SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

Instead of 7 specialists we'd be much better off working 7 plains workshops, or 14 grassland workshops or some permutation of both.
A plains workshop under caste system and outside of a golden age is worth +5 hpt, (+6 hpt in a golden age which we will spend most of the rest of the game in).
So that's 35 (42 GA) raw hpt. If building wealth then multiply that by 25% forge, 25% factory, 25% power which is around 60gpt (70 gpt GA). Not to mention the extra speed with which space ship components could be built, thus maximising the time that the city spends building wealth/research before swapping over to finish off the component.

Very few cities have 14 grassland tiles and only a fraction have 7 plains tiles that they are not already working. So specialists will be the best solution available in many cities - particularly coastal cities.

We can convert gpt into bpt at a rate higher than 1:1 so the gain is even larger.

This conversion is already taken into account by saying 1g=2b. Actually it's a bit optimistic - it should probably be 1g=1.5b.

However we also have to factor in the time spent converting flatlands into workshops and city growth.

And the cost of building extra workers.

The point I'm trying to make though is that the power of sushi is not in growing cities larger and running lots of specialists (as described in the linked articles), but in working more hammer tiles and building wealth.

If you are not growing you would have to subtract the gold and hammers from the tiles you have stopped working. Makes the calculation quite difficult. I think the most fair comparison is obtained when factoring in the growth and considering only the extra tiles worked when spreading Sushi.

This also has the advantage over Standard Ethanol in that our cities will already be building hammer multipliers for the sake of mining inc, there is no need to double up on beaker multipliers too in order to maximise the effect.

You are forgetting that we already have many cities with substantial beaker multipliers. In those cities nothing has to be done. Simply spread SE and profit will start accumulating after 6-7 turns. And having Sushi in the same city as Mining Inc is problematic due to the increase in maintenance of two corporations when the city grows.

The efficiency is significantly greater if working grassland workshops or mined grassland hills.

Converting windmills into mines is not a good deal. You loose 2g1f in favor of 2h which is unfavorable in itself and on top of that you have to spend worker turns building mine and railroad.

Then there is the problem of the unwanted culture. If Sushi is spread to a city in the middle of a landmass it will expand borders at a very high speed and possibly create problems with the dom limit. (~60 culture per turn). So having many Sushi cities will mean that we can have fewer cities in total.

Conclusion is probably that we have to decide city by city which corporation(s) we want to spread there.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Conclusion is probably that we have to decide city by city which corporation(s) we want to spread there.

The problem is we can only found 2 corps within our Wall Street city, a third corp headquartered elsewhere would likely run at a loss (or close to it).

I'm not against the idea of Standard Ethanol on principle, I just want to be very sure that it's going to be more use to us than Sid Sushi (and I'm still not convinced)
Will look at the game again in the morning and do some tile counting.

 

[Frederiksberg]

HC: Macchu Pichu and the Sugar city are on the menu before peace for Philo and possibly also Guilds. After that immediately turn our attention to Korea, though may turn out it's best to first sail some Inca troops to finish off Joao before moving on to Korea, especially if I deploy newly minted paras against Ham in two turns. (HOW PRESSING IS NEED TO TAKE HAM’S LAST CITY QUICKLY?)

Sailing troops from Inca lands to Portugal sounds slow compared to using them against Korea. Remember to airlift MP's from Athens to Inca cities so that our paratroopers are relieved of MP duty and can move on.

Taking Dur-Kurigalzu means that we get 2 extra specialists in Babylon when the National Park finishes. So I guess it's good enough to capture it around 8 turns from now thus allowing us to send some more paratroopers down to Portugal first.

We need 6 banks so one more city should have a bank.” Maybe one or two of the cities we capture soon?

The bank will come too late there I'm afraid. Depends a little on the number of anarchy turns in the captured cities. We should expect to found Mining Inc. in 10 turns from now meaning that we would like to have 6 banks soon after - say, no later than 15 turns from now and preferably a little earlier. Piraeus is better for settler building so banks in Athens, Akkad and Babylon and then wherever we can get them built within the time frame. Perhaps Borsippa and/or Nippur? If we spread Mining Inc there it will help a lot with the final turns of the bank. This would mean that these cities are prime candidates for courthouses now.

Look to start Taj in city(s) other than final placement one in order to produce gold, also Rushmore may be used for this purpose.

