SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[Grover22]

Are there any techs that will help us tech faster besides Plastics?

Hmm. Computer allows the Internet, but I'm doubtful we'd get any necessary techs out of that. It might fill in a few holes earlier in the tree, though.

Radio allows Rock and Roll, which provides an extra happy face, and Christo which lets us switch civics more often. I don't think that either of those is worth the hammers, though. How often are we thinking of switching civics, and how badly will we need the happy face? I can maybe see that with Sushi, the happy face would be more welcome, but if RnR is worth the hammers, maybe we should be building Broadway now for the same reason.

 

[leif erikson]

After Plastics, I don't see anything that is worth going after. It seems to me to be all about maximizing hammers and setting up the empire to produce Wealth, Beakers and Space Ship parts. Once Plastics is in, Rocketry and get Apollo built with some Aluminum in hand.

Seems like we don't have much time to get Factories and a source of power built?

How do we plan to make up the Gold deficit? Can we change some cities to Wealth while building Factories in others? Civics is an interesting dilemma as well. I think we need to remain in Org. Religion for all the improvements we need, although it costs +26 gpt versus Free Religion. Seems like a switch to Free Market is in order with Corporations coming on line, but that mean the loss of 2 Commerce from Windmills and Forest Preserves? That will be a tough one to figure the break even on?
Bureaucracy and Hereditary Rule seems like the best place to stay for now too.

 

[ShannonCT]

The golden age will help a lot. We have many tiles that will get +1 hammer and +1 commerce. If we can produce wealth in some cities before building a factory (to get Plastics sooner), and time the factory build to coincide with completion of 3GD. Factory is +75% hammers with power and +25% without, so we don't lose much by delaying a factory until 3GD.

Unloading Inchon and Pyongsong on Justinian will help cash flow. Can we jump paratroopers from vassal cities?

Enviro may soon become quite costly with multiple corps being spread everywhere. Free Market will reduce corp maintenance by 40% compared to Enviro. When I get a chance to look at the game later, I'll try to calculate the extra commerce from Enviro in a golden age. I'm sure Organized Religion will pay for itself while we're building lots of infrastructure.

 

[leif erikson]

Can we jump paratroopers from vassal cities?

Just tested this and was surprised to learn that you can jump Paratroopers from Vassal cities.

 

[Frederiksberg]

1) Agree we should not found Sushi in Akkad, since we are founding Mining there. We can found Standard Ethanol in Akkad. With Mining Inc execs, bank, market, grocer, and Wall Street to be built in Akkad, we need more hammers there fast. Suggest we build mines/railroads over the two windmills and forested hill, and workshop on the remaining forest. Might as well cash in two forests now. Mining Inc will be bringing in a good number of hammers soon. And the following suggestion will bring in more hammers:

Don't forget that one of the forest preserves must stay because it's also inside Babylons FC. I would suggest to chop down the grassland forest first and build a workshop there. And railroad should come before mine when converting a windmill. I suppose that first build in Akkad should be a Mining Inc executive for Athens that can then take over building some execs. Then continue with bank and Wall Street.

Akkad is working some strange tiles right now and Argos and Ephesus could also need some MM'ing. Maybe go through the cities before playing?

Yes, chop, chop, chop! Then mine and railroad...

Actually mines are in general not as good as windmills - particularly during golden age where the windmill yields 1f2h3g (with Free Market) and the railroaded mine yields 4h. The value of the food is that half a tile extra can be worked so a conservative estimate says that it's worth at least 2h (base). In other words, the windmills is at least 3gpt better than the mine during a GA. As a consequence, mining hills should be the exception (where we need to construct essential building like Wall Street in Akkad), not the rule.

I don't have the game in front of me, but I remember we were at ~25% land right now, and have a 64% domination limit. Considering cities we want to take from Wang, Stalin, and Shaka, would vassalizing Wang and Stalin put us close to 60% land? I don't see Australia worth settling and we can leave Shaka most of Africa.

With the huge force of paratroopers we have now we could probably capture all cities within the next 40 turns. That's why I'm thinking of dom limit. No need to make the game more difficult for ourselves and the gan of a single happy face from vassalizing is not that much. Perhaps we should wait with this decision and see if there are other benefits when we reach the point where we have aquired all the major Korean cities?

