SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Athens already has an academy. Right . . . I knew that. Delaying a GS that we don't have a good use for is not critical.

I did some calculations on whipping a settler in Athens vs. building it:

If we build a settler in Athens immediately after the worker, and swap a corn farm for a windmill with Piraeus for 2 turns, we can have a settler ready to go on T59 with 1 hammer overflow. On T60, Athens could grow to Pop8.

If we put the worker overflow into a settler next turn, swap corn for windmill with Piraeus for 3 turns, grow to Pop8 on T58 and Pop9 of T59, and then whip on T59, we can have a settler ready to go on T60. We would be at Pop7 on T60, compared to Pop8 with the other strategy, or in other words, 9 food behind. If we combined this strategy with fast Monarchy, we would catch up to the other Athens on T61. We would net 29 free hammers for building units. The settler would be one turn later.

In Piraeus, if we build a worker now, it will be ready on T59. If we whip the granary on T55 and the worker on T61, it will be ready on T62. The hammers gained for other things (airship?) probably make it worth it if we can put up with the 3 turn delay to the worker and the lost GPPs.

Instead of Delphi whipping a library (worth only 1.75 beakers per turn now), maybe it should grow for 2 turns, then build a worker for 2 turns and whip that. We could save the library build to implement the whip/chop overflow after Math.

Sounds good.

If G22 wants to play next, that's great with me. If we don't hear from him in the next 12 hours, I'll go ahead and post a plan around noon tomorrow (about 14 hours from now). (Not sure when I'll be able to play, though. Might work for me to play a few turns when able and post for feedback when I'm unable.)

Sure would be nice to have SCT's input on benefit of Alpha by then. What to research is the most difficult and important decision we need to make at this point. Also, what is the inclination of the known and surmised AI leaders we have to deal with regarding the dreaded You-are-too-advanced-to-trade-tech-with" rejection? If we're going to try to trade for all these lower level techs and trade Electricity to aid the AI in researching future tradeable techs, might we have to deal with this?

 

[ShannonCT]

Sure would be nice to have SCT's input on benefit of Alpha by then. What to research is the most difficult and important decision we need to make at this point. Also, what is the inclination of the known and surmised AI leaders we have to deal with regarding the dreaded You-are-too-advanced-to-trade-tech-with" rejection? If we're going to try to trade for all these lower level techs and trade Electricity to aid the AI in researching future tradeable techs, might we have to deal with this?

With Alpha in 4 turns, we are guaranteed to see Poly, Mono, and Archery, and likely Sailing and IW. Maybe Math. In 8 turns, maybe Construction or Monarchy.

Thresholds for WFYABTA:

Hammurabi - Medium
Joao - High
Unlikely we would see WFYABTA from either of them before they're dead

Shaka - Low
Ragnar - Low
Sitting Bull - Low
Willem - High
If these are the other 4 AI, Willem is the best to keep around.

 

[Grover22]

Thanks for the offer, but I'm going to pass.

I am enjoying reading along just fine.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Since G22 is a committed kibitzer, I'll try and post in a few hours.

Thanks for the info, SCT. Having considered it, thinking Alpha now (as there seems to be no good estimate of when our two neighbors are likely to research it for us) -- like probability of having knowledge of iron and ability to build a galley before settling on next settling sites, not to mention earlier Mono and Math. If go that route, wouldn't it make sense to set intelligence at 10% and learn what Ham is researching about time we can start trading tech?

I have downloaded the save from PK's post #441. Can I play from that save, or do I need to pick it up from GOTM central?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Tentative plan as promised (on time and under budget):

Switching to Alpha then Monarchy.

Intelligence at 10%

Not planning to change civics until Monarchy, then also Caste (perhaps delaying for final whipping) and hopefully OR.

ATHENS
Complete watermill and move presently idle worker onto forest-to-be-preserved tile to complete it in two turns, with chop going into settler. Three preserve workers then sent to other duties, including roading toward next city. Other suggestions?

Complete worker (and send him to windmill Delphi hill), put overflow into settler, then start phalanx, switching to settler to absorb chop. Once Athens hits Pop8, build settlers/workers until pop nine is imminent. [SCT, would you re-figure an optimal whipping/sharing-corn scenario from pop8, assuming no Monarchy?]

PYRAEUS

Whip granary, start airship, whip worker or possibly settler when happiness recovers.

DELPHI

Following SCT’s suggestion . . . grow for 2 turns, then build a worker for 2 turns and whip that. Save the library build to implement the whip/chop overflow after Math.

SPARTA

Build granary. Improve windmill, road it, then farm riverine grassland.

Other plans:

Airship to the northern fur, then to Delphi, then to Sparta or Bab city and on to points west.

Sending Sparta warrior and Athens phalanx to fogbust toward presumed next city site. Keeping a phalanx near Sparta in case loaded barb galley shows up.

