistributed to some of our hammer poor cities.
With multipliers factored in you need fewer cities to get the hammer investment back.
More cities and the WW is actually a net gain in hammers (stone would be super helpful though).
It's the closest thing to a free wonder there is.

That said, we DO need GE points from somewhere and health is an issue later on in the game when we need big cities (and we won't be running environmentalism or have many forest preserves).

It's certainly not a MUST HAVE wonder but I wanted to get a discussion going about which wonders will benefit us more than investing those hammers elsewhere.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Tried to update the test game by playing on from the old test. It doesn't match exactly, but maybe it's still of some help?

Test game

 

[Frederiksberg]

Thanks for your good work, Fred. Enjoy Paris.

Thanks. I was there many years ago on inter rail (a cheap way to travel by train for young people, back packers) and I guess that many things have changed. Will be going by car this time.

Fred, do you know if Portuguese archer headed north?

No.

Yes, indeed. Suggest we switch from Phalanx to airship in Athens immediately to get overflow and chop.

I don't think we can afford to postpone the Phalanx. He is needed as an escort for the settler coming out in Piraeus next turn. Also, I don't think we are in a hurry to build the airship. We have a scout that can map Portuguese territory and 2 warriors that can take a look at the area around Babylon. So the only extra information we get from the airship is what the islands to the east look like including the barb island. The airship costs more than both granary and library so I would suggest we get these improvements done first before investing so many hammers in scouting a few islands.

Note, that we should wait 5 turns before using the whip again in Athens to avoid stacking of unhappiness.

One More cities, then More workers, more improvements

We clearly need more workers and also another phalanx before the next settler. I think we have to keep REXing for a while longer. Capturing Babylonian cities is not going to be easy and perhaps not very hammer efficient either (because we need many units per captured city). We probably need maces to efficiently defeat the bowman (no horses in sight). The main obstacle to REX is the lack of city sites with multiple river tiles and/or hills.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Is there a list of dos and don'ts for looking at our official saves?

One rule: You must not do any irreversible action with the real save. Examples of irreversible actions:

• Moving a unit - will reveal info and cannot be undone within the same turn.
• Making a deal with the AI
• Switching civics

It's OK to call up an AI and negotiate a deal, but you can't offer them a deal. What I normally do is to set up a deal and then ask the AI what would make this deal work. Then the AI will make a counter offer and you gain information without making any deals. It's also allowed to change builds in cities to see how long it will take if we switch to building something else. And of course, you can view city screens and all other info screens as much as you like.

 

[PaulisKhan]

We probably need maces to efficiently defeat the bowman (no horses in sight). The main obstacle to REX is the lack of city sites with multiple river tiles and/or hills.

Shannon made a strong case for war with a mix of paratroopers and airships. We are going to beat the AI to rifling by a looooong way and should capture every city incredibly quickly and with virtually no losses.

I think in the meantime that means rexing as much as we can peacefully without damaging the economy too badly.

The downside I see to this is that the AI isn't that great at developing cottages so we'll want control over a lot of land throughout the game in order to do it ourselves properly.

 

[Grover22]

One rule: You must not do any irreversible action with the real save. Examples of irreversible actions:

• Moving a unit - will reveal info and cannot be undone within the same turn.
• Making a deal with the AI
• Switching civics

By default, our saves are done at the end of a turn when our units have used their moves, right? So it's harder to accidentally move a unit? I'd have to wake a sleeping (healing, fortified, sentrified, blockading,...) unit and then move him or otherwise find a unit with moves left, and then accidentally make a move? That seems easy enough to avoid.

I think I could avoid offering a deal to the AI.

I think I could avoid switching civics.

The irreversible action that seems most dangerous to me is simply hitting enter to end a turn.

If any irreversible action is done accidentally, I'd have to make a new save and upload it, to avoid us being disqualified, right?