It's probably too early to start building gold even if we get the 2x multiplier. There are many buildings we need that will repay the investment many times not only two times. A city with Mining Inc will typically have a maintenance of 50gpt so courthouses are essential and the 80 hammers will be paid back in 3-4 turns. So it's much better to build courthouses (or other improvements like library) than to build gold even when it's done indirectly by building Wonders. Only cities that already have library, courthouse, university, observatory, forge may be candidates for building wealth. This points towards Athens as the only city where pre-building wonders for cashing in gold makes sense right now.

Akkad>university>missionary>bank

I think Akkad should focus only on commerce buildings. It's already producing 18gpt from Temple of Solomon and it will soon be swimming in gold from the corporate HQ's.

 

[Frederiksberg]

The problem is we can only found 2 corps within our Wall Street city, a third corp headquartered elsewhere would likely run at a loss (or close to it).

No, this is not the case. We could still put the HQ in one of the cities where we have a bank and then build grocer+market in addition. That would mean 4gpt less per corporate branch but it doesn't change profitability that much. In the example of SE the profit would go down to around 30 bpt. Cuzco would be ideal for this and Athens is another possibility.

 

[PaulisKhan]

you're right, for some reason I had +12 gpt per turn from wall street in my head.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sailing troops from Inca lands to Portugal sounds slow compared to using them against Korea. Remember to airlift MP's from Athens to Inca cities so that our paratroopers are relieved of MP duty and can move on. Noted.

Taking Dur-Kurigalzu means that we get 2 extra specialists in Babylon when the National Park finishes. So I guess it's good enough to capture it around 8 turns from now thus allowing us to send some more paratroopers down to Portugal first. Fine with that.

The bank will come too late there (captured cities) I'm afraid. Depends a little on the number of anarchy turns in the captured cities. We should expect to found Mining Inc. in 10 turns from now meaning that we would like to have 6 banks soon after - say, no later than 15 turns from now and preferably a little earlier. Piraeus is better for settler building so banks in Athens, Akkad and Babylon and then wherever we can get them built within the time frame. Perhaps Borsippa and/or Nippur? If we spread Mining Inc there it will help a lot with the final turns of the bank. This would mean that these cities are prime candidates for courthouses now. Have made a note of this and will bear in mind once banks are available.

It's probably too early to start building gold even if we get the 2x multiplier. PK thinks this is crucial, and it is included in the build plan (using NE) right now, which you have not commented negatively on. There are many buildings we need that will repay the investment many times not only two times. A city with Mining Inc will typically have a maintenance of 50gpt so courthouses are essential and the 80 hammers will be paid back in 3-4 turns. So it's much better to build courthouses (or other improvements like library) than to build gold even when it's done indirectly by building Wonders. Only cities that already have library, courthouse, university, observatory, forge may be candidates for building wealth. This points towards Athens as the only city where pre-building wonders for cashing in gold makes sense right now. My current thinking is to go ahead with NE builds and to limit any pre-Taj building to Athens for my turn set, but await your response to this.

I think Akkad should focus only on commerce buildings. It's already producing 18gpt from Temple of Solomon and it will soon be swimming in gold from the corporate HQ's.

Understood, have eliminated missionary build in Akkad.

 

[Frederiksberg]

PK thinks this is crucial, and it is included in the build plan (using NE) right now, which you have not commented negatively on.

I would prefer courthouse in Ephesus instead of NE pre-build (Think I suggested this somewhere). Using the odd turn on NE in Sparta and Corinth seems immaterial and building wealth (indirectly) in Athens makes sense. It's not crucial to build wealth right now because we already have enough gold to research at 100% tech rate until we can found Mining Inc. (assuming that we use the GM from Piraeus for a trade mission). In some cases building wealth might be the only way to keep a decent tech rate but this is not the case for us now. When we start founding corporations courthouses will be worth from 20 to 60 gpt depending on the city size and the number of corporations. so having the courthouses ready before spreading the corp actually means a lot. Having this in mind we should probably think about building courthouses soon in most cities. We should, at least build one in Akkad - it's actually more important than market and grocer. We also need one 12-13 turns from now in the first city we want to spread Mining Inc to. Perhaps Corinth? We also need a courthouse in Argos within 15-16 turns. Spreading Mining. Inc there will do wonders for our unit production (One paratrooper every turn probably).

EDIT: I don't mind keeping the plan as it is if you want to start playing. If you can sneak in some extra courthouses it would be nice though...

