SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

mdy · Sep 16, 2009

I agree with building a galley in St Pete after the library whilst running 2 scientists. I think we should divert at least 1 worker to chopping in St Pete.

I can't see how roading the cows will help our logistics as we won't be moving any units in that direction for the foreseeable future.

We can't completly block a barb city forming on the island before we get a galley there, but moving the explorer 1S south help supress the chances of it happening.

It may be worth growing as far as size 8 before starting the settler (working the 5 resource tiles, plains hill, and 2 grass hills).

I would be tempted to revolt to the religion immediatly, as we will lose fewer hammers/gold that way. It could also give us more GE points in the capital if our religion spreads there.

babybluepants · Sep 16, 2009

Soirana said:
I clicked a bit on test saves. worker steal wise seems best to move longbow on easter slik, use DOW to get kicked out and steel worker. This happens before forest is chopped which is very wellcome.

I haven't been able to beat the forest chop... Maybe there are slight differences in our test files.

What do you guys think of scouting the peninsula north of Gandhi before DOW? If I take one LB to the GH on the NE tip, we should get a view of any more seafood around there. It would take 8t total to go there and get back into a good choking position, though.

One LB should just head for the silk right now.

shyuhe said:
I only suggested roading the cows to speed worker movement westward. I don't remember the math but I thought it speeds up the worker capabilities because of the tiles they can reach without roading the cow.

I'll test this. Off the top of my head it seems like we might be able to road it without losing any worker turns due to movement rate out of that spot, right?

mdy said:
I would be tempted to revolt to the religion immediatly, as we will lose fewer hammers/gold that way. It could also give us more GE points in the capital if our religion spreads there.

Do we want a GE? This was the reason I was thinking to hold off on the religion switch. I figure we're not getting any benefit from religion until the library in St Pete is up, and we might as well finish that 1t sooner.

I think both cities should squeeze in a CG warrior at some point soon. Moscow can probably do it in 1t with just library overflow. If we're growing Moscow to pop 8, we should be able to get another LB out, as well.

Gandhi does send LB's out pretty quickly... I wonder if having no garrison in St Pete, as opposed to a warrior makes a difference.

Soirana · Sep 16, 2009

deleted into oblivion

babybluepants · Sep 16, 2009

Well, let's discuss the worker actions then. For the next 12 turns, I was thinking:

Worker1 - finish pasturing cow (2t); mine GH gold (4t+1t); mine PH bw Mosc & StP (4t+1t) - finish t299

Worker2 - finish pasturing cow (2t); chop forest 2W of Mosc (3t+2t); mine GH 1E of StP (4t+1t) - finish t299

Worker3 - finish gold mine (4t); road gold (3t); mine GH SW of Mosc (4t+1t) - finish t299

Worker4 (stolen) - camp ivory - finish circa t298

I don't have access to the game at the moment, so I might be a bit off on turns required.

In the TS after this, I'd probably chop settler, farm FP, camp other ivory, road a bit southwards.

What are you guys thinking?

shyuhe · Sep 16, 2009

Sounds good for worker micro.

Soirana · Sep 16, 2009

deleted into oblivion

babybluepants · Sep 17, 2009

I did some testing further on (to mid-1500's) to see what Gandhi does. If I DOW in 4-5t as per plan, then take peace when he gets a catapult going, he doesn't settle his third city (iron north of Delhi) until after 1500. I guess the DOW really scrambles him. Other things to note: he bombed a GA towards the end of my session, taking back the FP after I took it early :mad:

; he demanded Educ from me, I gave it and got an immediate +5 in diplo (+4 trade +1 demand). The Taj in St Pete might be good after all. I got Taj + NE on consecutive turns after Nat, and GAge gives a nice boost going towards Lib. I stockpiled gold to about 600g, and that's enough for 100% slider past 1600, with REX. I had 5 cities, finishing uni in Moscow in 1560 and doing another settler in 8t after that.

The worker turnset I posted above is more or less correct on testing. Worker1 is 2t faster, so chopping a forest already, Worker4 is 1t faster so camping second ivory, the other two are exact. I'd appreciate some comments on it.

I would suggest going WB/Lib/Galley in St Pete and Lib/Warr/Warr/LB/Sett in Moscow. I'm getting the LB and growth to pop 8 on the same turn, with a chop already in the settler. This is beyond my turnset, but I think we should be switching to Caste and HR at about that point (1410-1420).

For DOW, I suggest moving LB to PH next to silk, and other LB to ivory. Then steal, move both LB's next to Delhi to cover worker, then place them both on the two forested hills around Delhi until we see a catapult.

