SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

Yes, but time is not our ally. We are in a race for space, tech development is our primary goal? I'm no space expert, but it would seem to me that the faster we meet the other civs, the more trading opportunities we may have, and may even be able to broker techs.

We are not the only ones that have Airships available. If our friendly AI's should happen to fly around, and I do not know how likely that is, and happen to acquire Alphabet, then they may trade most of the techs around before we get into the game? Seems we should be prioritizing meeting the other civs and getting our tech trade into gear? Perhaps our succession game team opponents, who show more power than we do, have already met more civs and are trading?

We don't need to worry about not having enough trade bait to get techs from whomever we meet. If it comes down to it, we can always trade Electricity without giving the AI a military advantage. (And the AI is unlikely to broker Electricity since it is worth so many beakers.) But I would like to see another airship fairly soon - one in Babylon and one in Portugal. We don't need many more phalanx to take control of the continent.

 

[leif erikson]

I think we can do a lot of recon with the one airship we already have and it's not clear to me that we will get significant benefit from building another immediately. It looks like there is only little unexplored land near Portuguese territory so the areas west of Hammurabi is currently our best bet of finding more land with other AIs. If there are only 3 Civ's on our continent the question is if the sea separating us from other continents can be crossed by an airship. We should be able to investigate this quite soon with the airship we have if we rebase to Sparta, recon one of Hammy's cities, rebase to this city and repeat recon - possibly across ocean if Hammy is close to the western edge of our continent. So in 4 turns we may already be more informed.

Perhaps we can, but there is something to the east as well. Actually, it looks like more Barbs.
The red lines follow coasts that I think I see.

We know there is another continent on the other side of Atlantis. And we know we can get to it via the eastern island(?). Is it not worth another Airship to check this and Joao out. For all we know there is another large body of land to the east of Joao?

 

[ShannonCT]

I don't see any indication that the eastern island connects to those other landmasses.

 

[Frederiksberg]

What's the goal with Piraeus? To grow it into a GP farm? Since we aren't in HR or CS yet, does Piraeus have a reason to grow right now? Maybe we should switch to workers/settlers there and whip the granary when we're ready to do something with more population. It doesn't make sense to whip a granary and then build settlers/workers.

The idea with having a granary in Piraeus is to increase the efficiency of the whip. With a granary it's much more efficient to whip workers/settlers compared to building them since we get approx 2 hammers per food (20 hammers per pop and ~10 food to regrow). So just building workers/settlers with no use of the whip seems suboptimal to me - at least when it comes to hammers. The timing is also good for whipping the granary - we can whip it in T57 for two pop with 19 hammers of overflow and immediate regrowth.

Is it not worth another Airship to check this and Joao out. For all we know there is another large body of land to the east of Joao?

If we didn't have an urgent need for workers and settlers I would gladly support building an air ship. What I'm saying is that we can do a lot of scouting with the one we have and there are probably only a few coastal cities from which it makes any sense to scout right now. I don't think it will take much more than 10 turns to recon all of Babylon and Portugal including some recon runs over the ocean and I think this is fast enough given that we need workers and settlers as bad as we do.

 

[leif erikson]

You guys may be right about Airships and the continent, looks like rrau will be busy moving that Airship around.

I just noticed something else interesting. If you look at Atlantis, the city population is in a star, as any normal capital would have. Do you suppose that the city borders we see to the east are part of Atlantis' civilization?

I wonder how we can get Atlantis to yield us its secrets? Just read the Wiki on Atlantis, our Atlantis seems to fit the description, a city on a island (mountain?) near the middle of the sea. Any hints, or more hot air?

Does that mean anything important for us?

 

[PaulisKhan]

I'm trying to decide what buildings might be capturable to make it worthwhile to us.

If we captured it, and lost the dyke, then all the settled GG's in the world would mean nothing because we'd never be able to build any units. But then if it also came with a dozen settled great scientists...

