THAT'S A BIG HELP, leif.How about in Cuzco? Lots of food, lots of hammers, lots of population and lots of forests.
12 turns to wait and needs a Forge...
Once we have Banking, is a bank more pressing than an observatory?
SGOTM 09 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Once we have Banking, is a bank more pressing than an observatory?
Research: Steel>Steam Power>Liberalism>RxR (with Nationalism, possibly Guilds, and Banking researched as soon as war with Incas is completed)> Economics>Corporation
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Didn't know about the Rushmore stone bonus and forgot that we started with facism, never built it before >.<
It's perfect for building cash, start the build cycle! it was a serious oversight for us not to have started doing so already =(.
HC: reason not to vassalise is that he has no metals and keeping him will make it harder to vassalise civs like russia and korea where we may want to vassalise them in order to claim their metals.
My suggestion is extort techs for peace and then wipe him out (gift the garbage cities to justin).
I'm fairly ignorant of vassal mechanics, I just repeat what I've picked up in conversation over the last year. If we keep a bunch of stunted civs like babylon and Inca around, then the remaining civs will be more powerful than the average civ power rating which means that they won't be inclined to become vassals. If you wipe out the smallest civs then all of a sudden the average power rating rises and they become the small fish, thus increasing their chance of capitulation.
This is all just hearsay though.
It's perfect for building cash, start the build cycle! it was a serious oversight for us not to have started doing so already =(.
HC: reason not to vassalise is that he has no metals and keeping him will make it harder to vassalise civs like russia and korea where we may want to vassalise them in order to claim their metals.
My suggestion is extort techs for peace and then wipe him out (gift the garbage cities to justin).
I'm fairly ignorant of vassal mechanics, I just repeat what I've picked up in conversation over the last year. If we keep a bunch of stunted civs like babylon and Inca around, then the remaining civs will be more powerful than the average civ power rating which means that they won't be inclined to become vassals. If you wipe out the smallest civs then all of a sudden the average power rating rises and they become the small fish, thus increasing their chance of capitulation.
This is all just hearsay though.
Frederiksberg
Deity
Cactus Pete said:
Are you sure we need an airport at all? And why so close to Athens? Seems more logical to me to put it far away from our current airport...
Cactus Pete said:
I have changed my mind about Corihuayrachina and I think we should capture it. Perhaps with the intention of liberating. We can use the sugar resources if we decide to found Standard Ethanol. SE provides 2 beakers per resource and we would have have 10 resources if we also settle the tripple gold+corn site. Thats 20 base beakers. In Athens it would be 70bpt with multipliers and in most cities between 30 and 40 bpt.
Cactus Pete said:
Never mind, I couldn't remember the tech tree correctly.
Cactus Pete said:
Right now Free Religion would yield around 60 bpt. OR is delivering around 15 hpt with the build plan as it looks now. Free Religion gives a happy face for every religion present in a city. Any civic change should be done during a golden age where it doesn't cause anarchy. Perhaps we should only build missionaries for hammer rich cities that we know must build a lot of infrastructure e.g. like Cuzco where we may want to build FP and a bank on top of the usual stuff.
I think settlers need high priority because we should secure as many Mining Inc resources as we can within the next 10 turns. Tripple gold+corn in East Äsia and the iron+gold in the Middle East are spots that we should seek to settle soon. We probably need some workers there as well to build roads and then gift to Justinian.
Cactus Pete said:
Frederiksberg
Deity
Cactus Pete said:
I said:
Once we start spreading Mining Inc. Wall Street will earn a lot of money. So I guess that the above mentioned cities should build bank rather than observatory. Piraeus will have some difficulty finishing the bank but we can help by spreading Mining Inc there early on. We need 6 banks so one more city should have a bank.
Frederiksberg
Deity
PaulisKhan said:
I'm wondering if it makes sense to spend time capturing some irrelevant Inca cities when we could be busy capturing cities that actually have metals in their FC. Any reason not to cherry pick the metal cities in order to stay clear of the dom limit?
Okay, what is your take on the immediate value of Corihuayrachina?
Understood.