If we were going for Taj, I would just keep running the engineer in Moscow until we pop a GE, then switch to a scientist. Otherwise, citizen specialist when we're 1t away from GE.

I think I'd start by playing just a few turns to where the LB gets to silk. That way we can see what Gandhi's up to before proceeding.

babybluepants · Sep 17, 2009

BTW, I did a quick graph estimate based on my test run to 1550, and our score graph fits somewhere right in the middle between Murky Waters and Maple Sporks. I think Murky's out-teching us to that point and they're popping borders quicker (see culture graph), but we'd get Lib and Const right after and quite a bit of pop growth from 3-4 new cities.

Soirana · Sep 17, 2009

deleted into oblivion

Soirana · Sep 17, 2009

deleted into oblivion

babybluepants · Sep 17, 2009

Soirana said:
Honestly i think any of us better wait for consensus [at least partial]. this team has rather bad history of unimproved playturns.

If you start by running workers for 2 turns to do doubtfull chops and produce doubtfull warriors on pacifism personally i might get seriously pissed off.

Chill, homeboy. :cool:

I didn't say I was gonna play the turns right now. Just posting an initial plan for discussion... I'll read your long post tonite and reply. I'm at work right now.

Soirana · Sep 17, 2009

deleted into oblivion

babybluepants · Sep 17, 2009

I only have a few minutes, so I'll try and cover as much as I can (you really run on, man):

Soirana said:
1340AD - Moscow jumps to size three. Might need manually put citizen on cows cause governor would do so only next turn [sorry for going into basics, but my previous team gaming experience tells major problems arise than guys disagree in what they believe to be self explanatory].

Yup. This always drives me crazy. :mad:

Soirana said:
Chop - lost point on movement [2t to get there]. All forest reachable on turn two go into capitol, which is A - 50% more hammers. B - potentially part of our settlers. C what we are rushing with chop? Workboat will be done before chop. Library...

St Pete is really short on hammers in this stage. IIRC, it's going at 6-8hpt, so a chop shaves roughly 10t of library and by extension galley, which lets us explore more in the north before we go for the iron/silver site, or what have you. I'm cool without chopping if that's the team consensus, but I feel that we're really stunting St Pete's development in favour of Moscow.

Soirana said:
Worker on first gold frees up. Roading that causes some worker turns loss [a bit too long to explain but i hope you get idea later, mainly due to losses on efeective movement]. Unluckily without anarachy switch to religion another gold can't be roaded in time. Although that is IMHO better option.
The only place you can put that guy without loosing turn on movement [i do not count climbing a hill lost turn] is plainhill our settlers started on. I would do so as we need that place mined.[/QUOTE]

It's mainly a happiness question as Moscow goes into pop 6-7, right? I'd much rather go straight for the PH, if it doesn't slow down our growth due to happy. This I have to figure out, no time now.

[quote="Soirana, post: 8467099"]Longbow - we can DOW now and get out of culture and get worker. Although on some tests i had two workers on silk next turn - these needs checking by other team members - but getting two workers makes hard difference.
For plans i will count on getting one worker this turn. It slightly differs on which silk you get it as being on eastern allows to get worker on phants turn earlier. Unluckily that does not depend on us.[/QUOTE]

I've only ever seen one worker. I've checked his builds every turn in a couple of tests, and haven't seen him building a worker this early... Eastern silk is much better, yes, for that reason. I'm assuming we'll get western, though, as it's the first one he comes upon leaving from his start position. If we get eastern, that's a bonus. This doesn't really affect the DOW, or anything we do.

[quote="Soirana, post: 8467099"]On other hand religion has macro problem --- without it we could sign peace in 1370AD and reopen borders at 1390AD allowing as settle through Ghandi. Otherwise we need keep in war untill we push settler to copper crab site. Also getting his map in 1370Ad gives us good scouting [option to settle towards his iron if that is good place or something like that].[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that we wait until after 1400, when we re-sign open borders? That might just be ok, but we should discuss it in more detail. Most of the gpp points in St Pete come after it's size 7-8 and running Caste, but it is nice to get an early jump on it...

[quote="Soirana, post: 8467099"]Moscow has micro question - by changin plaingol with imroved grassland hill we can shave a turn of growth [otherwise we end lacking 1 food [might be part of my test problems although][/QUOTE]

I ran into the same thing. I chose to work gold and delay growth, but I really don't know which is better.