Missionary to scout Bab for immediate western airship re=base site.

If one of our cities is converted by Ham’s missionary, shouldn’t we convert to a state religion immediately to speed friendship and its tech trading facilitation?

Once we have the present watermill and the one in progress completed in Athens, it is not clear to me which of the three remaining riverine tiles will allow a watermill. Thinking only the tile East of the city, but would like someone to please confirm that.

 

[leif erikson]

I have downloaded the save from PK's post #441. Can I play from that save, or do I need to pick it up from GOTM central?

Yes, you can use it. It is the same save.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Since G22 is a committed kibitzer, I'll try and post in a few hours.

Thanks for the info, SCT. Having considered it, thinking Alpha now (as there seems to be no good estimate of when our two neighbors are likely to research it for us) -- like probability of having knowledge of iron and ability to build a galley before settling on next settling sites, not to mention earlier Mono and Math. If go that route, wouldn't it make sense to set intelligence at 10% and learn what Ham is researching about time we can start trading tech?

I have downloaded the save from PK's post #441. Can I play from that save, or do I need to pick it up from GOTM central?

If it was my last turnset then that is the save from central (it took me a couple of tries to get the URL link thing working properly because the actualy URL is too long for the forums to display properly)

 

[PaulisKhan]

Tentative plan as promised (on time and under budget):


ATHENS
Complete watermill and move presently idle worker I think that presently idle worker is headed to help finish the watermill so that athens can switch off working the forest preserve to that asap. onto forest-to-be-preserved tile to complete it in two turns, with chop going into settler.
Three preserve workers then sent to other duties, including roading toward next city. Other suggestions? I need to load the save up and look at it again, but I think we can we need a cottage on the river corner in order to be working all properly improved tiles once all 4 watermills are complete.

PYRAEUS

Whip granary, start airship, whip worker or possibly settler when happiness recovers. I think settler

DELPHI

Following SCT’s suggestion . . . grow for 2 turns, then build a worker for 2 turns and whip that. Save the library build to implement the whip/chop overflow after Math.

SPARTA

Build granary. Improve windmill, road it, then farm riverine grassland.

Other plans:

Airship to the northern fur, then to Delphi, then to Sparta or Bab city and on to points west.

Sending Sparta warrior and Athens phalanx to fogbust toward presumed next city site. Keeping a phalanx near Sparta in case loaded barb galley shows up.

Missionary to scout Bab for immediate western airship re=base site.

If one of our cities is converted by Ham’s missionary, shouldn’t we convert to a state religion immediately to speed friendship and its tech trading facilitation? I think yes but there might be an optimum time to do it, ie just after a worker is completed (at least then the worker can get to work)

Once we have the present watermill and the one in progress completed in Athens, it is not clear to me which of the three remaining riverine tiles will allow a watermill. Thinking only the tile East of the city, but would like someone to please confirm that. There is room for 4 watermills. If you mouse over the tile with the worker selected it will tell you which ones it can turn into a watermill

I still don't think we should be whipping in Athens. At the very least it causes an unhappy citizen who can't work a tile. For a lost citizen to be worth losing he has to be producing hammers/commerce at a rate less than that of the whip conversion, I don't see that happening in Athens?
If that citizen is costing us 2 food, and produces 1 food, 2 hammers and 4 commerce in return how is it more efficient to whip him away?
I feel like I'm missing something here.

 

[ShannonCT]

ATHENS
Complete watermill and move presently idle worker onto forest-to-be-preserved tile to complete it in two turns, with chop going into settler. Three preserve workers then sent to other duties, including roading toward next city. Other suggestions?

Would like to get more watermills built soon, so two more riverside tiles need to be chopped.

Complete worker (and send him to windmill Delphi hill), put overflow into settler, then start phalanx, switching to settler to absorb chop. Once Athens hits Pop8, build settlers/workers until pop nine is imminent. [SCT, would you re-figure an optimal whipping/sharing-corn scenario from pop8, assuming no Monarchy?]

CP, note that building a forest preserve doesn't result in a chop. And I don't think we want to whip Athens unless we are going to grow it to Pop9-10, because we don't want to leave power tiles (corn, mills) unworked. Without Monarchy in 4 turns, suggest we grow to Pop8 as forest preserve is completed and finish settler build after growth.

PYRAEUS

Whip granary, start airship, whip worker or possibly settler when happiness recovers.

If Athens builds settler (which I think it should), we need another worker before another settler. we need at least 1.5 workers per city.

Airship to the northern fur, then to Delphi, then to Sparta or Bab city and on to points west.

Airships can rebase to any visible city. No need to rebase to Delphi.

If one of our cities is converted by Ham’s missionary, shouldn’t we convert to a state religion immediately to speed friendship and its tech trading facilitation?