Originally Posted by Cactus Pete
Need help deciding where and when to build Ironworks.
Cuzco or maybe even Seul. The turns saved by chopping the last spaceship part seems to be worth the delay.Fine, then I don't have to worry about it.
Tentative build plan:
Athens>paratrooper>courthouse(1turn)>NE(2 turns)>courthouse
Piraeus>Xbow>missionary Piraeus would be an excellent place to build settlers after the GM is born and it no longer has a role to play in GP generation Yes it would. I'll get on it in two turns after the city grows (see micromanagement below).
Delphi>airship>settler
Sparta>airport> NE(1 turn)
Corinth>paratrooper>paratrooper(2turns)>NE(1turn)> finish paratrooper
Thebes>paratrooper>observatory
Argos>paratroopers
Knossos>lighthouse>chariot
Mycenae>paratroopers until converted
Pharsalos>frigate>missionary>observatory
Ephesus>NE(3turns)
Babylon>NP>NE
Akkad>university>missionary Akkad should build a market and a grocer since it will have our coporate HQ's earning tons of gold What about a bank? That's a better return on the hammers.COLOR]
Nippur>granary>chariot Library is a bargain: 6 gpt for only 30 hammers Not a lot of hammers here. Let me get a cheap MP out first and then consider a lib.
Borsippa>granary>lighthouse Library is 4-5 gpt for 30m hammers. Absolutely: changed to granary>library>lighthouseBtw, Borsippa can be MM'ed for hammers and gold - doesn't have to work that much coast Concur, see below.
Sippar>forge
Need help deciding where and when to build Ironworks.
Cuzco or maybe even Seul. The turns saved by chopping the last spaceship part seems to be worth the delay.Fine, then I don't have to worry about it.
Tentative build plan:
Athens>paratrooper>courthouse(1turn)>NE(2 turns)>courthouse
Piraeus>Xbow>missionary Piraeus would be an excellent place to build settlers after the GM is born and it no longer has a role to play in GP generation Yes it would. I'll get on it in two turns after the city grows (see micromanagement below).
Delphi>airship>settler
Sparta>airport> NE(1 turn)
Corinth>paratrooper>paratrooper(2turns)>NE(1turn)> finish paratrooper
Thebes>paratrooper>observatory
Argos>paratroopers
Knossos>lighthouse>chariot
Mycenae>paratroopers until converted
Pharsalos>frigate>missionary>observatory
Ephesus>NE(3turns)
Babylon>NP>NE
Akkad>university>missionary Akkad should build a market and a grocer since it will have our coporate HQ's earning tons of gold What about a bank? That's a better return on the hammers.COLOR]
Nippur>granary>chariot Library is a bargain: 6 gpt for only 30 hammers Not a lot of hammers here. Let me get a cheap MP out first and then consider a lib.
Borsippa>granary>lighthouse Library is 4-5 gpt for 30m hammers. Absolutely: changed to granary>library>lighthouseBtw, Borsippa can be MM'ed for hammers and gold - doesn't have to work that much coast Concur, see below.
Sippar>forge
"Good examples are Cuzco, Babylon and Piraeus and of course the Wall Street city Akkad. Athens is another place where a bank might be profitable." Noted.
Maybe one of the cities we capture soon?
I think we can avoid the Dom'n limit, but time to capture does concern me. Once we deal with all the civs and obtain their desirable cities, we'll have plenty of units available to go back and capture their trash cities -- getting rid of unhappiness (if that's an issue) -- grab a little of their gold, and gift them.