[quote="Soirana, post: 8467099"]Aproxim 1435AD Settler done[/QUOTE]

That's when I founded Novgorod with my test, which means settler in 1430 with one chop. I'm pretty sure we need to grow to pop 8 first, to get optimal results. If you guys don't like cg warriors, we could probably squeeze in two LB's while growing or even just build wealth...

[quote="Soirana, post: 8467099"]Also arround 1450AD things get tricky as Ghandi might not sign peace [too much power, although building one elephant hcured this] unless you killed some scouts and it is hard to get to poistion from which you could end on other his side on peace before that.[/QUOTE]

I think we should sign peace much sooner than that...

[quote="Soirana, post: 8467099"]i think DOW on ghandi is needed - rather as wprker steal not choke, but even that seems to put him off pace for good. Quick DOW for quick peace seems best. But that is just me an my two centigrames of vodka.:[/QUOTE]

Agreed. The DOW seems to scramble him enough to give us a jump on settling. Since he's also likely going for iron first, we should have time to settle the continent.

That's it for now. I'll go over the second half of your post later...

Soirana · Sep 17, 2009

deleted into oblivion

babybluepants · Sep 18, 2009

Soirana said:
Worker steal - i tried from another save close result. Ghandi does not build worker yes, but he seems switch build when chop rolls in. 1-2 turns after he chops silk you can get two workers. [in one odf tests i had to kill explorer on workers]
Actually that also means it is better not go into square next to bombay as it will have finished catapult [likely]
Somehow i would risk to wait a bit. Worst case we loose worker turn, best we get spare worker. Risk is worth it.

I'll try this out. If possible, we should definitely risk losing a couple of worker turns for the chance of stealing two.

Ok, so I think we're actually getting very comparable runs in terms of micro, with settlers at exactly the same dates. I'd like to hear if other team members have anything else to contribute, before we put together a plan.

The two major questions seem to be diplo with Gandhi (re: religion) and location of future cities. Are you suggesting the copper site for third city?

Soirana · Sep 18, 2009

deleted into oblivion

mdy · Sep 18, 2009

St Pete is really short on hammers in this stage. IIRC, it's going at 6-8hpt, so a chop shaves roughly 10t of library and by extension galley, which lets us explore more in the north before we go for the iron/silver site, or what have you. I'm cool without chopping if that's the team consensus, but I feel that we're really stunting St Pete's development in favour of Moscow.

St Pete's primary purpose will be as our GP farm, and Moscow gets the bonus from CS so I don't think this is a problem.

Are you suggesting that we wait until after 1400, when we re-sign open borders? That might just be ok, but we should discuss it in more detail. Most of the gpp points in St Pete come after it's size 7-8 and running Caste, but it is nice to get an early jump on it...

We could remain at war until we can get a settler through. Gandhi probably won't build enough units to be a major problem, especially if we pillage his lands, and War Weariness should not be an issue either.

That's when I founded Novgorod with my test, which means settler in 1430 with one chop. I'm pretty sure we need to grow to pop 8 first, to get optimal results. If you guys don't like cg warriors, we could probably squeeze in two LB's while growing or even just build wealth...

I think that we should be O.K. with warriors as long as we build enough longbows to stop Gandhi attacking us, and to fogbust the area around our cities.

babybluepants · Sep 19, 2009

mdy said:
We could remain at war until we can get a settler through. Gandhi probably won't build enough units to be a major problem, especially if we pillage his lands, and War Weariness should not be an issue either.

I think quick peace is better. He will attack after a little bit and we're not really gaining much of anything by remaining at war.

He does build a second worker, as Soirana said. The problem is, the two workers are on adjacent tiles... He also seems to send one combat LB exploring in the direction of St Pete. If we send both our LB's over to steal two workers, we're exposed. Moscow can get an LB after a library, but not quickly enough to cover (Gandhi's original worker finishes the silk plantation a turn before the LB is online - and we need to move it to St Pete)... What do you guys suggest?

babybluepants · Sep 19, 2009

This is what I'm proposing to do for now. I'd like to play tmr night (36 hrs roughly), unless someone strongly objects.

Spoiler :

As you can see, I'm giving up the chop in St. Pete. I still think it's at least as good as the alternative in the long run, but it doesn't matter too much. I could also just stop one turn earlier, once we see his worker...

shyuhe · Sep 19, 2009

Sorry I'm still out of the loop but that plan looks good. I would like to settle behind Gandhi if possible but it's a little risky running a settler through. Gandhi with no metal or horses will only build LB's but he may still try attacking an escort unit on flat ground.

SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Similar threads