 

[Cactus Pete]

I would prefer courthouse in Ephesus instead of NE pre-build (Think I suggested this somewhere). You did, but you did not argue against building wealth, as you do below, so I assumed you were on board with PK. Using the odd turn on NE in Sparta and Corinth seems immaterial and building wealth (indirectly) in Athens makes sense. It's not crucial to build wealth right now because we already have enough gold to research at 100% tech rate until we can found Mining Inc. (assuming that we use the GM from Piraeus for a trade mission Is there any concern that we should save him to form a corporation?). In some cases building wealth might be the only way to keep a decent tech rate but this is not the case for us now. When we start founding corporations courthouses will be worth from 20 to 60 gpt depending on the city size and the number of corporations. so having the courthouses ready before spreading the corp actually means a lot. Having this in mind we should probably think about building courthouses soon in most cities. We should, at least build one in Akkad - it's actually more important than market and grocer. Presuming that it is not more important than the prerequisite bank. We also need one 12-13 turns from now in the first city we want to spread Mining Inc to. Perhaps Corinth? We also need a courthouse in Argos within 15-16 turns. Spreading Mining. Inc there will do wonders for our unit production (One paratrooper every turn probably). Moving courthouses up in the priority order.

EDIT: I don't mind keeping the plan as it is if you want to start playing. If you can sneak in some extra courthouses it would be nice though...

Don't plan to start playing for about 20 hours. Hopefully everyone will have taken the opportunity to give feedback by then.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Is there any concern that we should save him to form a corporation?

No, we get another GM when we discover Economics and we need a GS for Standard Ethanol. We should probably hire scientists in Babylon for that purpose when the National Park is done.

Presuming that it is not more important than the prerequisite bank.

Hard to say which is better (courthouse or bank). It depends on the tech slider and on the number of Mining Inc. resources. Assuming that we can capture Lagos, Oporto, Lisbon, Guimares during the next 10 turns we will have 10 Mining Inc. resources when we found the corporation. We could hope for finding some coal also and it would really help to get a settler out fast to the tripple gold spot. As PK mentioned we could consider keping this city working corn and 3 gold mines. Tricky thing about it is to connect to the trade network - it may require a fort or we may need to capture the Korean city to the north and connect through that. Another solution would be to keep it until the gold is mined and connected and then liberate.

Anyway, with only 10 resources maintenance will go up to around 30 gpt in Akkad when we found Mining Inc so the courthouse is worth 15gpt. With tech slider at 50% we earn 35 gpt so the bank would be worth 17gpt. Quite close and if we get a little more than 10 resources and perhaps can run 60% science courthouse will be better.

It might be a good idea to sell a tech now and get some gold. We can get 100 gold for Theology from Shaka and Wang and 30 gold for Monarchy.

And don't forget to mine and connect the copper north of Delphi during the next 10 turns.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No, we get another GM when we discover Economics and we need a GS for Standard Ethanol. We should probably hire scientists in Babylon for that purpose when the National Park is done. Maybe after NE.

Hard to say which is better (courthouse or bank). It depends on the tech slider and on the number of Mining Inc. resources. Assuming that we can capture Lagos, Oporto, Lisbon, Guimares during the next 10 turns we will have 10 Mining Inc. resources when we found the corporation. We could hope for finding some coal also and it would really help to get a settler out fast to the tripple gold spot. As PK mentioned we could consider keping this city working corn and 3 gold mines. Tricky thing about it is to connect to the trade network - it may require a fort or we may need to capture the Korean city to the north and connect through that. Another solution would be to keep it until the gold is mined and connected and then liberate. Made a note of all this.

It might be a good idea to sell a tech now and get some gold. We can get 100 gold for Theology from Shaka and Wang and 30 gold for Monarchy. And don't forget to mine and connect the copper north of Delphi during the next 10 turns.

Okay.......

 

[leif erikson]

We should also get a fair amount of Gold from conquering cities.

Good work on the plan and good luck!

 

[Frederiksberg]

Maybe after NE.

I think you may have misunderstood... When the National Park is done we get 10 free specialists of our own choosing. It is those 10 I want to be scientists. When we spread Sushi in Babylon we can hire a lot more - I expect that we will have around 20 specialists working there eventually. Including GPP from wonders and multipliers we will get around 200 GPP per turn.

One final thing (I hope ): When the paratrooper moves away from the coast near Pharsalos he should be replaced by a mace or an xbow such that we force the barbs from Atlantis to attack amphibiously (once they build another galley) and at a great disadvantage.