G22

 

[leif erikson]

By default, our saves are done at the end of a turn when our units have used their moves, right? So it's harder to accidentally move a unit? I'd have to wake a sleeping (healing, fortified, sentrified, blockading,...) unit and then move him or otherwise find a unit with moves left, and then accidentally make a move? That seems easy enough to avoid.

As we move along in the game, there will be units left to move. There are situations in which the play could go in any number of directions. The player completing the turn set may leave whole stacks unmoved so that the team can decide the future objective. What I'm saying is that there is no default.

The irreversible action that seems most dangerous to me is simply hitting enter to end a turn.

Yes, beware the RED button!

If any irreversible action is done accidentally, I'd have to make a new save and upload it, to avoid us being disqualified, right?

After you save, immediately post what you've done and then post the save as an attachment to this thread. We can decide what to do with it from there. Understand that we have a one turn penalty if this happens as all unmoved units lose their turn.

 

[leif erikson]

I don't think we can afford to postpone the Phalanx. He is needed as an escort for the settler coming out in Piraeus next turn. Also, I don't think we are in a hurry to build the airship. We have a scout that can map Portuguese territory and 2 warriors that can take a look at the area around Babylon. So the only extra information we get from the airship is what the islands to the east look like including the barb island. The airship costs more than both granary and library so I would suggest we get these improvements done first before investing so many hammers in scouting a few islands.

As badly as I think we need an Airship, I agree that the settler needs to be escorted. The question though is to where? If we are not sure where the next best place to settle is, then the Airship will provide info we need. It will also reveal barbs over a large are so that we may find that sending an unescorted settler would be "safe".

I think the info gained by looking east is quite important. It may tell us to get Sailing now and start our REX to the east? City site to the west are not so hot and south provides several possibilities it seems. I don't know and will not know until we have a look to the east?

We clearly need more workers and also another phalanx before the next settler. I think we have to keep REXing for a while longer. Capturing Babylonian cities is not going to be easy and perhaps not very hammer efficient either (because we need many units per captured city). We probably need maces to efficiently defeat the bowman (no horses in sight). The main obstacle to REX is the lack of city sites with multiple river tiles and/or hills.

With Babylon being a bit of a problem, east may provide some solutions? Also, I would like to know fairly soon where Iron is?

What are our next tech priorities? If we are planning to REX, and can defend ourselves, then it seems to me a race for Education is in order next?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Badly as I think we need an Airship, I agree that the settler needs to be escorted. The question though is to where? If we are not sure where the next best place to settle is, then the Airship will provide info we need. It will also reveal barbs over a large are so that we may find that sending an unescorted settler would be "safe".

There are plenty of barbs out there so sending an unescorted settler would be suicide.

I think the info gained by looking east is quite important. It may tell us to get Sailing now and start our REX to the east? City site to the west are not so hot and south provides several possibilities it seems. I don't know and will not know until we have a look to the east?

I think we must settle our next city ASAP, waiting for sailing and a galley does not appeal to me at all. I don't disagree that info from scouting east would be useful. Right now I think that we should proceed with building phalanx and library in Athens, granary and library in Piraeus and granary in Delphi perhaps with an extra worker in there somewhere. Selecting Math as next tech also seem like a good choice to get more hammers from our chops. I don't think it's likely that any info we get from scouting with the airship will change this so I would rather get this done and then build the airship when we are closer to deciding if we should expand east by settling or by capturing the barb city (or maybe not at all).

 

[Frederiksberg]

Shannon made a strong case for war with a mix of paratroopers and airships. We are going to beat the AI to rifling by a looooong way and should capture every city incredibly quickly and with virtually no losses.

Yes, I agree. If, however, scouting shows that Babylonian lands are very attractive it might still be worth considering an earlier attack. Also depends on what we find to the east.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, I agree. If, however, scouting shows that Babylonian lands are very attractive it might still be worth considering an earlier attack. Also depends on what we find to the east.

If Babylonian lands are indeed rich, we might consider our age old tactic of keeping them as close to the stone age as possible by disrupting their development and then taking them out when we're ready. Not sure how much War Weariness we will encounter at this game speed doing this, but it is something to consider.