Now if the defenders stay as archers once we get Paratroopers, then I say go for it.
A couple of airship strikes and we'd clean it up with virtually no losses, regardless of promos and attack penalties.
However if they upgrade to longbows... then it gets expensive...

-edit- well if the legend is anything to go by, we may as well ignore it because it's past due to sink into the sea

 

[PaulisKhan]

Also, I've been toying with an idea.

We need to decide now, do we commit to waiting out the AI and let them tech alphabet?

If we don't then we should get alpha now, before monarchy.
We can't get optimum use from monarchy until we make the civics switch, which we want to do with several other civics switches simultaneously so it's probably not going to happen immediately after we tech monarchy anyway.
We can use these 4 turns (max) of additional non growth in Athen to spit out the many settlers we need in the meantime, so it's definitely not wasted turns.

Once alpha is in, we'd have a much clearer picture of where we are with regarded to Monotheism and mathematics as well.
Doing this means acknowledging that our CoL was premature (which won't really hurt us at all unless we missed out on working an important iron tile, or we would have built lighthouses/galleys in the meantime (unlikely)) but we shouldn't use that as an excuse to not follow the optimal path now, whatever we decide it to be.


Thoughts?

The alternative is that we blast through Monarchy->Math->CS and hope for the AI to hurry up with the alpha.

also: we want to consider getting electricty to all AI asap in order to maximise their tech rate (which will improve our own-especially through the feud-guilds-banking line which we will hopefully be able to trade for)
It can be hard to break out of the "competing with the AI" mindset. I still struggle to do it and I play HoF almost exclusively.

 

[leif erikson]

I like your idea!

We need to decide now, do we commit to waiting out the AI and let them tech alphabet?

If we don't then we should get alpha now, before monarchy.
We can't get optimum use from monarchy until we make the civics switch, which we want to do with several other civics switches simultaneously so it's probably not going to happen immediately after we tech monarchy anyway.

Once we get Monarchy, we should switch civics in order to grow our cities.

We can use these 4 turns (max) of additional non growth in Athen to spit out the many settlers we need in the meantime, so it's definitely not wasted turns.

This is a good reason to research Alphabet as we can't grow while we produce Workers and Settlers.

Once alpha is in, we'd have a much clearer picture of where we are with regarded to Monotheism and mathematics as well.

Agreed. It would be nice to find some other civs as well.

Doing this means acknowledging that our CoL was premature (which won't really hurt us at all unless we missed out on working an important iron tile, or we would have built lighthouses/galleys in the meantime (unlikely)) but we shouldn't use that as an excuse to not follow the optimal path now, whatever we decide it to be.

CoL's got us Confucianism, so I would not consider it premature.

also: we want to consider getting electricty to all AI asap in order to maximise their tech rate (which will improve our own-especially through the feud-guilds-banking line which we will hopefully be able to trade for)

Agreed. Again, need to find some other civs soonest.

It can be hard to break out of the "competing with the AI" mindset. I still struggle to do it and I play HoF almost exclusively.

We're helping you, aren't we?

 

[PaulisKhan]

I'll let Rrrau post their plan before muddying things even more but I'm also trying to figure out the best time to tech optics (I'm thinking immediately after Edu, but a case could be made for before Edu if doing so will generate more beakers in future tech trades by getting electricity to the AI sooner than a delayed Oxford will cost us in our own research)

Anyway, looking forward to seeing Rrrau's plan. I'm already picking up on several mistakes in my own turnset though >.<
I should have built Pyraeus forest preserve with one worker instead of two (because building the worker there delayed growth enough for it to be finished in time anyway) and used the other to speed up the watermill for athens so it didn't have to work a forest preserve for a couple of turns =/
That's like... 4 hammers and 5 beakers lost forever

 

[ShannonCT]

So it seems there are two competing ideas out there:

Fred is suggesting building settlers and workers in Piraeus and Athens by growing those cities and then whipping them, to take advantage of the hammer efficiency. If we use this strategy, it seems to me that we would want Monarchy now, so that the increased population is working tiles before it's whipped (and so that population will grow faster).