Good luck

 

[PaulisKhan]

If we set up 3 ships we could organise it so Atlantis could never move and land troops in the same turn, then we could just pick them off at sea with our ships.

 

[leif erikson]

If we set up 3 ships we could organise it so Atlantis could never move and land troops in the same turn, then we could just pick them off at sea with our ships.

This is essentially the plan in bringing the Galleon south and building a Frigate.

The Barb galleys are fairly well promoted and, even against Triremes, only had a 70-75% chance. Lost one Trireme trying to kill a Barb Galley early on.

Even when they land, our Mace lost to a Mace and then we had two to kill next to the city, and the odds were not particularly favorable. That is why the Paratrooper ended up there, to kill the remaining Mace. Recommend XBow for defense as we replace the Paratrooper.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think you may have misunderstood...Yes, out of ignorance. Will run your scientists after NP.

One final thing (I hope ): When the paratrooper moves away from the coast near Pharsalos he should be replaced by a mace or an xbow such that we force the barbs from Atlantis to attack amphibiously (once they build another galley) and at a great disadvantage. Will try to keep the Atlantis barbs under control one way or the other.

Good luck

Thanks . . . Playing now. Will post as events warrant.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Making sure that you fully understand how the National Park works: Babylon will get a free scientist for every forest preserve within it's fat cross. This means that it's very important to preserve all the forests there within the next 8 turns.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Forests are all preserved, Fred. I've played four turns and made good progress. Hope to post a report and interim save in about 30 minutes, check out any feedback, then continue later this evening.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SGOTM09 REPORT FOR TURNS 123 – 127

TURN

123 – Initiate plan

IBT – Joao learns Philosophy and attacks with airships, as hoped.

124 -- Lagos falls without losses; new mine (on windmill) in Bab puts NP in
7 turns, but will be able to micromanage it down to six (losing some growth); sell map for 60 gold (avoiding Theo trading – don’t like extra promotions, which is probably paranoid with paratroopers);

IBT – Judaism spreads to Ndondakusaka (Shaka’s); Joao gets a GS; Stalin declares war on Wang Kon;

125 – Airship reveals that there are now 6 longbows, plus assorted other defenders, in Dur K. Find missing Inca city well north of lightly defended Huamanga

IBT – Steam Power> Guilds; GM born in Piraeus (Eventually had to put him on galleon toward Shaka, because I couldn’t airlift him, even to lighted city – not sure why not.); GG born in Athens, settled him in Corinth; barb galley attacked and sank.

126 -- We have coal already mined in Mycenae and under a windmill in Athens (Is it better to leave the windmill or mine the coal?); MPit taken without losses; sell Paper to Shaka for 90 gold and map;

IBT – Guilds>Liberalism (after some negotiating); HC now has Banking and Ham has Philosophy; Shaka calls, insisting that I cancel all deals with Korea, which I do.

127 – Trade Music to Stalin for 50 gold; Sugar city and Huamanga fall (Hua has coal – Do we keep it or gift it?); trade Ham Education for Philosophy and extort Banking for peace from HC; Lisbon falls without losses – MoM is now ours.


NOTES

Expenses are increasing dramatically.

Planning to airlift some workers and chop marginal forests with others.

Going to be late taking out Ham. Waiting ‘til I can do it very quickly, as I think WW will prohibit maximum research once I declare on him.

Intend to research Liberalism>RxR, then Nationalism, Economics, and then the tech needed for Corporation, finally Corp

Not planning to change civics, though there are now many alternatives.

Save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217534&stc=1&d=1244843404

 

[PaulisKhan]

Nice successful set so far

We have coal under a windmill in Athens (Is it better to leave the windmill or mine the coal?)

Probably best to leave it as a windmill for now, but it wouldn't hurt to pre-mine if you had a worker up there.

We're well short on workers now, how many do Joao and Hamm have to capture?

Great job on securing banking and philo from trades.

 

[leif erikson]

CP!

Looking good. Nice work on trading and kicking HC's butt!

The only MM I see is perhaps we should work the Cottage 2-tiles west of Pharsalos instead of the coastal tile? Get those cottages to villages?

For the near future, I see we're building 4 Courthouse. Would be nice to see a Forbidden Palace in Lisbon.

Then we need Divine Right to build Versailles in former IncaLand?

We should consider killing off HC once the treaty runs out. Look at the Bab cities, too many red faces as they yearn to join their Motherland.