On the Airship, I am not advocating that we delay settling new cities to wait to see if there are better spots. What I am saying is that it would be nice to know where to go to settle the better locations provided us by the map maker. In order to plan, sooner is better than later. I can't see wasting a lot of resources in building Settlers and Escorts without having some idea of what their optimal use might be?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Setting aside the health benefits and the GE points we need (which shouldn't be ignored) it gives us 1 pop in each of our cities and costs 200 hammers on quick. It's certainly not a MUST HAVE wonder but I wanted to get a discussion going about which wonders will benefit us more than investing those hammers elsewhere.

Understood. Don't you think the cost includes cost of aqueduct?

 

[Cactus Pete]

There are plenty of barbs out there so sending an unescorted settler would be suicide. So many that a single phalanx might be insufficient?

I think we must settle our next city ASAP, waiting for sailing and a galley does not appeal to me at all. What city site appeals to you? I don't disagree that info from scouting east would be useful. Right now I think that we should proceed with building phalanx and library in Athens, granary and library in Piraeus and granary in Delphi perhaps with an extra worker in there somewhere. Selecting Math as next tech also seem like a good choice to get more hammers from our chops. I don't think it's likely that any info we get from scouting with the airship will change this so I would rather get this done and then build the airship when we are closer to deciding if we should expand east by settling or by capturing the barb city (or maybe not at all).

If the game hadn't been altered to produce some strange barb units, I'd have few reservation about delaying the airship, but the unpredictability argues for getting the airship built quickly. Don't see this as a clear choice at all.

 

[Frederiksberg]

So many that a single phalanx might be insufficient?

No, but I think we need the one we already have to stay near Delphi and Athens to handle barbs there. The one coming next turn in Athens can then be used to escort the settler.

What city site appeals to you?

I haven't really looked into that. Perhaps the site to the west where we see a river and some hills. We should know more when the warrior steps onto the hill. The site near the river to the south is another choice allthough we won't be able to defend the fishing nets for a long time (due to the promoted barb galleys).

If the game hadn't been altered to produce some strange barb units, I'd have few reservation about delaying the airship, but the unpredictability argues for getting the airship built quickly. Don't see this as a clear choice at all.

The question is: What could we possibly see 8 tiles west from Athens that would induce us to skip garanary and library in Athens+Piraeus? I can hardly imagine what that would be. Even if there is a city we want to capture soon building a granary in Piraeus should still be on the menu to make whipping twice as efficient. The libraries are cheap (4 turn build in Athens) and we must have one in Piraeus soon to avoid the GProphet. My conclusion is that we are better off building these improvements ASAP so that we double growth and get the 25% extra beakers sooner rather than later.

I'm off to bed and leaving early tomorrow. Will be back next Sunday. Good luck with the turn set to PaulisKhan

 

[PaulisKhan]

Understood. Don't you think the cost includes cost of aqueduct?

This is true, while I often build aqueducts in my own HoF games it is usually at a later date when hammers are at less of a premium and health is proving problematic. That said, I think we're going to want to grow our capital to pop20 under hereditary rule and health WILL be a problem.

Which brings me to my next point, the case for HR and how it affects our tech plan in the short-term: Currently we're in the mindset that we'll grow our capital on the back of forest preserve happiness.
After seeing more of the map I no longer believe this is the best course of action.
We do not have a vast expanse of grassland on which to grow cottages, the best cottaging area remains our capitals BFC.
The land really fixes our strategy for us.
Max cottage spam of capital with Academy+Oxford+bureau multipliers.
To do this we're going to have to chop down our forests, if we chop down our forests we need happiness, we have no happiness resources.
HR is the best source of happiness available to us, we also have 4(?) wine available to be improved. The wine is extra happiness and also gives us something to trade/gift to the AI for relationship bonuses.
Alternatively we can access HR from the pyramids, which are also handy for the GE points that we need.
To minimise any turns of revolutionary anarchy we should look at adopting OR too, the hammer multiplier on buildings and wonders is significant in its own right. To make OR useful we want a religion. Confucionism is our safest shot and provides us the obvious benefits of courthouses and also enables castes should we want them.