WORKER ACTIONS:
Convert Bab windmill to mine (6hpt>12)
Take workers off of Bab forest preserve duty and farm Borsippa grassland, in process build road to it
Watermill SE of Babylon converted to a farm
Farm the plains/forest NE of Mycenae to time with possible settler completion
On forest W of Corinth build a lumber mill now that Railroad will soon be available
Chop SE forest to speed forge in Sippar, then farm it
Workshop on Nippur grassland
Complete road from Argos to Coimbra
MICROMANAGING:
After 1 turn, move Bab citizen off windmill onto farm to grow city
Move Borsippa citizens inland to get granary in 2 turns
Move two Pharsolos citizens off of plains cottages and onto coastal tiles to speed growth
Move Piraeus merchant specialist to coastal tile to get growth in two turns and GM still in three
Convert Bab windmill to mine (6hpt>12)
Take workers off of Bab forest preserve duty and farm Borsippa grassland, in process build road to it
Watermill SE of Babylon converted to a farm
Farm the plains/forest NE of Mycenae to time with possible settler completion
On forest W of Corinth build a lumber mill now that Railroad will soon be available
Chop SE forest to speed forge in Sippar, then farm it
Workshop on Nippur grassland
Complete road from Argos to Coimbra
MICROMANAGING:
After 1 turn, move Bab citizen off windmill onto farm to grow city
Move Borsippa citizens inland to get granary in 2 turns
Move two Pharsolos citizens off of plains cottages and onto coastal tiles to speed growth
Move Piraeus merchant specialist to coastal tile to get growth in two turns and GM still in three
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Re Banks for wall street: We want 6 minimum banks to be completed within 2 turns of Corporation being researched (gives time to build 2 executives) so we can start on Wall Street asap. We also want Akkad to have a marketplace and grocery as well as the bank and wall street, once the number of metals we control gets high we require those buildings in order to break even (corp maint costs are not linear with increased number of resources)
cherry picking cities vs vassalisation (dom limit shouldn't be an issue either way)
Whatever we do, we have to account for AI culture so let's look at the cities we want to control (or gift to justin) and the resources we want to control (still need to know the locations of coal). The decisions we make determine whether it is optimal to finish off the incans completely or send troops on to new targets.
3*Gold/corn is an obvious location to settle->improve->gift to Justin (or keep, working 3 gold mines+corn should do better than break even?)
Koreans: Seoul is too great a production city to not claim control of. Most of the other cities are of marginal benefit at this stage of the game however he does control 3(?) other metal resources that we require. Do we want to claim the cities for ourselves, gift them to justin or vassalise Wang after we take the capital and maybe 1-2 other cities.
Vassalisation is the quickest, but probably requires us to destroy HC first.
Stalin: His metal resource density is low and his cities are mostly stuck at low pop, meaning that vassalisation in as short a time as possible is probably the most effective means of securing his resources. This would probably involve a quick strike at his capital and the destruction of his SOD (if he has one)
Shaka: Most of his metal resources are located on the periphery of his empire and could be easily picked off before making peace again. Once peace is secured and creative culture has gained us a border pop or two, gifting the cities to Justin seems like the most cost effective thing to do.
cherry picking cities vs vassalisation (dom limit shouldn't be an issue either way)
Whatever we do, we have to account for AI culture so let's look at the cities we want to control (or gift to justin) and the resources we want to control (still need to know the locations of coal). The decisions we make determine whether it is optimal to finish off the incans completely or send troops on to new targets.
3*Gold/corn is an obvious location to settle->improve->gift to Justin (or keep, working 3 gold mines+corn should do better than break even?)
Koreans: Seoul is too great a production city to not claim control of. Most of the other cities are of marginal benefit at this stage of the game however he does control 3(?) other metal resources that we require. Do we want to claim the cities for ourselves, gift them to justin or vassalise Wang after we take the capital and maybe 1-2 other cities.
Vassalisation is the quickest, but probably requires us to destroy HC first.
Stalin: His metal resource density is low and his cities are mostly stuck at low pop, meaning that vassalisation in as short a time as possible is probably the most effective means of securing his resources. This would probably involve a quick strike at his capital and the destruction of his SOD (if he has one)
Shaka: Most of his metal resources are located on the periphery of his empire and could be easily picked off before making peace again. Once peace is secured and creative culture has gained us a border pop or two, gifting the cities to Justin seems like the most cost effective thing to do.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Corporations 101
Founding a corp: To found a corp, the requisite technologies must be known and the appropriate founding great person must be on hand. Different corps require different great people.