PK is suggesting we build settlers and workers the normal way, causing Piraeus and Athens to stagnate while we research Alpha. In this case, there is no hurry for Monarchy, because the city growth will be slowed. And in this case, we could switch to Organized Religion at the same time as Hereditary Rule if we can trade for Monotheism.

So how much do we gain from Fred's whipping plan? How much do we gain by PK's earlier switch to OR? How much could we gain from other traded techs?

 

[PaulisKhan]

The old whipping strategies aren't as helpful here due to our powerful tile improvements, though there are a couple of cities which we will be able to whip heavily.

It's roughly a 1:2 food:hammer conversion ratio for the whip at low pop, but I think we're beating that if we're just working a windmill or a watermill or a mined resource.
So basically we shouldn't be whipping away pop that is working one of those tiles. Every turn that we don't work one of those tiles is costing us 3-4 commerce and a bunch of hammers.
Also, we want to be growing cottages around our capital as quickly as possible so we want to avoid whipping there.
Due to the shortage of food tiles, Pyreaus I think is the only city that can whip efficiently (The fish/rice(?) coastal city to the south will also be whip worthy when we get it built).
Thebes could probably 2 pop whip a couple of workers though at pop 4, as long as it doesn't stop working the sheep and the plainshill windmill.


I'm not an expert on the whip by any means though, and I can be convinced of anything by a healthy dose of math.

 

[Frederiksberg]

OK, I will try to explain how whipping can generate extra hammers:

Our basic assumption is that at turn T we want to produce a settler (or worker). I will also assume that we are 1 below the happy cap.

Scenario 1, building the worker/settler. In this scenario the city is stagnant at it's present pop level, N, while building. Food is converted to hammers at a 1:1 ratio.

Scenario 2, whipping the worker/settler. In this scenario the city is growing while building something else like military units (or beakers/gold when we reach Alphabet/Currency). Before the city grows 2nd time some hammers are put into the worker settler so that he can be whipped for two pop. Then the city grows into unhappiness and is immediately whipped thus converting the ~20 food into 40 hammers. We are now back to where we started in terms of pop (size N) but we have gained 20 hammers + any extra hammers/gold during the time we were at size (N+1) thus working an extra (possibly unimproved) tile.

As you can see the whipping scheme works best if we have at least one more happy face than required by the pop size and I guess that's why SCT wants to combine it with HR.

Here is an article on whipping - the section about whipping the first worker is somewhat similar to my explanation.

The whip

 

[leif erikson]

Scenario 2, whipping the worker/settler. In this scenario the city is growing while building something else like military units (or beakers/gold when we reach Alphabet/Currency). Before the city grows 2nd time some hammers are put into the worker settler so that he can be whipped for two pop. Then the city grows into unhappiness and is immediately whipped thus converting the ~20 food into 40 hammers. We are now back to where we started in terms of pop (size N) but we have gained 20 hammers + any extra hammers/gold during the time we were at size (N+1) thus working an extra (possibly unimproved) tile.

As you can see the whipping scheme works best if we have at least one more happy face than required by the pop size and I guess that's why SCT wants to combine it with HR.

We are building another Forest Preserve west of Athens. Will this not provide the 1 extra happy face mentioned above? If so, can we not research Alphabet, then HR, and whip those workers and settlers?

 

[rrau]

Sorry, I wasn't able to get to the plan. Borrowing a computer to post this. I had to do a restore down to the factory conditions on my computer. And I'm leaving town now. Be back Monday. If someone could swap, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm up next, but, until the week of the 26th, my time is limited. That's when I'd prefer to play, but I can take it now if it doesn't work well for someone else.

Can we determine (from knowledge of game mechanics or from practice games -- hopefully ones already played) what techs both the known AIs will likely have on any projected date for completing Alpha?