Regarding Australia it might be worth at some point to send a couple of paratroopers to take the barb city there. We could then settle on top of the Australian iron and liberate both cities thus immediately securing an extra metal.

I think we should start a 2nd war theatre to the east - either by attacking Shaka or by taking Vandal as a prelude to an attack on Shaka's northern resource cities. Sending all forces to Korea doesn't seem efficient from a logistic point of view.

 

[ShannonCT]

Don't forget that one of the forest preserves must stay because it's also inside Babylons FC. I would suggest to chop down the grassland forest first and build a workshop there. And railroad should come before mine when converting a windmill. I suppose that first build in Akkad should be a Mining Inc executive for Athens that can then take over building some execs. Then continue with bank and Wall Street.

Agree with this.

Akkad is working some strange tiles right now and Argos and Ephesus could also need some MM'ing. Maybe go through the cities before playing?

I will MM each city every turn.

Actually mines are in general not as good as windmills - particularly during golden age where the windmill yields 1f2h3g (with Free Market) and the railroaded mine yields 4h. The value of the food is that half a tile extra can be worked so a conservative estimate says that it's worth at least 2h (base). In other words, the windmills is at least 3gpt better than the mine during a GA. As a consequence, mining hills should be the exception (where we need to construct essential building like Wall Street in Akkad), not the rule.

Agreed. Mines only for Akkad.

Regarding Australia it might be worth at some point to send a couple of paratroopers to take the barb city there. We could then settle on top of the Australian iron and liberate both cities thus immediately securing an extra metal.

OK, we should be able to jump paratroopers from Cuzco and then airlift a settler to the captured barb city.

I think we should start a 2nd war theatre to the east - either by attacking Shaka or by taking Vandal as a prelude to an attack on Shaka's northern resource cities. Sending all forces to Korea doesn't seem efficient from a logistic point of view.

Seems like the best way to do this is to get some galleons sailing from our east coast. We have one near Pharsalos and can build maybe 3 more. We have 8 paratroopers in Portugese territory and can bring in 4 more from elsewhere on our continent.

 

[ShannonCT]

Hmm. Computer allows the Internet, but I'm doubtful we'd get any necessary techs out of that. It might fill in a few holes earlier in the tree, though.

Probably nothing useful. And we want to avoid HBR so we can continue to build chariots.

Radio allows Rock and Roll, which provides an extra happy face, and Christo which lets us switch civics more often. I don't think that either of those is worth the hammers, though. How often are we thinking of switching civics, and how badly will we need the happy face? I can maybe see that with Sushi, the happy face would be more welcome, but if RnR is worth the hammers, maybe we should be building Broadway now for the same reason.

The hit singles from RnR give +1 happiness minimum, and +1 happiness with Odeons, and +1 happiness with broadcast towers. Still, it's probably cheaper to spam chariots out of Argos since we want to capture the overflow hammers as gold there anyway.

 

[Frederiksberg]

OK, we should be able to jump paratroopers from Cuzco and then airlift a settler to the captured barb city.

That sounds like an efficient implementation. I don't think this has top priority, but it would be nice to fit in along the way.

Seems like the best way to do this is to get some galleons sailing from our east coast. We have one near Pharsalos and can build maybe 3 more. We have 8 paratroopers in Portugese territory and can bring in 4 more from elsewhere on our continent.

Something like that. Like leif I have been staring at the map . Our best asset is the army but we have a problem because we can't keep any cities due to excessive maintenance. I think this is a major problem and solving this must be given high priority. This means that we must get some workers out to chop the courthouse and FP in Cuzco. It also means that we should be looking for a way to get Versailles built. It must be in a city with a fair number of forests so that it can be done fast. Perhaps Kwadukuza or Krasnoyarsk?

Remember to cancel the copper and iron deals with Justinian (We are selling to him!)