Mining Inc: GE
Sid Sushi: GM
The corporation is founded in a city in much the same way as a holy shrine is built, and somewhat like the shrine generates income based on the degree of adoption of the corporation. Unlike religion however, there is no natural spread of corporations. To spread the corporation an "executive" must be built, in the same way that a missionary for a particular religion is built. This executive is a unit capable of moving to another city and for a small fee will spread the corporation to that city.
Corporations that make use of an identical resources (such as silver for both mining inc and civ jewellers) may not exist simultaneously in the same city, however for a larger fee the pre-exisiting corporation may be driven from the city and surplanted by the new rival corp.
If a corporation is already present in a city then an executive may fail to spread the corp to that city, even if the corporations are not rivals (such as mining inc and sid sushi). This is just as frustrating as failed missionary spread.
Corp maintenance:
When a corporation is spread to a city that city incurs a maintenance cost, this maintenance cost is largely dependant on the number of corporation resources controlled (and is non-linear).
Courthouses in the city will halve this maintenance cost and are very much a required aspect of the strategy. The maintenance cost is also the aspect of the corp that is affected by the economic civic being run, whether it be mercantilism (no effect), free market (-25% reduction in cost) or environmentalism (+25% increase in cost).
To help offset the maintenance cost the Corp Headquarters (where the corp was founded) recives a fixed income boost (just like a shrine). It is this fixed income bonus that must be enhanced by cash multipliers in order to ensure that the corporation will at least break even.
However even with all the cash multipliers active it is not unusual to see a fall in income if the number of resources controlled is large. This drop however is easily overcome by the simple act of building wealth with the newly gained hammers or running merchants with the surplus food.
---
Re Standard Ethanol: This corp is only available at Plastics by which time it will be too late to recoup the cost of spreading it.
Founding a corp: To found a corp, the requisite technologies must be known and the appropriate founding great person must be on hand. Different corps require different great people.
Mining Inc: GE
Sid Sushi: GM
The corporation is founded in a city in much the same way as a holy shrine is built, and somewhat like the shrine generates income based on the degree of adoption of the corporation. Unlike religion however, there is no natural spread of corporations. To spread the corporation an "executive" must be built, in the same way that a missionary for a particular religion is built. This executive is a unit capable of moving to another city and for a small fee will spread the corporation to that city.
Corporations that make use of an identical resources (such as silver for both mining inc and civ jewellers) may not exist simultaneously in the same city, however for a larger fee the pre-exisiting corporation may be driven from the city and surplanted by the new rival corp.
If a corporation is already present in a city then an executive may fail to spread the corp to that city, even if the corporations are not rivals (such as mining inc and sid sushi). This is just as frustrating as failed missionary spread.
Corp maintenance:
When a corporation is spread to a city that city incurs a maintenance cost, this maintenance cost is largely dependant on the number of corporation resources controlled (and is non-linear).
Courthouses in the city will halve this maintenance cost and are very much a required aspect of the strategy. The maintenance cost is also the aspect of the corp that is affected by the economic civic being run, whether it be mercantilism (no effect), free market (-25% reduction in cost) or environmentalism (+25% increase in cost).
To help offset the maintenance cost the Corp Headquarters (where the corp was founded) recives a fixed income boost (just like a shrine). It is this fixed income bonus that must be enhanced by cash multipliers in order to ensure that the corporation will at least break even.
However even with all the cash multipliers active it is not unusual to see a fall in income if the number of resources controlled is large. This drop however is easily overcome by the simple act of building wealth with the newly gained hammers or running merchants with the surplus food.
---
Re Standard Ethanol: This corp is only available at Plastics by which time it will be too late to recoup the cost of spreading it.
Thanks for the education, PK (and I certainly was ignorant).
"Re Banks for wall street: We want 6 minimum banks to be completed within 2 turns of Corporation being researched Don't see how I could come close to doing this. (gives time to build 2 executives) so we can start on Wall Street asap. We also want Akkad to have a marketplace and grocery as well as the bank and wall street, once the number of metals we control gets high we require those buildings in order to break even (corp maint costs are not linear with increased number of resources)" (Again, not possible. We're talking around 25 turns to get those three buildings.)