Yes, after settler is built.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Appreciate the truly constructive critcisms.

Would like to get more watermills built soon, so two more riverside tiles need to be chopped. You're not concerned about doing this before Math, even with other decent tiles to work?

CP, note that building a forest preserve doesn't result in a chop. Sorry . . . senior moment I guess. And I don't think we want to whip Athens unless we are going to grow it to Pop9-10, because we don't want to leave power tiles (corn, mills) unworked. Without Monarchy in 4 turns, suggest we grow to Pop8 as forest preserve is completed and finish settler build after growth. That makes sense.

If Athens builds settler (which I think it should), we need another worker before another settler. we need at least 1.5 workers per city. Okay, worker in Pyraeus -- PK, are you OK with that? -- and continue plan to produce a worker in Delphi in 5 turns. Any thoughts on when and where best to produce a second settler and third worker?

Airships can rebase to any visible city. .

Regardless of distance to?

"I think that presently idle worker is headed to help finish the watermill so that athens can switch off working the forest preserve to that asap." At the expense of delaying happiness and useful growth a turn? We can put a citizen on the forest preserve until the watermill is built, plus the two workers now working the preserve will finish it one turn earlier and be able to start other tasks a turn sooner.


"I think we can we need a cottage on the river corner in order to be working all properly improved tiles once all 4 watermills are complete." I'm thinking our workers-to-be-produced might better be assigned this tasks, so at least some of our existing ones can start roading to our next city site. Not sure we need more than one working on additional watermills right away either.

 

[ShannonCT]

You're not concerned about doing this before Math, even with other decent tiles to work?

The difference between a forest preserve and a watermill is 1 hammer and 1 commerce. Chopping before Math loses 7 hammers. I guess if the delay in building a watermill is 4 turns or fewer, it may be ok to delay.

Regardless of distance to?

Yes, strange but true.

At the expense of delaying happiness and useful growth a turn? We can put a citizen on the forest preserve until the watermill is built, plus the two workers now working the preserve will finish it one turn earlier and be able to start other tasks a turn sooner.

I think you're right that 1 turn earlier growth is a bit better than 1 turn earlier watermill.

 

[PaulisKhan]

right on Athens, I thought it still had an extra happiness to grow into, but if we're at the cap then we should obviously focus on raising the cap first.

As far as chops in Athens, If we can replace the forest with a mill and work the mill immediately then unless math is 1-2 turns away we should just chop it. We'll hardly lose anything on hammers, and with a library+academy that commerce is invaluable.

I'm ok with another worker in Pyreaus but I'm also concerned about falling behind the rexing curve.
That Joao blocker city needs to get in place asap and we still have so many other good cities sites to claim.
Our next city won't be building workers/settlers for a while as it needs to grow to work all the wine/wheat/cows... ahhh so many things to do!


Will you be stopping at alphabet or playing all the way through?

 

[Cactus Pete]

As far as chops in Athens, If we can replace the forest with a mill and work the mill immediately then unless math is 1-2 turns away we should just chop it. We'll hardly lose anything on hammers, and with a library+academy that commerce is invaluable. We may get Math thru Alpha, so my thinking is not to start chopping until chop won't be finished until turn we research Alpha and hopefully make that trade. Then, whether Math available or not, complete chop and watermill ASAP.

I'm ok with another worker in Pyreaus but I'm also concerned about falling behind the rexing curve. Concur on need to rex rapidly. Extra workers will help get multiple settlers out and new city tiles improved. Think worker first in Pyraeus is optimal, but still waiting for input on 'when and where best to produce a second settler and third worker.'
That Joao blocker city needs to get in place asap and we still have so many other good cities sites to claim.
Our next city won't be building workers/settlers for a while as it needs to grow to work all the wine/wheat/cows... ahhh so many things to do!

Will you be stopping at alphabet or playing all the way through?

Plan to get Alpha researched and then stop immediately for discussion based on save posted only in thread. Will not be playing for at least 5 hours and will be checking thread regularly even while playing (probably sporadically), so additional input is encouraged.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Intelligence at 10%

I'm sure that getting intelligence about Hammurabi's research might be valuable. I don't follow the 10% though. I think we should either increase it more (60%) so that we get to see his research now (if we need to) or perhaps better, wait until we have Alphabet and then turn espionage up for one turn if we believe that this wil give us further valuable information in addition to the info already gained by seeing which techs Hammy and Joao already have. The 10% espionage for several turns will also cause rounding loss for several turns instead of just one.

Airship to the northern fur, then to Delphi, then to Sparta or Bab city and on to points west.

Missionary to scout Bab for immediate western airship re=base site.

Like SCT already mentioned we can rebase to Sparta and then uncover the hidden Babylonian city near Sparta. Then rebase to this city (thanks to our open borders) next turn and repeat the scouting from there (i.e. most likely no need to scout with missionary).