What this boils down to for the short term:
tech CoL+Monarchy
or
tech CoL+build Mids

With those in hand we spread confuc to our neighbours and grow our capital to max pop asap and start working those cottages.

An important rule of space race games: Never tech something the AI can tech for you.
Math, Ironworking, Sailing, Monotheism are all techs that a monarch AI can reliably tech in an acceptable timeframe.
To ensure that they are willing to trade these techs we want them to like us, which again makes the case for confuc a strong one.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No, but I think we need the one we already have to stay near Delphi and Athens to handle barbs there. The one coming next turn in Athens can then be used to escort the settler. Let's also consider sending the one in Delphi with the settler and building a partial phalanx there that can be rushed if needed (otherwise continue with the granary). With an airship, we should have considerable advance notice of barbs (perhaps be able to minimize the likelihood of their appearance).

I haven't really looked into that. Perhaps the site to the west where we see a river and some hills. We should know more when the warrior steps onto the hill. The site near the river to the south is another choice allthough we won't be able to defend the fishing nets for a long time (due to the promoted barb galleys). Agree that it's not obvious -- makes Iron Working more attractive.

The question is: What could we possibly see 8 tiles west from Athens (Delphi) that would induce us to skip garanary and library in Athens+Piraeus? I can hardly imagine what that would be. Dangerous and/or numerous barb units has occurred to me.Even if there is a city we want to capture soon (more interested in a city site on the eastern island) building a granary in Piraeus should still be on the menu to make whipping twice as efficient. The libraries are cheap (4 turn build in Athens) and we must have one in Piraeus soon to avoid the GProphet. My conclusion is that we are better off building these improvements ASAP so that we double growth and get the 25% extra beakers sooner rather than later. :

Good arguement. Hard to assess the risk we run by remaining ignorant of the map.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Which brings me to my next point, the case for HR and how it affects our tech plan in the short-term: Currently we're in the mindset that we'll grow our capital on the back of forest preserve happiness.
After seeing more of the map I no longer believe this is the best course of action.
We do not have a vast expanse of grassland on which to grow cottages, the best cottaging area remains our capitals BFC.
The land really fixes our strategy for us.
Max cottage spam of capital with Academy+Oxford+bureau multipliers.
To do this we're going to have to chop down our forests, if we chop down our forests we need happiness, we have no happiness resources.
HR is the best source of happiness available to us, we also have 4(?) wine available to be improved. The wine is extra happiness and also gives us something to trade/gift to the AI for relationship bonuses.
Alternatively we can access HR from the pyramids, which are also handy for the GE points that we need.
To minimise any turns of revolutionary anarchy we should look at adopting OR too, the hammer multiplier on buildings and wonders is significant in its own right. To make OR useful we want a religion. Confucionism is our safest shot and provides us the obvious benefits of courthouses and also enables castes should we want them. So you're suggesting we don't build any more forest preserves and wait for COL and then Monarchy to grow?

What this boils down to for the short term:
tech CoL+Monarchy
or
tech CoL+build Mids Against this.

With those in hand we spread confuc to our neighbours and grow our capital to max pop asap and start working those cottages.

An important rule of space race games: Never tech something the AI can tech for you.
Math, Ironworking, Sailing, Monotheism are all techs that a monarch AI can reliably tech in an acceptable timeframe.
To ensure that they are willing to trade these techs we want them to like us, which again makes the case for confuc a strong one.

Math is a relatively cheap tech, and it's seems problematic whether the AI will be willing to trade it to us anytime soon. Agree with your argument that Monarchy and HR are probably the route to growth on this map (as we now know it) and that CoL works for both happiness and friendliness, but still like to have Math before we start chopping for additional improvements and to speed buildings.