Regarding whipping vs. normal production. Don't think Fred has factored in the extra tech from earlier academy in Athens if we don't whip in Pyreaus.

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm up next, but, until the week of the 26th, my time is limited. That's when I'd prefer to play, but I can take it now if it doesn't work well for someone else.

Maybe leif should step in.

Can we determine (from knowledge of game mechanics or from practice games -- hopefully ones already played) what techs both the known AIs will likely have on any projected date for completing Alpha?

I'll try to get back to you on that.

Regarding whipping vs. normal production. Don't think Fred has factored in the extra tech from earlier academy in Athens if we don't whip in Pyreaus.

Athens already has an academy.


I did some calculations on whipping a settler in Athens vs. building it:

If we build a settler in Athens immediately after the worker, and swap a corn farm for a windmill with Piraeus for 2 turns, we can have a settler ready to go on T59 with 1 hammer overflow. On T60, Athens could grow to Pop8.

If we put the worker overflow into a settler next turn, swap corn for windmill with Piraeus for 3 turns, grow to Pop8 on T58 and Pop9 of T59, and then whip on T59, we can have a settler ready to go on T60. We would be at Pop7 on T60, compared to Pop8 with the other strategy, or in other words, 9 food behind. If we combined this strategy with fast Monarchy, we would catch up to the other Athens on T61. We would net 29 free hammers for building units. The settler would be one turn later.

In Piraeus, if we build a worker now, it will be ready on T59. If we whip the granary on T55 and the worker on T61, it will be ready on T62. The hammers gained for other things (airship?) probably make it worth it if we can put up with the 3 turn delay to the worker and the lost GPPs.

Instead of Delphi whipping a library (worth only 1.75 beakers per turn now), maybe it should grow for 2 turns, then build a worker for 2 turns and whip that. We could save the library build to implement the whip/chop overflow after Math.

 

[leif erikson]

Maybe leif should step in.

This could be a bit difficult for me. I have to work in RL all weekend and I need to get the saves put together for WOTM23, a lot of WB work to do.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I did some calculations on whipping a settler in Athens vs. building it:

If we build a settler in Athens immediately after the worker, and swap a corn farm for a windmill with Piraeus for 2 turns, we can have a settler ready to go on T59 with 1 hammer overflow. On T60, Athens could grow to Pop8.

If we put the worker overflow into a settler next turn, swap corn for windmill with Piraeus for 3 turns, grow to Pop8 on T58 and Pop9 of T59, and then whip on T59, we can have a settler ready to go on T60. We would be at Pop7 on T60, compared to Pop8 with the other strategy, or in other words, 9 food behind. If we combined this strategy with fast Monarchy, we would catch up to the other Athens on T61. We would net 29 free hammers for building units. The settler would be one turn later.

In Piraeus, if we build a worker now, it will be ready on T59. If we whip the granary on T55 and the worker on T61, it will be ready on T62. The hammers gained for other things (airship?) probably make it worth it if we can put up with the 3 turn delay to the worker and the lost GPPs.

Instead of Delphi whipping a library (worth only 1.75 beakers per turn now), maybe it should grow for 2 turns, then build a worker for 2 turns and whip that. We could save the library build to implement the whip/chop overflow after Math.

Nice example of how we can gain hammers. I think it's worth grabbing those extra hammers, remember that 1 hammer equals 1 beaker (at least) because we can build gold/beakers later by setting our cities to produce science or wealth. So if we put hammers into buildings and units now we can use more hammers later for beakers/gold.

I agree that we should postpone the library in Delphi since we need workers more.

I will be in Sweden this weekend and without internet access so no more comment from me for a while .

This could be a bit difficult for me. I have to work in RL all weekend and I need to get the saves put together for WOTM23, a lot of WB work to do.

Maybe G22 would like to step in?

 

[leif erikson]

Maybe G22 would like to step in?

I've PM'ed G22 and offered him a set.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Heck I'll play another!!!