"Re Banks for wall street: We want 6 minimum banks to be completed within 2 turns of Corporation being researched Don't see how I could come close to doing this. (gives time to build 2 executives) so we can start on Wall Street asap. We also want Akkad to have a marketplace and grocery as well as the bank and wall street, once the number of metals we control gets high we require those buildings in order to break even (corp maint costs are not linear with increased number of resources)" (Again, not possible. We're talking around 25 turns to get those three buildings.)
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Sorry for the third post but I've been horribly wrong about something (these game changes are killing me)
We probably want to invest in the Corporation tech BEFORE Railroad. Normally mining inc is secured first because it's a better return than the detour through SM->Bio->Medicine however we already started with the only tech that mattered (Medicine). We should incorporate Sid Sushi asap and get our key cities growing.
We probably should have beelined corporations from the start and I'm kicking myself hard for not having seen it sooner, my fault for not paying closer attention to our starting techs.
I suspect that's the cause of the Murky Waters score spike.
Let's get feedback from everyone before deciding anything but I'm pretty sure we need to head for sid sushi. We can do all of that and still get to mining inc in the same amount of time.
We probably want to invest in the Corporation tech BEFORE Railroad. Normally mining inc is secured first because it's a better return than the detour through SM->Bio->Medicine however we already started with the only tech that mattered (Medicine). We should incorporate Sid Sushi asap and get our key cities growing.
We probably should have beelined corporations from the start and I'm kicking myself hard for not having seen it sooner, my fault for not paying closer attention to our starting techs.
I suspect that's the cause of the Murky Waters score spike.
Let's get feedback from everyone before deciding anything but I'm pretty sure we need to head for sid sushi. We can do all of that and still get to mining inc in the same amount of time.
"We probably want to invest in the Corporation tech BEFORE Railroad." This would imply Guilds, Banking, Economics, and Corporation before Liberalism and RxR. We can research those techs soon enough, but getting the buildings built will take awhile.
My planning is on hold 'til this is resolved.
My planning is on hold 'til this is resolved.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
I think we also need philosophy-nationalism-representation in order to tech corps?
hmmmm, maybe it's ok to stay on the RR path until we can extort philo+guilds from HC.
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-edit- getting wall street in place isn't an exact science, there is no correct answer as to when to build it other than "as soon as possible" the effect of this is that banks are sometimes built in production heavy cities rather than in places like Pireaus. The cost of delaying wall street by 10 turns while we wait for a bank to complete in pireaus instead of building it in a hammer heavy commerce poor city is obvious.
As always there is a compromise to be made but we need to be ruthless is figuring out where to build these banks.
Re market+grocery: these buildings can be built relatively quickly in Akkad once mining inc has been incorporated, I just mention them to make sure that they go into the build queue, and are more important than things like universities and observatories in that city.
hmmmm, maybe it's ok to stay on the RR path until we can extort philo+guilds from HC.
-------------
-edit- getting wall street in place isn't an exact science, there is no correct answer as to when to build it other than "as soon as possible" the effect of this is that banks are sometimes built in production heavy cities rather than in places like Pireaus. The cost of delaying wall street by 10 turns while we wait for a bank to complete in pireaus instead of building it in a hammer heavy commerce poor city is obvious.
As always there is a compromise to be made but we need to be ruthless is figuring out where to build these banks.
Re market+grocery: these buildings can be built relatively quickly in Akkad once mining inc has been incorporated, I just mention them to make sure that they go into the build queue, and are more important than things like universities and observatories in that city.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
PK said:
This is what the worksheet I setup will help calculate. You enter the citiy size, the number of resources and the type of buildings in the city and it will figure out the city maintenance cost and also show the "fixed income boost" which I have listed under gold. It also shows the added food or hammers.
I still need to update it for the culture bonuses and the beaker bonus. It also ignores inflation, but inflation is only used to match the game display. The comparison of which city is a better site is done off the NET number which ignores inflation. The game displays the GROSS maintenance fee.
So are you saying that a bank needs to be built there ASAP and the rest can come later?
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