Keeping a phalanx near Sparta in case loaded barb galley shows up.

I guess the phalanx must be inside Sparta otherwise the 3 move barb galleys could move up to city and it could be taken with an amphibious assault.

If one of our cities is converted by Ham’s missionary, shouldn’t we convert to a state religion immediately to speed friendship and its tech trading facilitation?

I suppose so. We need a religion anyway for OR to be effective.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I still don't think we should be whipping in Athens. At the very least it causes an unhappy citizen who can't work a tile. For a lost citizen to be worth losing he has to be producing hammers/commerce at a rate less than that of the whip conversion, I don't see that happening in Athens?
If that citizen is costing us 2 food, and produces 1 food, 2 hammers and 4 commerce in return how is it more efficient to whip him away?
I feel like I'm missing something here.

Whipping is always better when you are building workers/settlers and you have some distance to the happy cap/ways to increase the happy cap. You can look at it this way: By whipping the worker/settler you decrease the period of time where the city cannot grow because the worker/settler is built faster. Your argument is closer to the truth for the case where we have reached the happy cap and has no means of increasing it and also for the case where you whip something else than workers/settlers. Does this make sense to you?

Anyway, I'm convinced that we should do some whipping in our cities because we are not at the happy cap and have various means of increasing it. Waiting for the cities to grow and reach the happy cap would mean postponing the worker/settler builds and that's not what we want right now (need to REX).

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry, finally got WOTM23 all set, so I can pay attention again, if that ever helped.

Sparta can work the clam tile for an extra commerce, beaker, per turn. Also, you may want to farm the grass tile west of the Copper as it is a corner tile and I don't think we can build a Watermills there?

Second Settler? Athens, it seems that after the worker, start settler to claim overflow and work until Forest Preserve finishes. Athens will then grow in 1-turn if we switch off of Settler. By the time this Settler completes, we should have Alphabet and we can see if Math is available. If so, we grab it and chop the second Settler to clear the tiles for Watermills?

The question then becomes where do we come up with a Phalanx for escort? Perhaps this is what we can start building in Athens when we want it to grow after the forest preserve completes? Looks like it will require two turns.

That leaves Piraeus for the third Worker?

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm sure that getting intelligence about Hammurabi's research might be valuable. I don't follow the 10% though. Figuring 10% would give us intel just as Alpha comes in without delaying it. I think we should either increase it more (60%) so that we get to see his research now (if we need to) or perhaps better, wait until we have Alphabet and then turn espionage up for one turn if we believe that this wil give us further valuable information in addition to the info already gained by seeing which techs Hammy and Joao already have. The 10% espionage for several turns will also cause rounding loss for several turns instead of just one. Thought BtS had eliminated problem with rounding. Not true?

Like SCT already mentioned we can rebase to Sparta and then uncover the hidden Babylonian city near Sparta. Then rebase to this city (thanks to our open borders) next turn and repeat the scouting from there (i.e. most likely no need to scout with missionary). Thinking missionary might save us a turn and don't see better (or safer) use for him. BTW, is it possible to rebase in Lisbon?

I guess the phalanx must be inside Sparta otherwise the 3 move barb galleys could move up to city and it could be taken with an amphibious assault.

Noted.....

 

[Cactus Pete]

Whipping is always better when you are building workers/settlers and you have some distance to the happy cap/ways to increase the happy cap. You can look at it this way: By whipping the worker/settler you decrease the period of time where the city cannot grow because the worker/settler is built faster. Your argument is closer to the truth for the case where we have reached the happy cap and has no means of increasing it and also for the case where you whip something else than workers/settlers. Does this make sense to you? ).

It does sound logical. Wouldn't it imply that we should whip the woprker in Athens immediately and put overflow into a settler?

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, we have open borders with Joao, so you can rebase to Lisbon.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sparta can work the clam tile for an extra commerce, beaker, per turn. Also, you may want to farm the grass tile west of the Copper as it is a corner tile and I don't think we can build a Watermills there? Noted.

Second Settler? Athens, it seems that after the worker, start settler (I think this is what I'm referencing as my first settler.)to claim overflow and work until Forest Preserve finishes. Athens will then grow in 1-turn if we switch off of Settler. By the time this Settler completes, we should have Alphabet and we can see if Math is available. If so, we grab it and chop the second Settler to clear the tiles for Watermills? But Fred wants to whip while we're below the happy cap, and I'm trying to figure out if that's optimal.

The question then becomes where do we come up with a Phalanx for escort? Perhaps this is what we can start building in Athens when we want it to grow after the forest preserve completes? Looks like it will require two turns. Will do some scouting to see what might be lurking near the wheat and cows, then decide if another phalanx is needed.

That leaves Piraeus for the third Worker?

Again, think you're referring to my second worker. Question is where to build the next one after the one in Pyraeus.