 

[leif erikson]

Actually mines are in general not as good as windmills - particularly during golden age where the windmill yields 1f2h3g (with Free Market) and the railroaded mine yields 4h. The value of the food is that half a tile extra can be worked so a conservative estimate says that it's worth at least 2h (base). In other words, the windmills is at least 3gpt better than the mine during a GA. As a consequence, mining hills should be the exception (where we need to construct essential building like Wall Street in Akkad), not the rule.

I understand your point.

How do the hammer multipliers figure into this equation if we are going to place a city on wealth? A mined hill, with a railroad (EDIT - in Golden Age) yields 5 hammers, doubled with Forge, Factory and Power? 10 hammers/mine on wealth equates to 10 commerce?

A windmill gets 2 hammers, doubled to 4, (EDIT - three in Golden Age, doubled to 6) +3 Gold totals 7 commerce (9 in GA?)?

Of course, we need to build the Factory and a Power source, so perhaps at some point we begin changing some hills over? There must be a balance we need to achieve? Looks like to maintain 100% research, we will need some hammer rich cities producing Wealth soon? That coupled with Maintenance reduction techniques, such as Courthouses and the FP and Versailles (those need to be built as well?), as you outlined. The only other buffer appears to be the Army taking cities, doesn't look like that can keep pace with our thirst for Gold?

 

[ShannonCT]

Partial plan for my turnset:

Corporations:
Found Mining Inc in Akkad and build a representative. Spread to Athens and build more reps out of Athens. Spread to Cuzco and then small cities first. Get more Mining resources from AI and hook more resources.
Found Sushi in Babylon and spread to Sippar and Corinth first. Hook seafood resources on east coast.

War:
Capture Hammy's last city this turn. Move survivors to Sparta and Athens to be airlifted to where needed.
Move all paratroopers in Korean theater toward Seoul and attack when favorable. Land galleons full of paratroopers at Pyongyang, possibly Nampo. Keep attacking until Wang is dead.
Prepare a force of 12 paratroopers and 4 galleons for an invasion of Zulu.

Economy:
Start Golden Age with GS now. Keep enough cash on hand to spread corps. Build wealth in cities that have forge and courthouse and that wont get big benefit from levee or factory. MM cities to maximize hammers and commerce.

Techs:
Assembly Line-Combustion-Industrialism

Great People:
Grow another GS in Babylon and then hire all merchants. Leiria can start hiring merchants at Pop4. Delphi has a lot of GPPs accumulated from Oracle (352/603). Should we spread Sushi to Delphi and try to get a non-Caste great person (GE, GP, or GSpy)? No other cities expected to grow great people.

Cities:
Akkad - Mining rep, bank, Wall Street, chop forests and RR/mine hills
Nippur - observatory, forge, courthouse, turn farm to workshop
Babylon - NE, Sushi reps, courthouse
Borsippa - chariot, forge, courthouse
Sparta - Taj, levee, courthouse
Sippar - bank, courthouse, build more workshops
Mycenae - galleon, courthouse, Rushmore
Corinth - paratrooper, courthouse, corporate reps, build more workshops
Delphi - forge, courthouse
Piraeus - settler, settler
Knossos - chariot, wealth
Thebes - bank, courthouse, wealth
Athens - levee, Mining reps, factory, coal plant, RR/mine coal
Pharsalos - workboat, levee, courthouse
Argos - courthouse, galleon, galleon, workboat, workboat, chariots
Leiria - granary, build watermill and windmill
Ephesus - bank (needed one more), observatory, wealth
Coimbra - courthouse, wealth
Lagos - courthouse, library, wealth
Oporto - granary, missionaries
Braga - forge, courthouse
Evora - courthouse, wealth
Lisbon - missionaries, forge, granary, library
Guimaraes - library
Wonsan - courthouse
Pyongsong - gift to Justinian
Inchon - gift to Justinian
Tiwanaku - courthouse, wealth
Cuzco - courthouse, Forbidden Palace, chop forests
Machu Pichu - courthouse, chariots

Besides these planned builds, build corporate reps to spread limited Sushi and Mining Inc everywhere, and build odeons/chariots when needed for happiness.

Other units:
Airlift two current missionaries to Incan cities and other one to Portugal. Airlift workers to Cuzco. Move current and new settler to found middle east cities for more metal. Settle city near Inchon to pick up 2 more gold.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, it looks good!

Courthouse and FP in Cuzco as soon as can be chopped?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Are you going to run research at less than 100% or have you figured out a way, with a GA, to hammer sufficient gpt?

 

[ShannonCT]

Are you going to run research at less than 100% or have you figured out a way, with a GA, to hammer sufficient gpt?

I haven't calculated exactly what rate we can run at during the golden age, but I can only assume we'll have to run at less than 100% while building infrastructure and spreading corps.

 

[ShannonCT]

CP,

I noticed your post about viruses from CFC. In the last couple months, CFC had been getting some bad ads from the website host that have likely been infecting people using Internet Explorer with adware/malware. Assuming you're using IE, I recommend you switch to Firefox or some other browser. It's much better at blocking bad ads.

If you think you're infected with something from CFC, I suggest you download and run Malwarebytes anti-malware, Spybot search and destroy, and AVG antivirus. You can get them all free at download.com. You might also try going to the Microsoft website and use their system diagnostic tool. If you're having trouble running any of these, you might want to reboot your PC in safe mode.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Prepare a force of 12 paratroopers and 4 galleons for an invasion of Zulu.

Would like other opinions on the placement of the Versailles. It's important, because it would then make sense to target this city first (kwaDukuza, Krasnoyarsk,..) with this eastern force so that we can have the Versailles built (chop) before we capture any more large cities in that area. This project needs careful planning so that we have missionary, Mining Inc. exec and a bunch of workers ready in time.

Great People:
Grow another GS in Babylon and then hire all merchants. Leiria can start hiring merchants at Pop4. Delphi has a lot of GPPs accumulated from Oracle (352/603). Should we spread Sushi to Delphi and try to get a non-Caste great person (GE, GP, or GSpy)? No other cities expected to grow great people.

Looks like an uphill batlle for Delphi to catch up to Babylon. NE will be done next turn, Dur-K will fall and that gives two extra specialists. Spreading Sushi will also enable us to hire a huge number of specialist - something like 20 specialist is not unlikely. I think we should do whatever we can to get a GSpy/GProhet/GEng by building, courthouse, jail, temple and industrial park in Bab. Worst case beelining to Fusion will give us an Engineer (I guess that researching Communism for the GSpy is too expensive). Don't know if Fusion comes too late - perhaps less than 12 turns left after that tech?

 

[ShannonCT]

KwaD seems like the easiest city to capture for building Versailles. We'll still need to secure the area before we can chop Versailles though. We can airlift Mining rep and missionary as soon as its captured and then 2 workers per turn when it's safe.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Perhaps use galleons to transport some of these units. We have limited air capacity and there are quite a few anarchy turns at our disposal to get the logistics in place.

 

[ShannonCT]

My turnset plan has been updated.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Plan looks good

Other units:
Airlift two current missionaries to Incan cities and other one to Portugal. Airlift workers to Cuzco. Move current and new settler to found middle east cities for more metal. Settle city near Inchon to pick up 2 more gold.

There is a city site a few tiles NW of Corihuayrachina that can pick up coal and iron (settle and gift to Justinian). We could delay settling the tripple gold+corn city until we have the FP with the intention of keeping it. Working corn + 3 gold it should be quite nice. And we can spread Mining Inc there as well.

When our workers are done chopping around Cuzco consider gfiting some to Justinian so that he can hook coal and sugar in his cities.

EDIT: I think Tiwanaku and Machu Pichu could use libraries. Payback time is extremely short due to the reduced cost. In principle building Rushmore is more efficient than building wealth directly. Of course it must be weighted against the immediate need for reaching Plastics in a reasonable time. Anyway consider putting some turns in Rushmore in the wealth building cities (We can only build it in one place at a time and it has to be taken off the build queue in order to be accessible to a new city).

 

[PaulisKhan]

Finished my PhD defense on friday, it was pretty intense so I took the weekend to unwind, just catching up on things now.

Justin needs steampower in order to be able to trade us coal.
I usually road my vassals resources before gifting them the worker, I find that it speeds up their hookup rate.